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I think that's a pretty rough way to approach it. If there are situations in your game in which you have the free choice as to whether to engage in slavery or not, but doing so will be better for you as far as winning the game, then you are effectively condoning slavery through your game design. And if it's not ever the optimal choice, why is it in the game to begin with?
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Jun 18, 2020 04:04
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CommonShore posted:The only way I can see something like slavery working, in good conscience, in a game is if it were introduced with trade offs which represent the different dimensions of it as an institution and different people's reactions to it I think you could make a game that adequately explores how workers are treated by capitalism without making them actual slaves. Your hypothetical game doesn't actually address the ethical implications of slavery; it puts "ethical implications of slavery" on a game mechanic that could be something else, a tradeoff of some kind that creates a strategic option. It implies that there is some kind of cost to slavery, but the cost only occurs if there are enough people around to find it abhorrent, which, well, we had an actual war because that wasn't necessarily the case. I could see a game that dealt with the compounding moral debt and generational trauma that white supremacy has caused in the U.S., but the satisfaction would come from how well it illustrated the awfulness, rather than its being a traditional "fun" game.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:15
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Good points both.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:38
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Make a game about the origins of Venice: price everything, including landmarks, in slaves. Put slave groups of different creeds and nationalities on 110 cards, with backstories. Ideally, make people want the city to sink.CaptainRightful posted:Yeah, this gets to the heart of it. I personally prefer a game that accurately and honestly represents the historical reality of colonialism to a revenge fantasy. But I understand the appeal of the latter. 
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Jun 18, 2020 07:02
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homullus posted:I get that many people aren't familiar with how awful Columbus was. I don't get people learning how awful he was and still defending his place in the American pantheon. Lacerda isn't American, he's Portuguese. As I understand it Columbus is something of a national hero by adoption there; some people even believe he was Portugese by descent.  As far as his games go, I'm not going to sell them just because he has bad opinions. Those opinions aren't written into the games in any form, and he's already had my money.
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Jun 18, 2020 08:30
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Thank God my grandparents would nicknamed me Bartolomeo de las Casas for some reason, which piqued my curiosity caused me to look him up at school in the encyclopedia and oh boy do I think that new knowledge prevented me from becoming a chud. To keep it boardgames related ive brought out spirit island to some right leaning family and I don't think the overt theming has made it through to them. Quixotic1 fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 08:43
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I think there is value in presenting the fever dream and then saying 'okay having internalised that...do you think that was real or were these dudes insane?' I don't think people feel that after a game of TS though. It may be hilarious if you've been kicking Kissinger's theories to death but you have to be bringing that to the table, because it's not really there in the game itself.
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Jun 18, 2020 08:59
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Jedit posted:Lacerda isn't American, he's Portuguese. As I understand it Columbus is something of a national hero by adoption there; some people even believe he was Portugese by descent. Yeah you're going to have a tough time convincing folk in Seville that Columbus wasn't pretty great.
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Jun 18, 2020 09:22
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Mayveena posted:OK so over the weekend Vital Lacerda tweeted about his dismay about having the Christopher Columbus statue overturned. I had a conversation with him about this which I will keep private but the result was that I blocked him from my Facebook timeline where he'd been for a few years now.
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Jun 18, 2020 09:28
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Aramoro posted:Yeah you're going to have a tough time convincing folk in Seville that Columbus wasn't pretty great. And you're gonna have a tough time persuading people in London that Churchill was a racist twunt. Unpopular things are often nonetheless correct, and difficult things are often nonetheless the right things to do.
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Jun 18, 2020 09:43
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thespaceinvader posted:And you're gonna have a tough time persuading people in London that Churchill was a racist twunt. Oh absolutely but you have to accept the rate of change of opinion is going to be different in different places.
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Jun 18, 2020 10:04
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SelenicMartian posted:Is there a game like 18xx but about the US air mail fuckery of the early XX century? I believe there's one in development, or at least on the "18xxs in development" list on BGG. 1926
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Jun 18, 2020 10:12
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So Ricky Royal has done a video solo play through of Pax Emancipation sort of in response to the BLM protests. I know Eklund games can be controversial but from watching the videos I don’t see that this is offensive. https://youtu.be/EobSXE9s9JM The material is very interesting and as always it’s a great look at the game. Not sure I’m about to rush out and buy it though.
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Jun 18, 2020 10:16
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So I FINALLY have my copy of Whitehall Mystery and it arrived like this. Anybody know of a way to safely remove that top layer, or am I SOL and need to return my copy for a replacement?
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Jun 18, 2020 10:23
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You should just be able to ask for one replacement component, right? Not like the whole game needs replacing.
