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I think the problem with the Crimson and Cherno doesn't need any in depth hypothesizing (nerdothesizing?) about what they should have done to win. Del Toro did the same thing with Blade II; introduce cool characters, kill them easily to show how powerful the bad guys are. The director commentary gives this away. He says he wanted both Jaegers to be beaten easily and brutally, and uses "brutally" several times. By this point in the movie, everyone is impressed and interested in these other jaegers we haven't seen in action yet, especially as they've been talked up so well, and gets disappointed proportionally to how invested they were when Del Toro makes his characteristic mistake again. I think he genuinely doesn't realize what sort of damage he does to his films by doing this every time. It's entirely possible to have powerful characters act impressively and still fail against something without defusing our expectations, but he takes the wrong approach by making these fights so one sided it infantilizes our hero/es while simultaneously cheapening the villain. It seems like a genuine failure of directing and writing. I personally hated it because Cherno was such a fantastic design. The most Russian thing that ever walked the Earth without a single mention of Vodka, bears, or communism anywhere. He's a tank, the strongest and toughest jaeger ever made with the record to match! Except for the one time we see him fight his three punches barely make his target flinch, he doesn't use his weapons, then he flails around like a baby before collapsing in a heap. If I didn't know better I would have thought it was a Michael Bay-esque insult to the audience.
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Nov 17, 2013 00:31
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I don't know why people are so worked up over Cherno and Crimson's defeat. It's hardly the standard 'Worf effect' material that most films give you. A genuine failure of directing and writing?  The destruction of Cherno and the drowning of the Kaidonovsky's always seems to be mentioned as one of the best scenes in the film and the writing that leads to their death is solid. Old Jaeger going up against the two modern Kaiju who sneak attack it and utilise weapons and tactics that exploit its weaknesses.'Damage he does to his films'. 
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Nov 17, 2013 00:57
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Habibi posted:Well, what he said he read was that she was supposed to be a progressive female character "in the realm of action films," which is a fairly low bar compared to a progressive female character, just. I don't think this has been true since...1979? 1986, definitely, possibly earlier. Ripley was a good character and her movies performed well. I suppose you can argue Aliens is an exception, but it's a very prominent exception. e: the weirdest thing about this movie's writing is that Mako has 100% of the setup for an archetypical Hero's Journey arc. She wants to prove how much she knows and how good she is, but nobody will let her General Battuta fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 17, 2013 |
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Nov 17, 2013 01:05
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Milky Moor posted:I don't know why people are so worked up over Cherno and Crimson's defeat. It's hardly the standard 'Worf effect' material that most films give you. A genuine failure of directing and writing? Damage as in, this part of the film feels like it could have been done better, and the mistake that lead to it has been done before. This might be a personal thing but I think while the reasoning is unquestionably there, and there was no confusion as to why they were beaten, Del Toro goes a little too far in showing just how easily his characters are overpowered. The battle of Hong Kong is disappointing because Cherno and Crimson are treated like cardboard cutouts to be knocked over, and it shows considering how much thought was obviously put into creating them. The fight doesn't need to be close, but at least have our star players show some reason for them to have been stars in the first place. It's fine that Cherno is screwed over by the acid and crumpled afterwards, but because his punches have such little effect on Otachi it doesn't seem like the acid is necessary. It's cool and brutal that Otachi pops off Crimsons' head like a cork, but all Crimson manages to do is give him a couple of cosmetic scratches before having his saw hands caught and crushed because apparently they can't even chop through a set of kaiju fingers. We get that these are tailored responses but the way the fight is written undermines that. EDIT: I'm not saying he's ruining his movies or anything. It's more like a consistent noticeable minor mistake, like a musician who keeps playing his high C's at the top of a crescendo sharp or something. Dr. Red Ranger fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Nov 17, 2013 |
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Nov 17, 2013 01:20
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General Battuta posted:I don't think this has been true since...1979? 1986, definitely, possibly earlier. Ripley was a good character and her movies performed well. I suppose you can argue Aliens is an exception, but it's a very prominent exception. Which is the most frustrating thing of the movie. I mean second person perspective can be used to a good extent. But having scenes of Whitebread working on the wall, and him 'saving the day' by rescuing Mako and activating the reactor it ruins the oppertunity of second-person based narrative. What would have been better is if Whitebread McHeropants actually failed in activating the reactor, with Mako's escape pod malfunctioning by not launching, and Mako finally rescuing him and both of them leaving in the last working escape pod. Then it would have helped the theme of unity allowing mankind to overcome obstacles; but instead it feels like executives demanded Whitebread to be the 'real' hero at best, and GDT making a critically bad decision.
