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ESporks post reminded me, that whole line of "dress how you want, do what you want" is typically not a real show of support. It's not specific to NPD people it's a dodge that allows them to seem like they're not bad people by paying lip service to an idea since they don't usually have to confront it meaningfully in their lives. Follows the same logic of "I don't care if you're black, brown, blue or purple" types of colorblindness comments. These types are the first to get really defensive and mad if pressed at all.
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Jan 6, 2022 18:11
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bee posted:My mum said something similar once, that she shouldn't have to ask me to do things My mother had at least a few screaming-crying meltdowns at me, like full on teeth-clenched spit flying rage meltdowns, because She Should Not Have To Tell Me To Do Things The time I'm remembering specifically was because I hadn't vacuumed the living room that day. I was supposed to vacuum the entire house every day, and I had monday through wednesday but I forgot that thursday. IIRC she was so angry because she was convinced I had done it on purpose, because I was sitting around all day doing nothing. I was eleven. That is/was one of the biggest difficulties in dealing with my mother. She treated me like I"m an adult mastermind personally tormenting her since I was 3 or 4, but she's expected me to act like a kid on demand up into my late 30s. Obviously in retrospect, whatever is convenient for her insane rear end. Also tell is specific - there was never asking. At all, not once, not ever. I actually cannot remember my mother asking me to do anything directly, such as "would you clean up your room?' or 'could you do the dishes?' And not in the oblique way other posters have mentioned, she just never phrased anything as a question. It was always 'clean your room' or 'mow the lawn'. I can remember asking my dad to at least ask me, and he made it a point not to because he doesn't ask me to do anything, he tells me. My mother is a monster and deserves all the suffering in the world, but in this tiny aspect I feel bad for her. She's the one who flipped out at an eleven year old for vacuuming the living room four days out of five. I wish I could say that I can't imagine getting that angry over anything, but I've caught myself quite a few times about to launch into a rage tirade 
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Jan 6, 2022 18:35
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I know this isn't really an LGBTQ thread, but this hilarious skit captures it perfectly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5L3lmNh7fU "I don't care how you dress, how you look, who you have sex with..... As long as I don't have to actually think about it in any capacity" it's effectively don't ask don't tell on a personal level. If someone like this is made aware of your sexuality you are "rubbing it in their face" That video perfectly encapsulates my mother's level of support. eSporks fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 18:37
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eSporks posted:"I don't care how you dress, how you look, who you have sex with..... As long as I don't have to actually think about it in any capacity" it's effectively don't ask don't tell on a personal level. If someone like this is made aware of your sexuality you are "rubbing it in their face" Overhearing my mom crying in the other room to my dad, “I don’t care, but why does she have to look like a dyke?” Because I was wearing a belt buckle my late grandfather gave me. She has couched it in “I just don’t want you doing things that put you in danger” terms before, but it’s really more a case of her thinking her friends would be embarrassed if they saw me. She doesn’t even LIKE her friends.
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Jan 6, 2022 19:26
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Abusers will always see you at your weakest, and act accordingly. Sometimes I think we need to normalise elder abuse.
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Jan 7, 2022 10:11
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Vampire Panties posted:She treated me like I"m an adult mastermind personally tormenting her since I was 3 or 4, but she's expected me to act like a kid on demand up into my late 30s. That is exactly how I would describe what mine is like with me. I'm somehow dedicating my time gleefully plotting ways to hurt her while also being a completely useless human being incapable of feeling emotion or noticing the world around me.
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Jan 7, 2022 10:21
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Picnic Princess posted:That is exactly how I would describe what mine is like with me. I'm somehow dedicating my time gleefully plotting ways to hurt her while also being a completely useless human being incapable of feeling emotion or noticing the world around me.  You are a literal cartoon supervillain to them.
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Jan 7, 2022 10:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:
Supervillains are at least powerful/smart/competent. You are literally Team Rocket to them.
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Jan 7, 2022 14:32
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The infuriating roundabout questions seem familiar. I think I weaponised my autistic literalism from pretty early on and just said no. Malicious compliance is fun, though I'm probably lucky my mother tends to give up pretty quickly if something might actually require effort. this is The Way
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Jan 7, 2022 15:11
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Picnic Princess posted:That is exactly how I would describe what mine is like with me. I'm somehow dedicating my time gleefully plotting ways to hurt her while also being a completely useless human being incapable of feeling emotion or noticing the world around me. we are unfeeling hurtful clones, hello fellow robot
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Jan 7, 2022 15:15
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thats a pretty bog standard npd way to look at the world because its another form of deflection. they spend all their time obsessing over other people and how they are perceived by others and on and on, so clearly every one else must be doing that too (because this is the way i think and i am always smart and right which means other people have to think exactly like me!!!). you can never be late to an npd persons party because of traffic, its because you want to make them look like the worst party host in history to destroy all their social capital and get them removed from the friend group. you cant make an offhanded comment that you didnt perfectly think through first, that was a predator drone strike aimed directly at their ego and you planned for weeks to get this chance to harm them. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY WOULD DO TO YOU.
