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mlmp08 posted:Crossposting my question in AI: I didn't take the museum tour, but I did splash out the 8$ for the AMARG boneyard bus tour. You'll probably be able to hop back and forth, but if the bus is full, I feel like the route we took I would rather have been on the lefthand side of the bus. There are also a number of private/civilian junk yards on the south side of the AMARG facility where you can get out of the car and take pictures not-through-tinted glass, and maybe get a chance to crawl around on some stuff if you go to the office and are maybe interested in buying a scrap S-3 or Albatross. They fly F-16's, A-10s, and fancy C-130's out of Davis-Monthan, so you might also want to pack along a long lens to shoot some stuff in flight. As far as stuff to see at the museum proper, they have a bunch of cool jet/radial compound thrust stuff, like Neptunes and Packets and such out back behind the WWII building, as well as some graffiti-painted up art-project DC-3's and Saberliners, which are worth seeing. Don't know if the golfcart tour gets back there or not.
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Dec 13, 2013 01:32
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Cold war Life post: The story of a full KGB Colonel who was caught in the late 50s. Interesting as the story of a real-life master spy; slightly depressing as it reminds me how far we've fallen when it comes to legality and national security concerns.
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Dec 13, 2013 03:35
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Nebakenezzer posted:Cold war Life post: The story of a full KGB Colonel who was caught in the late 50s. Interesting as the story of a real-life master spy; slightly depressing as it reminds me how far we've fallen when it comes to legality and national security concerns. On a tangential note, check out the ads and the section in that issue about "THE FUUUTTTTTUUUUURRRREEEEE." Jet cars and plastic houses and foam furniture and nuclear everything...other than the racism and misogyny the '50s loving owned. That was a really good article... no kidding on the legality bit. "I'm a spy of the country that poses a legitimate existential threat to your country and you've just caught me...I'd like a lawyer, and not just any lawyer, I'd like the best lawyer in the city please." "Why of course, anything else would be un-American."
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Dec 13, 2013 09:49
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People I know who lived in the 50s will readily reminisce about how they quite enjoyed that decade. Who wouldn't? The Cold War was still gearing up to the great Brezhnyev-Andropov deep freeze and, while definitely in play on a very real and very somber level, wasn't as near and frightening as it would become when scary acronyms like MAD, ICBM and MIRV became part of the daily dialogue. Newfound wealth, work for everyone for a good pay, progress and optimism and reconstruction from the great war, bobbysocks and pointed busts...
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Dec 13, 2013 10:55
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If you were white and not a woman, and didn't farm, sure.
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Dec 13, 2013 10:57
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Nebakenezzer posted:Cold war Life post: The story of a full KGB Colonel who was caught in the late 50s. Interesting as the story of a real-life master spy; slightly depressing as it reminds me how far we've fallen when it comes to legality and national security concerns. That article paints him in a very flattering light; I must admit, I wonder if that wasn't deliberate, as if to say "this man is a brilliant intellectual and a good thing too, otherwise he never would have been able to fool us".
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Dec 13, 2013 12:06
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evil_bunnY posted:If you were white and not a woman, and didn't farm, sure. I was talking about normal people, dumbass  On the other hand, farmers got tractors and machines, women got dishwashers and tumbledryers, and black people, eh, got to, ehm, vote a few years later? But indeed, point taken.
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Dec 13, 2013 14:36
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Black people got to potentially die in Fulda side by side with whitey. If repealing DADT is a blow for gay rights then that counts 
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Dec 13, 2013 14:45
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Warbadger posted:So there's a chance I'll end up in Moscow for work at some point. I'll probably hit the Kubinka tank museum, are there any other spots along those lines I should check out? I'm thinking about a quick trip in May. I've penciled in: Monino- pretty much the ultimate cold war aircraft museum. Found a website that detailed how to travel there by yourself. Central Museum of the Armed Forces- nice collection of armor and aircraft, their trophies from WW2, and it will be interesting to see the cold war displays from the other side Park Pobedy/Poklonnya Hill- victory memorial with a naval\aircraft\armor collected to the south of the memorial. Looks like some very well displayed stuff, and also has a huge-assed rail car mounted gun. Space museum- looks dusty and old school, some cool hardware on display There is a submarine and Ekranoplane on display along the river. Have not been myself, this is just the list of things I want to see.
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Dec 13, 2013 15:48
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Forums Terrorist posted:Black people got to potentially die in Fulda side by side with whitey. If repealing DADT is a blow for gay rights then that counts What time did the Big Fulda Gap Tank Battle come up, anyways? Wait, I should check up on that myself. Wow. So apparently, the first time "Fulda Gap" comes up is already in 1951, and then from 1975 and onwards the USSR seems to be transitioning its war planning to circumvent the entire option using Operational Maneuvre Groups. I though this was a much later thing - early-mid 60s and onwards. The more you know.