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Nov 17, 2013 01:25
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Gipsy Danger itself was the protagonist of the film if you want to go with a classic Hero's Journey arc.
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Nov 17, 2013 01:47
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I think the problem with the Crimson and Cherno doesn't need any in depth hypothesizing (nerdothesizing?) about what they should have done to win. Del Toro did the same thing with Blade II; introduce cool characters, kill them easily to show how powerful the bad guys are. I was afraid he'd do this, just like Blade II, and he did. Show us they're badass, Mr. Del Toro, don't tell us.
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Nov 17, 2013 04:24
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Wizchine posted:I was afraid he'd do this, just like Blade II, and he did. Show us they're badass, Mr. Del Toro, don't tell us. I still think the problem is all the hype about them before it came out. They have like 5-10 minutes between them and there entire point is to get smashed by Kaiju. I don't think the film itself even hypes them up. They only really get introduced and they have no character whatsoever. hemale in pain fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Nov 17, 2013 |
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Nov 17, 2013 04:43
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General Battuta posted:I don't think this has been true since...1979? 1986, definitely, possibly earlier. Ripley was a good character and her movies performed well. I suppose you can argue Aliens is an exception, but it's a very prominent exception. Yeah, Ripley is one good counter-example. Unfortunately one exception doesn't do much to raise the bar. Action movies, generally speaking, just don't tend to be great venues for exhibiting truly progressive female characters. Habibi fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Nov 17, 2013 |
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Nov 17, 2013 06:03
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NoneSuch posted:I still think the problem is all the hype about them before it came out. They have like 5-10 minutes between them and there entire point is to get smashed by Kaiju. The film explicitly (Cherno) and implicitly (Crimson) hypes up the pilots more than the Jaegars, and as a result I found it somewhat fitting that Cherno and Crimson's defeat were a testament to their Jaegar's vulnerabiliies, and didn't really reflect on their pilots (whose fighting machines were very specifically and deliberately outmatched). As an example, this is the exact opposite scenario of Gipsy's original defeat, where if it wasn't for the pilots she should have probably mopped the floor with Knifehead. precision posted:Gipsy Danger itself was the protagonist of the film if you want to go with a classic Hero's Journey arc.
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Nov 17, 2013 06:10
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General Battuta posted:I don't think this has been true since...1979? 1986, definitely, possibly earlier. Ripley was a good character and her movies performed well. I suppose you can argue Aliens is an exception, but it's a very prominent exception. Yes, because the existence of one counterexample proves that sexism is no longer an issue in action movies. I can count on my hands all of the action movies that have come out during my lifetime that had female leads, and most of them bombed.
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Nov 17, 2013 07:52
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:Damage as in, this part of the film feels like it could have been done better, and the mistake that lead to it has been done before. This might be a personal thing but I think while the reasoning is unquestionably there, and there was no confusion as to why they were beaten, Del Toro goes a little too far in showing just how easily his characters are overpowered. The battle of Hong Kong is disappointing because Cherno and Crimson are treated like cardboard cutouts to be knocked over, and it shows considering how much thought was obviously put into creating them. The fight doesn't need to be close, but at least have our star players show some reason for them to have been stars in the first place. They were defeated easily since the kaiju knew their exact weaknesses and exploited them very well. It had nothing whatsoever with poor writing or directing. I also didn't feel like they were hyped up at all. If anything, the pilots looked overconfident whenever they were on camera, which gave even more meaning to how ineffective they were in battle.
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Nov 17, 2013 10:09
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To me, the only part of the movie that didn't make much sense was why Leatherback didn't roflstomp Striker while it was incapacitated. Instead it circled around it. There was a good two minute period before the pilots got out and shot their flare guns. Why not rip it to pieces during that time?
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Nov 17, 2013 10:13
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enraged_camel posted:To me, the only part of the movie that didn't make much sense was why Leatherback didn't roflstomp Striker while it was incapacitated. Instead it circled around it. There was a good two minute period before the pilots got out and shot their flare guns. Why not rip it to pieces during that time? I mean, if I had just used a never-before-used weapon on a guy that incapacitates him I would check to make sure he's not bullshitting me before I go in for the kill.