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Jan 7, 2022 17:33
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Paper Lion posted:thats a pretty bog standard npd way to look at the world because its another form of deflection. they spend all their time obsessing over other people and how they are perceived by others and on and on, so clearly every one else must be doing that too (because this is the way i think and i am always smart and right which means other people have to think exactly like me!!!). you can never be late to an npd persons party because of traffic, its because you want to make them look like the worst party host in history to destroy all their social capital and get them removed from the friend group. you cant make an offhanded comment that you didnt perfectly think through first, that was a predator drone strike aimed directly at their ego and you planned for weeks to get this chance to harm them. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY WOULD DO TO YOU. Similar to: "You telling me that my abusive behavior hurt you made me feel bad, so I'm the real victim and you should apologize to me."
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Jan 7, 2022 18:20
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Some people don't understand that the reason they feel bad is their conscience, and not a sign that they've been wronged.
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Jan 7, 2022 19:56
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The most dastardly villainous thing anyone ever did to my mom was actually my MIL. I wanted to go to the farm the just bought for the weekend, and his mom wrote my mom a letter to assure my mom not to worry, they're good people and I would be safe. My mom interpreted it as "Your kid isn't safe with you so we're rescuing them from you. You're inferior and we're better." And she's believed that for over twenty years and still does. Even after multiple people explained otherwise numerous times, including my aunt, the one who said that I've been faking my personality this whole time to manipulate my inlaws into liking me. The aunt who I have seen in person 3 whole times in the past 20 years.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:29
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Picnic Princess posted:The most dastardly villainous thing anyone ever did to my mom was actually my MIL. I wanted to go to the farm the just bought for the weekend, and his mom wrote my mom a letter to assure my mom not to worry, they're good people and I would be safe. Have you told this story before in another thread? Its ringing a bell and I remember it going on and getting even crazier.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:31
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Yep, probably this one. Possibly elsewhere too because it's just too wild to not talk about. Every time I think about it all, I'm just total 
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Jan 7, 2022 21:48
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blunt for century posted:Similar to: "You telling me that my abusive behavior hurt you made me feel bad, so I'm the real victim and you should apologize to me." My two (Boomer) aunts are exactly like this, and my mom enabled it my entire life. They are the worst bullies - abusive as gently caress, yet play the victims when confronted. "They didn't mean it! You know they love you" CONTENT WARNING She defended them even after learning they're pedophiles. She straight up went to family events and birthdays (knowing they had molested me) to celebrate with them. I went NC with her in November after she defended her husband when he tried to molest my niece. I called mom that night, freaking out (I was legit afraid Mike would kill her) She proceeded to tell me what "actually happened" - just lies and obfuscation and victim blaming. I was triggered as gently caress, like outside my body triggered. I hurried off the phone and broke down crying - it was loving surreal. She's texted a few times with absolutely NO mention of ANYTHING! I haven't responded at all, but she wished me a "happy birthday" last week. That was it. Just like it was a normal day of the week, la di da. She's hoping if she just pretends like it never happened, everyone will just let it be swept under the rug. I'm making sure that will never happen - I let my cousin know the deal, my other cousin sent my niece a stun gun and mace, and my brother has pursued charges. It's all generational fighting now - my Boomer mom and her Boomer garbage siblings vs. their own kids
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Jan 7, 2022 22:00
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Dirt Road Junglist posted:Overhearing my mom crying in the other room to my dad, “I don’t care, but why does she have to look like a dyke?” blunt for century posted:Similar to: "You telling me that my abusive behavior hurt you made me feel bad, so I'm the real victim and you should apologize to me." My sister actually said such thinking she was making a point.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:02
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virtual hugs for everyone, that poo poo is terrible
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Jan 7, 2022 22:53
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Like how my mom has been disappointed in me for years for not asking how my uncle has been feeling after he was diagnosed with cancer. The only thing I care about is whether he's dead yet or not because he's a serial multi-generational child molester. The only feelings of his I care about is how badly he's suffering. But I didn't want to ask about those things because they're rude. So I just never ask about him period. And that makes me a monster, because "hE's FaMiLy". And look. I am a very forgiving person, overly empathetic, major people pleaser, only wants to get along with everyone. But some crimes are unforgivable. And if the perpetrator never atones or apologizes, and keeps behaving like it was okay or never happened, you bet your loving rear end I will never EVER forgive them. Even if it makes other people hate me too. That is a hill I will happily die on. But I think the thing about this whole situation that has caused me the most pain and hurt is knowing my mom loves her own rapist more than she loves me. That's a loving hard reality to process. Even though I prefer to be hated than have a relationship with someone like him. It still stings like a gently caress.