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Dec 13, 2013 16:18
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Oh god I'm triggered  Where did you get that about Operational Maneuver Groups? They were an operational reserve concept for the Front, meant for fluid exploitation of breakthroughs, and not targeted against any particular force grouping or terrain feature AFAIK.
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Dec 13, 2013 18:06
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Plain old Wikipedia. I have to try to look further into it.
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Dec 13, 2013 18:36
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The cite for that line is this: http://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=30402 Start on page 101, "The Renaissance in American Strategy and the Ending of the Great Cold War" to see where the cite comes in - it's on 105. The actual text says quote:The main task of these OMGs was to penetrate deep into West Germany to disrupt the command and control of NATO forces and to seize the remaining nuclear stores, airfields, and key logistic points. Special Forces airlifted behind NATO lines would help them in these tasks. Other OMGs would encircle the main NATO units, but do so much faster than Soviet forces could have done in the seventies. The intent was for Soviet forces to reach the Channel in less than 20 days—and without using nuclear weapons. There's more in here about AT missiles, aerial and artillery bombardment, etc etc, but basically some Wikipedia nerd misconstrued this as "outflank the Fulda Gap" when it actually seems to mean "blitz through it and every other route into the rest of Europe so fast NATO can't react quickly enough." It's not like they could just invent a new land route into West Germany. e: also the article never says Fulda Gap. Psion fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Dec 13, 2013 |
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Dec 13, 2013 19:12
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I am absolutely loving that acronym. "The OMGs are coming!"
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Dec 13, 2013 19:24
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Sjurygg posted:Plain old Wikipedia. I have to try to look further into it. That was a bit of a rhetorical question from my side because, full disclosure: I've posted about this stuff before. Keep in mind that note [10], an article in Military Review (pp. 101-110, PDF), from Wiki doesn't say anything about the Fulda Gap per se. Only the map on page 104 alludes to it, and that probably wasn't originally drawn up by the author of the article himself, but lifted wholesale from one of the FOIAed CIA reports on Soviet Military Developments (or at least it looks a lot like the kind of maps they used). The article itself isn't that well sourced either, nor do I agree with its analysis, but hey apparently a visiting professor at LSE can get away with a lot of stuff these days. e;f;b Koesj fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Dec 13, 2013 |
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Dec 13, 2013 19:33
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Caconym posted:I am absolutely loving that acronym. You just know WTF is a military acronym somewhere...
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Dec 13, 2013 20:37
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Shithead Deluxe posted:You just know WTF is a military acronym somewhere... Wire, Terrain Following
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Dec 13, 2013 20:44
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Shithead Deluxe posted:You just know WTF is a military acronym somewhere... It's how we could spot any RTO, "WTF over"
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Dec 13, 2013 20:46
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quote:wikipedia keep in mind that wikipedia is a cluster gently caress in general and the "citations" frequently point to either broken links or the attributions are terribly abused by the people who are referencing them, either out of ignorance or through a desire to make a particular point for whatever political/spergy/ideological reason they have. It's OK if all you need to know is roughly what year the Schmalkaldic League went to war, but god awful terrible if you're looking for anything more detailed than the broadest kind of general knowledge.
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Dec 13, 2013 20:51
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Wikipedia also has a hilarious/depressing tendency to generate tons of confirmation bias. I've found the math articles to be reasonably accurate though, maybe because the only people who have opinions on eigenvectors and equivalence relations or whatever actually know what they are.
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Dec 13, 2013 20:55
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Funnily enough military history articles are generally well tended for by Wikipedia's average standards.
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Dec 13, 2013 21:15
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Koesj posted:Funnily enough military history articles are generally well tended for by Wikipedia's average standards. Usually they get the broad strokes right just because of the legions of mil hist spergs tending them, but check out the citations. American wikipedia's biggest weakness, by loving far, is that it has a huge bias towards using online sources and an even huger bias towards free ones. For whatever reason they treat "publishing" something online as being a relatively high hurdle to jump in order to get your crackpot theories out before the general public, yet shy away from using print publications or pay-wall protected online journals (which actually go through a real-deal vetting and usually peer-reviewal process) due to concerns about the average reader not being able to access them. They seem to make the assumption that the average reader is carefully scrutinizing all the sources and has the ability to make their own informed decisions about the content - basically they can't tell the difference between the average consumer of the wikipedia "product" and an invested, spergy curator of a specific article or niche. I love it conceptually but goddamn does it have problems in execution.