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Nov 17, 2013 14:33
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DStecks posted:Yes, because the existence of one counterexample proves that sexism is no longer an issue in action movies. This is the opposite of the point I'm trying to make (namely, that Mako should've been the protagonist of Pacific Rim, and that it's really disappointing she wasn't.) What I'm saying is that we've had mega-successful action movies with women in the lead, and that 'the market likes it better' is not a good reason to make Raleigh the protagonist. (the protagonist's name was raleigh right)
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Nov 17, 2013 16:01
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I'm not sure which films to compare it to, but in Pacific Rim the protagonist is basically the least important character in the film. And that works, because the film is more about exploring the amazing alternate reality than some character piece. The closest film I can think of is The Hobbit, but it'd be more like if The Hobbit had Bilbo not experience character growth at all and just be along to provide a reason for exposition. (Actually, I guess Hellboy is the best comparison, also by Del Toro!)
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Nov 17, 2013 16:11
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computer parts posted:I mean, if I had just used a never-before-used weapon on a guy that incapacitates him I would check to make sure he's not bullshitting me before I go in for the kill. That doesn't make any sense though. The kaiju had seen in Newt's mind that the EMP would incapacitate all digital jaegers.
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Nov 17, 2013 19:10
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computer parts posted:I mean, if I had just used a never-before-used weapon on a guy that incapacitates him I would check to make sure he's not bullshitting me before I go in for the kill. You're also not a dumb animal.  Remember that the kaiju themselves are never depicted as intelligent, just their masters.
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Nov 17, 2013 19:25
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enraged_camel posted:To me, the only part of the movie that didn't make much sense was why Leatherback didn't roflstomp Striker while it was incapacitated. Instead it circled around it. There was a good two minute period before the pilots got out and shot their flare guns. Why not rip it to pieces during that time? Well, it makes a bit more sense to me when you consider that it also didn't tear Crimson Typhoon apart after disabling its capabilities (via ripping off the head and pilots). In both cases, the thing that makes the robot 'work' was somehow disabled, leaving a more or less (respectively) intact Jaegar that was no longer capable of presenting a threat. And, hell, for all we know, perhaps they weren't sure whether the EMP would disable it temporarily or permanently, or practically permanent if it was enough time to assault the Shatterdome.
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Nov 17, 2013 19:43
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Finally saw this colossal pile of poo poo. Wish I'd just stared in my toilet for 2 hours instead. At least that way I could marvel at my own achievements.
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Nov 17, 2013 21:17
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enraged_camel posted:They were defeated easily since the kaiju knew their exact weaknesses and exploited them very well. It had nothing whatsoever with poor writing or directing. I call it a failure of writing (not in a massive catastrophic sense, but minor mistake sense) because Stacker does actually hype them up. Their capabilities, how long they've served, words like "tank", "brutal", "lethal" get thrown around, and Cherno even gets the "don't be fooled by it's looks" setup. The film implicitly builds them by by context too; it's the end of the war, the glory days of cocky celebrity pilots are long over. Every other jaeger and pilot team has been destroyed, leaving this hardened core of competent, badass motherfuckers who obviously must know what they're doing and have learned to be at least cautious about evolving kaiju because they're still around. This half of the issue obviously worked for the film because of just how well these characters are regarded by the audience considering they get maybe 10 minutes of a 2 hour movie devoted to them, and most of that is a losing battle. I just think that the details of the fight itself give me the impression that the weaknesses that were exploited were barely necessary at all. Crimson having his handsaws crushed by Otachi's fingers (saws+fingers usually mean lost fingers) have nothing to do with the weak, exposed head and make the "lethal" saws look like flimsy toys. A slight, maybe 2 second modification to the monster choreography where otachi tries to avoid the saws after getting cut up would give the impression that it actually has to press it's inbuilt advantages. I'm just saying that for me, the film undermines itself here by making the intelligence advantage the kaiju gain a total, embarrassing failure for the jaegers rather than "surprising trump cards that allow our heroes to be crumpled dramatically". The shock effect of having the star jaegers so brutally crushed was a good choice for the script, but it's lessened because (at least a significant portion of) the audience was jilted by crappy performance on the jaeger end. For example, in Star Wars, the Death Star has a ridiculous, silly weakness that's basically written for the protagonist to look good exploiting, but we still see it as a threat because we are shown how dangerous the Death Star itself is and how hard the battle to exploit the weakness was. Personally, I like the "Death Star weakness" approach because it preserves the sense of threat established for the subject, but this apparently isn't for everyone.
