[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

wynott dunn posted:

operation gladius

# ? Jul 17, 2023 18:52

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# ? May 24, 2024 12:44

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

FrancisFukyomama posted:

has there been a good piece of King Arthur media that recontextualizes it in sub Roman Britain? I heard there was a French tv series where he�s an ex Roman officer who lives in a dilapidated villa and fights proto-scots bc they wanted to reuse the sets from HBO�s Rome

Mary Stewart's The Crystal Cave is historical, probably the best at fusing history and the traditional cycle. Bernard Cornwell's books are entirely historical - but lose some of the wonder imo. They're very good historical fiction nonetheless. Mists of Avalon is also set in the historical period but has a lot of 1970's feminism in it, so not for everyone. The Saxons = Patriarchy.

Mary Stewart's books are amazing though, they're well worth the read and the author clearly spent a lot of time both reading other Arthurian literature and studying Post-Roman Britain.

e: Civil War chat, France was far closer to entering the war, and did far more to prop the CSA up. There's a book both about the history and why we don't talk about it, France and the American Civil War: A Diplomatic History It also gets into the French invasion of Mexico, the extent to which they may have co-conspired with the CSA to do it and so on.

France's involvement in the American Civil War was critical to its unfolding, but the details of the European power's role remain little understood. Here, St�ve Sainlaude offers the first comprehensive history of French diplomatic engagement with the Union and the Confederate States of America during the conflict. Drawing on archival sources that have been neglected by scholars up to this point, Sainlaude overturns many commonly held assumptions about French relations with the Union and the Confederacy. As Sainlaude demonstrates, no major European power had a deeper stake in the outcome of the conflict than France.

Reaching beyond the standard narratives of this history, Sainlaude delves deeply into questions of geopolitical strategy and diplomacy during this critical period in world affairs. The resulting study will help shift the way Americans look at the Civil War and extend their understanding of the conflict in global context.

ee: The CSA did some very dumb poo poo with their blockade runners, I think USNI has a book about it that shows the goods of military value they actually moved were negligible and it was nearly all, as someone said last page ITT, consumer goods for the rich people that ran the CSA government. They therefore destroyed their state and society in the events leading to the war, in starting a war entirely out of their own interest, and in the actual conduct of the war.

Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 19:02 on Jul 17, 2023

# ? Jul 17, 2023 18:53

3: Aug 26, 2006; The Magic Number; College Slice

i think my favorite recent interpretation of arthur was in the comic once and future where UKIP does an arcane ritual to resurrect arthur to make britain great again and he immediately starts going on a murderous rampage because he's furious at the fact that britain has been taken over by saxon scum

he also rips boris johnson's head off

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:00

Nanomashoes: Aug 18, 2012

shouldnt he be saying �turkish kings�

maybe roman, as constantinople was the capital at the time

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:06

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Lostconfused posted:

If you track Ukrainian nationalist insurgents back to the Polish, then they're only 2 years off from confederacy.

I have a feeling the coming debacle is going to eclipse what is happened before easily, but we will see.

Frosted Flake posted:

Mary Stewart's The Crystal Cave is historical, probably the best at fusing history and the traditional cycle. Bernard Cornwell's books are entirely historical - but lose some of the wonder imo. They're very good historical fiction nonetheless. Mists of Avalon is also set in the historical period but has a lot of 1970's feminism in it, so not for everyone. The Saxons = Patriarchy.

Mary Stewart's books are amazing though, they're well worth the read and the author clearly spent a lot of time both reading other Arthurian literature and studying Post-Roman Britain.

e: Civil War chat, France was far closer to entering the war, and did far more to prop the CSA up. There's a book both about the history and why we don't talk about it, France and the American Civil War: A Diplomatic History It also gets into the French invasion of Mexico, the extent to which they may have co-conspired with the CSA to do it and so on.

France's involvement in the American Civil War was critical to its unfolding, but the details of the European power's role remain little understood. Here, St�ve Sainlaude offers the first comprehensive history of French diplomatic engagement with the Union and the Confederate States of America during the conflict. Drawing on archival sources that have been neglected by scholars up to this point, Sainlaude overturns many commonly held assumptions about French relations with the Union and the Confederacy. As Sainlaude demonstrates, no major European power had a deeper stake in the outcome of the conflict than France.

Reaching beyond the standard narratives of this history, Sainlaude delves deeply into questions of geopolitical strategy and diplomacy during this critical period in world affairs. The resulting study will help shift the way Americans look at the Civil War and extend their understanding of the conflict in global context.

ee: The CSA did some very dumb poo poo with their blockade runners, I think USNI has a book about it that shows the goods of military value they actually moved were negligible and it was nearly all, as someone said last page ITT, consumer goods for the rich people that ran the CSA government. They therefore destroyed their state and society in the events leading to the war, in starting a war entirely out of their own interest, and in the actual conduct of the war.

The question is what the French would actually invest in considering they were already in Mexico, had just fought a war with the Austrians, and the Prussians were just over the border. It is arguable the French were simply overstreched as it was (and it would come to fruition in a couple years later around Metz.) The British were not ready for a dedicated land war against the North, and opening southern ports would likely require costly engagements with the Union navy. The British weren't interested in north America either and honestly anything that took away from protecting their route to India was going to be a needless distraction.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 19:18 on Jul 17, 2023

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:13

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Ardennes posted:

I have a feeling the coming debacle is going to eclipse what is happened before easily, but we will see.

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:14

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

It all depends on where this mess ends, but building your entire national identity around a war of extermination against the russians and then doing constant terror strikes against civilian population kind of makes it look less likely that there will be a Ukraine as they see it at the end of it.

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:23

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1680993032731230208?s=20

quote:

❗️Russian President Vladimir Putin vows retaliation for a new strike on the Crimean Bridge, calling the attack a 'senseless crime that has no military significance'

Read: https://on.rt.com/cff8

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:29

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

tatankatonk posted:

"meaning is passing from the world" because most people are not english & have no interest in ancient english myths and because they haven't read a 70 year old series about oxbridge sophomores disguised as knights and their dorm room bullshit sessions

yeah, the world is consuming american slop now.

>wow modi is like thandos.

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:30

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

Lostconfused posted:

It all depends on where this mess ends, but building your entire national identity around a war of extermination against the russians and then doing constant terror strikes against civilian population kind of makes it look less likely that there will be a Ukraine as they see it at the end of it.

Well no, the pre-war Ukraine is dead and isn't coming back: there'll be no return to the shaky cohabitation of the pro-Russian and pro-Kiev factions. The future for Ukraine is either partition (if Russia wins), or ethnic cleansing (if Ukraine wins).

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:32

GrevMoror: Sep 12, 2022

And why would it be ethnic cleasing if Ukraine wins?

They do not have a history of ethnic cleansing since it became independent as its neighbor have.

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:41

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

If it is goofy, but a big part of whole Turtledove's thing was that if the North lost at Antietam, the war would be over once France and Britain would join in. I guess at the end of the day, he is selling books. The CSA was screwed from the get go.

-----

Btw, it came up earlier about why across the war, the Russians haven't just continued to bomb Ukrainian bridges when...I don't think they wanted the Ukrainian army and its manpower to be bottled up west of the Dnieper. This whole exercise has been about grinding them down bit by bit until not only were they depleted on the frontlines, but they couldn't even find people to replace them. All of this needed to go on this long.

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:41

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

https://twitter.com/LuffyDFella/status/1680975933791166464?s=20

she was a teacher then, she's supposed to be at the school

# ? Jul 17, 2023 19:43

supersnowman: Oct 3, 2012