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Jan 8, 2022 00:40
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This and the Boomer thread are basically two halves of the same whole. I feel like this inability to change your opinion about someone you trust (they're family, therefore the "in" group, blood is thicker than water nonsense) is why we had so much fuel to the stranger danger and satanic panic fires. Statistically the simpler solution is that it's someone you know doing horrible poo poo but it's much easier to project your fears onto the unknown than face the fact that you know someone that's actually terrible. There's also an element of acclimation due to it not being exceptional. If you know a family member that's been horrible your whole life "that's just how they are". Reminds me of the whole plane crash vs. car accident thing. I know numerous people that are afraid of flying because wherever a crash happens it's this huge exceptional thing with tons of news around it. It's definitely tragic but pretty much everyone I know including myself has been in a car accident or had someone close die in one but because it's so common people just shrug and accept it as fact. You can get used to anything I guess, but not everyone realizes you don't have to.
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Jan 8, 2022 00:56
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There has been, thankfully, more efforts to take a more pragmatic approach to threats these days with younger generations. I observe millennial parents are far more likely to be cautious around their own family members in regard to their children. They tend to hold them to higher standards and seem to put more effort to break cycles of abuse. Not forcing hugs on children if they don't want them is another thing more common with younger generations of parents. They also tend to spend more actual time with their children vs their parents generation. Boomer parents often touted how they and their kids were free to go out and play (blaming other, more liberal parents for why we can't do that anymore by their bizarro logic). But the reality is that letting your kid do whatever is not the same as fostering independence. It's a very passive approach that doesn't require any investment of time or effort whatsoever by the parent.
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Jan 8, 2022 01:34
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Panfilo posted:There has been, thankfully, more efforts to take a more pragmatic approach to threats these days with younger generations. A few years ago when "don't make your kids hug if they don't want to" came out I remember people FREAKING OUT about how this was preventing children from hugging. Like, they literally could not read the words that were in front of them. It was a situation where people really need to be shamed hideously for loving up so bad, on the basis that if it hurts to be stupid, they might learn to stop being stupid. But the "they're trying to stop kids from hugging anybody!" response was so widespread, and so consistent, that I'm sure there was something weird going on in people's heads.
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Jan 8, 2022 08:38
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They refuse to acknowledge children are people and not toys.
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Jan 8, 2022 10:37
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trickybiscuits posted:A few years ago when "don't make your kids hug if they don't want to" came out I remember people FREAKING OUT about how this was preventing children from hugging. Like, they literally could not read the words that were in front of them. It was a situation where people really need to be shamed hideously for loving up so bad, on the basis that if it hurts to be stupid, they might learn to stop being stupid. I feel like this exact dynamic is at play across...literally every big and small dumb culture war flare up, ever. Like just as a random example, "saying Happy Holidays can be more inclusive to those who celebrate things that aren't Christmas  " immediately mutating into "YOU'LL BE DRAGGED FROM YOUR HOME BY JACKBOOTED THUGS IF YOU EVEN DARE SAY MERRY CHRISTMAS, REMEMBER WHEN THIS WAS A FREE COUNTRY!!!!!  "
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Jan 8, 2022 13:16
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Picnic Princess posted:That is exactly how I would describe what mine is like with me. I'm somehow dedicating my time gleefully plotting ways to hurt her while also being a completely useless human being incapable of feeling emotion or noticing the world around me. Argh my mom is the same way. Apparently I was an extremely manipulative and evil/plotting baby/toddler/small child. Every time she says this I think about that King of the Hill clip where Jimmy Carter incredulously goes "He HATED a BABY?" in response to Cotton Hill saying he's always hated Hank, and feel a little bit better I had a pretty sweet holiday and I'm looking forward to spending future xmases with my girlfriend! Last time I visited my parents for the holidays, I spent one morning making coffee, taking my meds, and checking the internet in the guest room, and my mom blew the gently caress up at me because apparently I was supposed to immediately come knocking on her bedroom door when I woke up, and I was being impolite by spending time alone?! They also had an actual checklist of things they wanted to do and talk to me about and got upset when I didn't want to do scheduled stuff literally from the minute I woke up til I went to bed, which was super loving frustrating. Before COVID, I asked if I could bring my girlfriend next xmas and my mom said it would be "too expensive to feed her", even though my mom is a literal, actual (married-in) millionaire.  I called her bluff on it and she said "well we COULD feed her but we'd have to eat lower quality meals." She's super loving mean about my gf and I have no goddamn idea why. I hope she rots in a ditch.  Anyway I hope y'all had as pleasant a holiday as possible  You're all the best and deserve peaceful and happy times!