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Nov 17, 2013 21:40
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Waltzing Along posted:Finally saw this colossal pile of poo poo. Wish I'd just stared in my toilet for 2 hours instead. At least that way I could marvel at my own achievements. Truly an insightful piece of cinematic criticism.
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Nov 17, 2013 21:56
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Waltzing Along posted:Finally saw this colossal pile of poo poo. Wish I'd just stared in my toilet for 2 hours instead. At least that way I could marvel at my own achievements. Finally saw this colossal pile of poo poo. Wish I'd just stared in my toilet for 20 seconds instead. At least that way I wouldn't even need to ask why you didn't like the movie.
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Nov 17, 2013 23:00
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I call it a failure of writing (not in a massive catastrophic sense, but minor mistake sense) because Stacker does actually hype them up. Their capabilities, how long they've served, words like "tank", "brutal", "lethal" get thrown around, and Cherno even gets the "don't be fooled by it's looks" setup. quote:The film implicitly builds them by by context too; it's the end of the war, the glory days of cocky celebrity pilots are long over. Every other jaeger and pilot team has been destroyed, leaving this hardened core of competent, badass motherfuckers who obviously must know what they're doing and have learned to be at least cautious about evolving kaiju because they're still around. This half of the issue obviously worked for the film because of just how well these characters are regarded by the audience considering they get maybe 10 minutes of a 2 hour movie devoted to them, and most of that is a losing battle. I just think that the details of the fight itself give me the impression that the weaknesses that were exploited were barely necessary at all. Crimson having his handsaws crushed by Otachi's fingers (saws+fingers usually mean lost fingers) have nothing to do with the weak, exposed head and make the "lethal" saws look like flimsy toys. A slight, maybe 2 second modification to the monster choreography where otachi tries to avoid the saws after getting cut up would give the impression that it actually has to press it's inbuilt advantages. quote:I'm just saying that for me, the film undermines itself here by making the intelligence advantage the kaiju gain a total, embarrassing failure for the jaegers rather than "surprising trump cards that allow our heroes to be crumpled dramatically". The shock effect of having the star jaegers so brutally crushed was a good choice for the script, but it's lessened because (at least a significant portion of) the audience was jilted by crappy performance on the jaeger end. A Jaegar is only as good as the pilots. This is emphasized throughout the movie. The hype surrounding the remaining Jaegars is, in the case of all but Eureka, hype surrounding not the vehicles but the pilots. Circling back to your opening criticism regarding the hype of Cherno, note that anything regarding actual accomplishments is entirely pilot-centric. Pentacost doesn't laud Cherno for holding the Siberian wall for 6 years - he lauds the crew. He doesn't laud Crimson for defending the coast however many times, he lauds the triplets. And yet in the fight between the 3 Jagears, Otachi, and Leatherback, what transpires doesn't reflect on the pilots, but - as bolded from your quote above - the Jaegars themselves. Cherno is broken by a weapon designed to crack its nearly impenetrable armor (and down to the atypically well-protected cockpit) and which it alone is too slow to dodge. Crimson is broken by a weapon that attacks from outside its range and takes advantage of its comparatively light armor and uniquely vulnerable head/pilots. Eureka is just straight up turned off. In retrospect, I think the practically routine defeat serves to underscore that the specific adaptations Otachi and LB have for Crimson, Cherno, and Eureka rendered the pilots almost irrelevant by disproportionately tilting the playing field. So, in other words, the truly 'hyped' actors - the pilots themselves - weren't defeated because it turned out they just weren't that good. So for me, it wasn't a case of the hyped Jaegars being taken down shockingly fast despite being soooo good. It was a case of hyped pilots who were made mostly irrelevant because of specific design advantages. Habibi fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Nov 17, 2013 |
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Nov 17, 2013 23:50