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Dec 13, 2013 21:28
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Cyrano4747 posted:Usually they get the broad strokes right just because of the legions of mil hist spergs tending them, but check out the citations. Original research, does not meet WP-NOTE, citation needed flagged for deletion also Koesj I just went and read some of your linked posts. This makes me feel bad when I mock people about the A-10, since "isn't going to be doing gun runs on a string of Soviet tanks swarming out of the Fulda Gap" makes up a significant component of my mockery. Now I gotta come up with a new pithy phrase. At least whenever I come up with it I can rest assured it won't be as US-centric and myopic compared to the entirety of the forces arrayed in Europe during the Cold War  Psion fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Dec 13, 2013 |
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Dec 13, 2013 23:11
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Mortabis posted:Wikipedia also has a hilarious/depressing tendency to generate tons of confirmation bias. I've found the math articles to be reasonably accurate though, maybe because the only people who have opinions on eigenvectors and equivalence relations or whatever actually know what they are. Maybe that's where I've gone wrong - I've used the maths/crypto and data communications pages there a lot for quick reference into an algorithm or a protocol specification since they're usually well made. I'll be more critical of other stuff for sure. Thanks for the heads-up.
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Dec 14, 2013 02:03
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iyaayas01 posted:On a tangential note, check out the ads and the section in that issue about "THE FUUUTTTTTUUUUURRRREEEEE." Jet cars and plastic houses and foam furniture and nuclear everything...other than the racism and misogyny the '50s loving owned. Checking wikipedia, the guy only served four years. He was exchanged for Gary Powers and spent the rest of his life as the public face of the KGB, even though he apparently became increasingly disillusioned with communism.
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Dec 14, 2013 03:51
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Wiki averages out to fairly functional, but any given moment John Q. Chucklefuck may just edit it to be horribly, completely wrong. Sometimes it's at least funny. I was doing some rough starting work for a psych paper and looking over some early 20th century psychologists. One of them was listed as one of the founders of gangster rap.
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Dec 14, 2013 10:34
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Alaan posted:Wiki averages out to fairly functional, but any given moment John Q. Chucklefuck may just edit it to be horribly, completely wrong. The subtle edits are the best. Also; I had a dream about B-36s last night. Thanks, Cold War thread!
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Dec 14, 2013 21:57
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http://theaviationist.com/2013/12/16/tu-22-cruise-missiles/ New pictures of a Backfire sporting some fresh ordnance. 
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Dec 16, 2013 23:51
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Isn't the kh-22 old as balls?
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Dec 17, 2013 00:00
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evil_bunnY posted:Isn't the kh-22 old as balls? The original KH-22 entered service in 1971? I think? The linked article says they're "probably" the upgraded KH-32 model. I have no idea how to distinguish them visually. When did the KH-32 enter service?
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Dec 17, 2013 00:19
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Psion posted:The original KH-22 entered service in 1971? I think? The linked article says they're "probably" the upgraded KH-32 model. I have no idea how to distinguish them visually. When did the KH-32 enter service? I want to say it was a mid/late 90s upgrade. New engine (same approximate speed but supposedly a bit more range) and a new guidance package/radar.
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Dec 17, 2013 00:26
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Lightning Fast Dildo Delivery!
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Dec 17, 2013 02:35
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priznat posted:Lightning Fast Dildo Delivery! Careful what you wish for, Canada's the closest target.
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Dec 17, 2013 04:53
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madeintaipei posted:Careful what you wish for, Canada's the closest target. It's cool we just claimed ownership of the North Pole along with Santa so the Soviets (they still are, they're just pretending they de-commied) know not to mess with us. UNLEASH THE KRAMPUS
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Dec 17, 2013 05:56
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It's fun because an acquaintance of mine joking refers to himself as a Soviet citizen because he was born in the Soviet Union and has never actually lived in the Russian Federation.
Alaan fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 05:59
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I just enjoy how they go by "CIS" in certain sporting events like world jr hockey so "Die CIS scum!!" is double effective.
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Dec 17, 2013 06:02
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Alaan posted:It's fun because an acquaintance of mine joking refers to himself as a Soviet citizen because he was bore in the Soviet Union and has never actually lived in the Russian Federation. There are people in Latvia and Estonia who are this for real.
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Dec 17, 2013 06:03
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priznat posted:I just enjoy how they go by "CIS" in certain sporting events like world jr hockey so "Die CIS scum!!" is double effective. 
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Dec 17, 2013 09:08
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priznat posted:It's cool we just claimed ownership of the North Pole along with Santa Santa may have something to say about that; 
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Dec 17, 2013 09:44
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priznat posted:Lightning Fast Dildo Delivery! Outside Dawg posted:Santa may have something to say about that; 
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Dec 17, 2013 09:54
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