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Jan 8, 2022 17:15
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John Murdoch posted:I feel like this exact dynamic is at play across...literally every big and small dumb culture war flare up, ever. Like just as a random example, "saying Happy Holidays can be more inclusive to those who celebrate things that aren't Christmas She agrees with happy holidays, and sees why it's better, she just "doesn't understand why everyone has to be a villian just for saying Merry Christmas, and do we really need to punish people for saying Merry Christmas?" I usually tell her she's fighting ghosts.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:52
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Picnic Princess posted:But I think the thing about this whole situation that has caused me the most pain and hurt is knowing my mom loves her own rapist more than she loves me. That's a loving hard reality to process. Even though I prefer to be hated than have a relationship with someone like him. It still stings like a gently caress. You just put truth to something I've been struggling to articulate. I didn't recognize it in quite those terms till I read your post. My mom loves my rapists more than she loves me. That loving hurts, but also enrages me. I'm so sorry for what you've endured 
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Jan 8, 2022 18:43
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Panfilo posted:Boomer parents often touted how they and their kids were free to go out and play (blaming other, more liberal parents for why we can't do that anymore by their bizarro logic). But the reality is that letting your kid do whatever is not the same as fostering independence. It's a very passive approach that doesn't require any investment of time or effort whatsoever by the parent. Are you saying that playdates are better for children than running loose? I'm a Boomer, and have Boomer brain, but I'm boggled that letting the kids run around the neighborhood unattended is bad for them. It's bad if your only interaction with the children is at suppertime, but some independent time is also good. e: I also think that Boomers were the parents of Stranger Danger, so it's our fault that people got scared of unsupervised children.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:49
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Arsenic Lupin posted:... what. My experience is that a lot of Boomer/GenX parents got conditioned into treating parenting like a pre-flight checklist or something. Do X, do Y, do Z, and everything should be perfect. Skip one of the steps, and you're an unforgivable monster. It's not so much about how you supervise your kids, it's the notion that parenting is an impersonal sequence of actions that apply regardless of circumstance. As long as you talk to your children and listen to what they say, everything's fine. Ignore what your children, pick up invariant rules for parenting from Dr. Spock or listicles or something, and you get most of the parents in this thread.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:10
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I read the post more to mean that completely unsupervised time alone ("go play in a drainage ditch or whatever, just come back by sundown") is often negligent parenting but framed as giving people independence. The over correction of helicopter parents and obsessively monitored play dates is not great either. There's a difference between letting your kids walk home with friends and going out to do stuff vs. getting drunk and letting your kids play in the pool by themselves.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:27
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Credulous Skeptic posted:You just put truth to something I've been struggling to articulate. I didn't recognize it in quite those terms till I read your post. I just want to address this in another way, I've been using this thread to kind of talk through and process my own thoughts about how broader psychology plays into the deeply personal ways it affects our own lives. Narcissist and other people that deny reality like this are textbook compartmentalized thinkers. They see someone they like being accused of horrible stuff and they tell themselves "there's no way that's true" or "it's not a big deal, it's such a small part of their personality and they're so great otherwise". It's easy for them to handwave away. Meanwhile we, their kids, live with them. We're a constant source of disappointment because we can't live up to their imaginary expectations of us. So in their hosed up calculus they really do like the awful person more than us because they've got 'a few strikes' against them and we've got hundreds (because they're keeping some kind of transactional tally). I remember during the Brock Turner case, his father and friends were saying absolutely vile poo poo about "why should we condemn this man's bright future for a few minutes of action" and they really think he's the victim here because being confronted with their horrible family member made them feel bad therefore... and on and on it goes as the pattern shows in this thread. I hate it, but that's they way they're wired and they can't or won't change or apologize. They choose to side with saving face and retaining social capital (what would the neighbors think???). I've spent years trying to reason with my own mom, who is a fairly mild case, but it's never going to happen. I wish it wasn't so common for people :/
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Jan 8, 2022 19:48
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Arsenic Lupin posted:... what. Also every kid is different. Plenty of people here mentoned being shy homebodies so being forced to play outside with neighbors they didn't like might not really feel like a privilege. But a lot of boomer/abusive parents have this one size fits all approach to things. And having your kid play outside unsupervised is kind of easy mode on the parent's part. There's also some degree of projection that can happen too. The same negligent lazy parents can often be the first to throw shade on other parents (look at how much poo poo the parents got when their kid fell in Harambe's enclosure for example). There's also a lot of defensiveness that goes on too. With the Happy Holidays example, they take that statement as a tacit attack on saying Merry Christmas. A parent that doesn't let their kid eat sugary snacks at home might make another parent feel defensive if they let their kid eat lucky charms every morning.