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Habibi posted:All of that hype was relative to the fact that it was one of the first Jaegars built. He's basically saying, "Don't be fooled by the model year, this thing can still haul rear end, even if it corners a little loose." See, I can understand the wrestling hold part, but when I watched the scene I noticed Crimson's right hand stopping, then exploding with a small fireball in Otachi's grip. That made me think that the saws experienced a mechanical failure because they weren't able to cut through the fingers holding them. When he falls headless you can see the claw that wasn't caught still spinning but I didn't see the other two. That he pops off the head is fine but I got a different impression due to the explosion, and because those big gashes Crimson causes don't slow down Otachi at all against Gypsy. As for whether the fault is with the pilots or the jaegers, that's a fine interpretation, but it doesn't really pop out to me because the film seems to want to present the jaegers and their pilots as a unit or a whole. When Gypsy first fails it's because the brain (pilots) don't take the enemy seriously and misuse the body, but it's still one character who just happens to have 2 extra personalities involved in it's/his/they're return to glory. Gypsy also has several scenes of not so subtle symbolism where it represents the union of Raleigh and Mako, how they compliment each other, and how this allows "Gypsy Danger", the character, to be whole. I went into the Battle of Hong Kong scene with the impression that the jaegers and their pilots were representative of each other in a similar fashion, so the ensuing defeat seemed less like a failure of one end of that relationship but that the character itself failed, like Superman getting clowned by a thug with a kryptonite nailbat or something. It's practically counter intuitive to separate the machine from the fighters. Ultimately though I think it would have been better for the two respective superstars to show why they were threats a bit more before being downed. It still would have been impressive and a gut punch to the audience because Crimson is dead and Cherno hopelessly crippled before Leatherback even shows up, but you can still show that Otachi now has a limp, or slack side of his face because Cherno punched him into a stroke, so that we know the our heroes' signature moves have an impact. Even better, this could have added more tension to the "hide and seek" portion of the city fight because now Otachi is wounded and cornered and will fight all the more ferociously for it (and still has his tail and acid). EDIT: In a shallow sense, yeah, this movie is about letting the audience enjoy the robots like the toys they are within a plot framework, so cutting it short like that denies that part of the audience some of that enjoyment they expected/wanted. I think it hurt the film slightly more than it helped it by denying that as harshly as it did. Dr. Red Ranger fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 00:30
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While all of that is available information to the viewer, I felt like it wasn't clear enough unless you thought about it. During the fight, its hard not to feel like Cherno and Crimson get chumped, because they do. But its because the Kaiju coming after them are specifically designed to kill them. There should have been a little bit of dialogue about that, I think, and maybe Raleigh saying that they did better against Leatherback and Otachi because they got to see what surprises they had in store. Showing that Leatherback and/or Otachi got injured in the fight against the other two would have helped some too. At least they would have done something.
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Nov 18, 2013 00:35
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I don't even think we needed an explanation. It's pretty plain that Cherno was too slow to avoid the acid and that Crimson's head was extra vulnerable to the claw machine tail. Gypsy shows it's trademark "unpredictable" character by improvising solutions. Having lines about it would probably just be redundant. It's just that the fight is disappointing because it's so one sided that many people feel let down.
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Nov 18, 2013 00:40
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I agree with Habibi's analysis. And it's not like Crimson fights badly. It actually manages to throw Otachi over its shoulder after the latter catches it's blades. It's one of those "oh no... holy poo poo yes!" moments. So the pilots are clearly very skilled. The problem is they don't know Otachi was designed specifically to counter Crimson. Therefore they are taken completely off guard and are ripped off the jaeger. It's like you're in a fist fight and the other guy suddenly produces a knife and stabs you in the throat. There isn't much you can do unless you know for a fact that he is carrying a knife and is willing to use it. The fact that you may be the best boxer in the world would not change the outcome much. Same thing with Cherno. When it engages Otachi it's clearly whooping the kaiju's rear end. Overhead smash, double punch followed by throwing over the shoulder. But then it is unexpectedly stunned by acid and Leatherback comes in and finishes it off. So to me, the way the fights play out show that if it weren't for the kaiju's specifically designed weapons, it would have been two of the best jaegers vs two regular cat 4 kaiju's and the jaegers would have won.
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Nov 18, 2013 00:46
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Honestly on a side note I thought all the throwing was kind of dumb. Yes them landing in water is going to hurt real bad. Needed more back breaker type moves, etc.
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Nov 18, 2013 00:54
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enraged_camel posted:I agree with Habibi's analysis. The problem with this (at least to me) is that yes, they clearly do have moments where they're holding their own against Otachi, but it doesn't matter in the end. Otachi leaves the initial battle without any visible damage - heck, even Striker Eureka's beatdown doesn't do any lasting damage, so what's the point of it all? If two people with flareguns can do more damage than two Jaegers, that doesn't reflect well on their performance, regardless of Kaiju design choices.
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Nov 18, 2013 01:02
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:Del Toro did the same thing with Blade II; introduce cool characters, kill them easily to show how powerful the bad guys are. The director commentary gives this away. It is now fanon that Snowman was one of the Tacit Ronin pilots.
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Nov 18, 2013 01:15
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There are also small details that show up only for a second or so that undermine the jaegers personalities for me. Each by itself isn't big, but it adds up. For example, Cherno is supposed to be heavily armored and stalwart; planting his feet and brawling his foes to death. However when the battle turns we see Otachi chomp through and explode his arm in one move. Later, there's a short shot where a wounded Cherno is standing face to face with leatherback and just takes hits while flailing his arms. It doesn't really jive with how we intuit that Cherno works. I'm beginning to think the whole argument could have been avoided if Cherno had thrown poorly aimed desperate punches out of sheer hate and bitter Siberian fighting spirit on the way down.
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Nov 18, 2013 01:20
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:See, I can understand the wrestling hold part, but when I watched the scene I noticed Crimson's right hand stopping, then exploding with a small fireball in Otachi's grip. That made me think that the saws experienced a mechanical failure because they weren't able to cut through the fingers holding them. When he falls headless you can see the claw that wasn't caught still spinning but I didn't see the other two. That he pops off the head is fine but I got a different impression due to the explosion, and because those big gashes Crimson causes don't slow down Otachi at all against Gypsy. Nah it doesn't explode - it looks like sparky/flamy effects from the mechanism grinding to a halt and then being slightly scrunched, but in the subsequent scenes all three saws are still spinning. They just couldn't outreach his tail. e: and regarding hurting the Kaiju, it's not a reach to assume that their Jaegar-specific adaptations weren't just offensive, but defensive, as well. Both Kaiju took a LOT of physical punishment before they stuttered - surely they would have come ready to take a potential beating from Chernota (thicker bones? vital organs better protected from physical forces?) or a few slices from Crimson (thicker skin?) while waiting for an opening or for Eureka to join the fight. I dunno, as long as we're sperging, that makes sense. Habibi fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 04:18
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Dammerung posted:The problem with this (at least to me) is that yes, they clearly do have moments where they're holding their own against Otachi, but it doesn't matter in the end. Otachi leaves the initial battle without any visible damage - heck, even Striker Eureka's beatdown doesn't do any lasting damage, so what's the point of it all? If two people with flareguns can do more damage than two Jaegers, that doesn't reflect well on their performance, regardless of Kaiju design choices. Eh. Pretty sure you can see some cuts from Crimson's assault, and otherwise any damage it suffered is likely to be internal/bruising and wouldn't exactly stand out to us in the flurry of a fight (at night, in a big city). So two dudes with flareguns managed to hit it in the eye and pop some vessels, causing visible damage. For all we know, Eureka and Cherno cracked some ribs or damaged some internal organs, but that wouldn't necessarily visibly slow down (our even be externally visible on) a frenzied bear, let alone a giant space dinosaur.
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Nov 18, 2013 04:25
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Habibi posted:Nah it doesn't explode - it looks like sparky/flamy effects from the mechanism grinding to a halt and then being slightly scrunched, but in the subsequent scenes all three saws are still spinning. They just couldn't outreach his tail. I'll have to watch it again then, I definitely thought it was an explosive effect. As for how much damage we can assume the kaiju sustained and didn't show it because they were tough, it seems like the sort of thing I wouldn't feel safe as a director letting the audience assume if I didn't at least add a cue or two. Like with Cherno, you could say that the acid dripping through his frame damaged all the necessary parts for coordinating punches, or weakened it in some way but that wouldn't be immediately clear compared to a panicked pilot or something without a visual or verbal clue like a joint popping out. I think a broken jaw or a maimed eye would have effectively communicated that the heroes weren't helpless while making the kaiju even scarier when they overpower them, in a similar fashion to horror movies where the monster/killer is repeatedly stabbed and disfigured but carries on disemboweling teenagers like it didn't care.