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Jan 8, 2022 20:17
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When I was a kid we would play outside unsupervised and nothing bad ever happened to me.  Sure my brother was molested, but nothing bad happened to me. Honestly with the pandemic I find it hard to fault parents for allowing young kids outside unsupervised. There are risks but kids need to socialize and there aren't a lot of good alternatives right now.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:55
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Ghost Leviathan posted:They refuse to acknowledge children are people and not toys. I'm pretty sure that's how my step-mom and step-sister see me, not as a person but as a thing. The last time I saw them in person was almost 2 years ago. We had breakfast where my step-sister was working and they told me my dad died. I hadn't had contact with my dad for at least 3 years before he died, when he kicked me out to live with his new gf. He was a narcissistic dick and my only regret was not getting to tell him off once before he died. It was a very weird moment when my step-mom told me he'd died and I tried to process that and then she kept repeating the date like I would care? And then my step-sister came back around smiling and asking if I had cried? It just felt very manipulative and like they wanted to see me weak and hurt and they were thrown because I didn't cry or react. All of this while in loving public in a restaurant. It was creepily clear they didn't care about my feelings or me, they just wanted some kind of drama for their own entertainment. I haven't talked to them since. They are technically my only family. My mom died when I was 8, I'm single, my dad cut off all of my mom's family and his own when I was a child. It's scary and freeing to be so alone but every time I think about contacting them I just think about how gleefully they were waiting for me to break down in the middle of a loving restaurant just for their own amusement and gossip. Joke's on them, I'm glad the fucker's dead. And there's no way I could explain my feelings to them, they would deny or make up poo poo to make them look better. The only thing I can do is not engage, ever.
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Jan 10, 2022 13:12
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Snyderman posted:I read the post more to mean that completely unsupervised time alone ("go play in a drainage ditch or whatever, just come back by sundown") is often negligent parenting but framed as giving people independence. The over correction of helicopter parents and obsessively monitored play dates is not great either. The modern equivalent of this is to not let your kids outside but also not pay any actual attention to them, and just throw consumer electronics at them to keep them quiet, and that's how you get a generation raised by video games and unsupervised internet access who are used to receiving blank stares or arbitrary punishment from their parents whenever they try to bring up any kind of problem.
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Jan 10, 2022 13:21
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The "play outside" thing seems to more apply to kids who grow up outside the city, I was never allowed outside unsupervised because "outside unsupervised" was like, a major intersection by the highway
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Jan 10, 2022 14:20
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I just want to say as someone with a 5 month old who grew up with parents that weren't as awful as some of these stories but still caused a lot of harm growing up, I appreciate everyone sharing their stories. I like to try and make a mental note to cram in the back of my brain to NOT gently caress up my kid. On the flip side as much as he gets on my nerves sometimes (cuz, you know, BABY), I can't ever imagine myself lashing out or holding grudges for their whole life, or even not realizing that "yes, this is an individual person, just not grown yet".
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Jan 10, 2022 17:06
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Empty sea that sounds rough but I think you're probably doing the right thing. I don't get these anti-people who seem to thrive off negatively and exist in this horrible states. I want 2022 to be the year I think less about this stuff but must admit I'm feeling the pressure or fog pushing me atm. Father in law was confronted about serious domestic abuse last year and has done gently caress all other than help destroy my partners relationship with their mother right around the time we've had a child. I have this feeling that I want to kick off arguments with everyone who has been keeping this poo poo under wraps over the decades, or ruin a social occasion by declaring it all out. But I know realistically that's all just gonna backfire and make my families life worse or push the victim further away. Mosdef helps to vent though! I wish there was more you could do in these situations but I think the best plan is to stop thinking of a way to try and help and get better at discarding thoughts when it comes into my head.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:28
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Lieutenant Dan posted:The "play outside" thing seems to more apply to kids who grow up outside the city, I was never allowed outside unsupervised because "outside unsupervised" was like, a major intersection by the highway
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Jan 10, 2022 18:50
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