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Nov 18, 2013 04:49
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I'll have to watch it again then, I definitely thought it was an explosive effect. As for how much damage we can assume the kaiju sustained and didn't show it because they were tough, it seems like the sort of thing I wouldn't feel safe as a director letting the audience assume if I didn't at least add a cue or two. Like with Cherno, you could say that the acid dripping through his frame damaged all the necessary parts for coordinating punches, or weakened it in some way but that wouldn't be immediately clear compared to a panicked pilot or something without a visual or verbal clue like a joint popping out. I think a broken jaw or a maimed eye would have effectively communicated that the heroes weren't helpless while making the kaiju even scarier when they overpower them, in a similar fashion to horror movies where the monster/killer is repeatedly stabbed and disfigured but carries on disemboweling teenagers like it didn't care. But they practically were helpless? That was my point earlier regarding the battle not reflecting on the pilots. They were going up against an opponent with what could be viewed as a targeted evolutionary advantage. They were tank operators suddenly pitted against helicopters. I'm not sure why you as a director wouldn't feel safe taking a few liberties with an adapted giant interdimensional lizard and how it handles damage. We've seen a Cat 3 shrug off a point blank plasma cannon, but Cat 4 Kaiju who are designed to battle specific Jaegars being able to withstand their (truncated) assaults without much obvious damage is something the director should be wary off? I guess that just doesn't make much sense to me. If you can assume that the Kaiju had an offense to overwhelm those Jaegars, why not defensive adaptations to compensate for attacks it KNOWS are going to come its way?
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Nov 18, 2013 05:01
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I don't even think we needed an explanation. It's pretty plain that Cherno was too slow to avoid the acid and that Crimson's head was extra vulnerable to the claw machine tail. Gypsy shows it's trademark "unpredictable" character by improvising solutions. Having lines about it would probably just be redundant. It's just that the fight is disappointing because it's so one sided that many people feel let down. I guess what we are saying is that feeling let down was the point. You nailed it with the part about improvisation. Despite being knocked over by Otachi's long tail, the Crimson pilots default to their predictable thundercloud formation and are defeated. There is no thought process of "hmm, that tail that just knocked us down is longer than our reach, we should try something else" because they weren't trained for that mindset. Similarly, Cherno is quite predictable in the way it tries to take advantage of its tanky build by charging Otachi, which then easily hits it with acid. Whereas Gypsy clearly improvises. When it engages Otachi it's carrying a long rear end ship as a stick to be able to counter Otachi's range, and it works great. Similarly it clenches cargo containers and smacks Leatherback with them to daze it. Basically, the idea is that without any weapons designed specifically for Gypsy, the two kaiju are either equal or greater in strength, but Gypsy wins both fights by being creative and unpredictable.
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Nov 18, 2013 05:14
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OldPueblo posted:Honestly on a side note I thought all the throwing was kind of dumb. Yes them landing in water is going to hurt real bad. Needed more back breaker type moves, etc. Throw moves when you've got your opponent on the ropes is a staple in movies. They're dumb and only serve to extend the fight for entertainment.
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Nov 18, 2013 05:17
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I saw a "sweded" scene from the battle of Hong Kong, and it's hilarious because it's like 2 seconds of a guy in an Otachi costume crashing through a cardboard building to ambush a guy in a Gypsy Danger costume. Is there any more footage? The whole battle would be hysterical as a sweded version- some kid in a gorilla costume perched on top of Rubbermaid garbage can Cherno Alpha wailing on him while Cherno impotently windmilling his arms.
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Nov 18, 2013 06:09
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Panfilo posted:I saw a "sweded" scene from the battle of Hong Kong, and it's hilarious because it's like 2 seconds of a guy in an Otachi costume crashing through a cardboard building to ambush a guy in a Gypsy Danger costume. Uh, yeah, I don't know. However, what I can tell you is that if I had seen this movie a few weeks earlier than I did, I would have figured out a Jaeger Halloween costume of some kind, incorporating my two month old daughter in a pilot costume in a front-facing carrier.
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Nov 18, 2013 06:21
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