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Jun 18, 2020 11:14
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Beffer posted:So Ricky Royal has done a video solo play through of Pax Emancipation sort of in response to the BLM protests. I know Eklund games can be controversial but from watching the videos I don’t see that this is offensive. A lot of the problem with pax emancipation is uh, Phil's copious notes in the rulebook where he considers socialism no different from chattel slavery and that colonialism was a fundamentally emancipatory force(which is why there are more 'slaves' to free in China than in the US). If your idea is that the big locuses of slavery were Qing China and Mughal India, i really don't think you get it. In fact, i would go so far as to say pax emancipation is Phil Eklund's least historically justifiable game. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 11:46
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Panzeh posted:A lot of the problem with <insert any Eklund game here> is uh, Phil's copious notes in the rulebook
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Jun 18, 2020 11:49
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Infinitum posted:So I FINALLY have my copy of Whitehall Mystery and it arrived like this. You'd probably be able to get a replacement punchboard, but in the US Fantasy Flight's new policy is that you have to contact the retailer and they request a replacement part from Fantasy Flight and then ship it to you (or you pick it up if it's a FLGS). It's a pain in the rear end for everyone involved courtesy of Asmodee corporate, but at least it usually works in the end  I can't find any information for Australia, but I'd start by contacting FFG support.
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Jun 18, 2020 12:31
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Boo urns, cheers all. Will contact the retailer first and see what they say.
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Jun 18, 2020 12:37
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Beffer posted:So Ricky Royal has done a video solo play through of Pax Emancipation sort of in response to the BLM protests. I know Eklund games can be controversial but from watching the videos I don’t see that this is offensive. Conceptually, the things that Phil is trying to actually make gameplay out of in Pax Em are fascinating. The way he uses thought leaders and ideas to 'open up' parts of the board and the mechanisms regarding capital etc... very clever indeed. Unfortunately, the model of history he creates to actually articulate those ideas is so enmeshed in his personal ideology that it is totally and completely reprehensible. All the other Pax games, through virtue of being 'sandboxy' in nature, end up showing the utter bastardry and carnage that occur when foreign interests meddle in domestic politics. Pax Em is so channelled into telling this narrative of 'The British liberate the entire world from slavery (and slavery is anything that isn't Western society)' that it just comes off as laughably ridiculous. And that's before you get into his execrable 'designer notes'. This is a great read: https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/85299/thoughts-pax-emancipations-footnotes-1-8 EDIT: Looks like Patrick Rael formalised his thoughts on it https://www.bowdoin.edu/~prael/Rael-Pax-Exasperation.pdf
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Jun 18, 2020 14:10
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Mayveena posted:OK so over the weekend Vital Lacerda tweeted about his dismay about having the Christopher Columbus statue overturned. I had a conversation with him about this which I will keep private but the result was that I blocked him from my Facebook timeline where he'd been for a few years now. Facebook as a company provides a shelter for white supremacist views, and even leadership there acknowledges their algorithms lead to creating people with extremist (read: racist) views. Every time anyone uses Facebook, Instagram, messenger, or WhatsApp, they either/both: a) provide direct revenue to the company to allow them to fund their operations or directly donate that money to the company’s favorite causes, one of which is literally Brett kavanaugh. or b) reinforce the company’s network effects making it stronger. there is no ethical amount of usage of facebook’s products greater than zero. EDIT: that's the choice everyone makes. there's plenty of ways to stay in touch with people. VVVVV Fate Accomplice fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 14:20
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On the other hand, isolating oneself from friends and/or family is probably a bad thing, and if they use it, so it goes. Trying to get a group of people to all change habits is not going to be a real solution.
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Jun 18, 2020 14:36
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Panzeh posted:A lot of the problem with pax emancipation is uh, Phil's copious notes in the rulebook where he considers socialism no different from chattel slavery and that colonialism was a fundamentally emancipatory force(which is why there are more 'slaves' to free in China than in the US). If your idea is that the big locuses of slavery were Qing China and Mughal India, i really don't think you get it. Phil, what percentage of Brits had the right to vote in 1917, when your game ends? About 30%, none of them women
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Jun 18, 2020 14:46
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My immediate gaming group has settled on A Feast for Odin as our next big game. After watching a ton of videos I'm probably going to go all in on Odin + Norwegians at the same time.  Will pick it up next month after a few other bills are sorted out, and happy to post a trip report. There's also currently a thread on BGG discussing the Dane + Sweden expansions. Addition of a 5th player is good for my gaming circles.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:14
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I would never want to play feast at 5, but that's because I kinda don't want to play anything at 5 that isn't fully designed for it (die macher, El grande, that sort of thing). I noted in the thread that I want pink as a player color though.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:19
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silvergoose posted:I noted in the thread that I want pink as a player color though. Purple. So I can be a Teenage Mutant Raiding Viking 
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Jun 18, 2020 15:27
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Feast is good at two or three players. The play time goes up by a lot at four, so five seems bad to me.
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Jun 18, 2020 15:42
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What is some good new hotness that's on TTS that's good at 5?
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Jun 18, 2020 16:08
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CitizenKeen posted:What is some good new hotness that's on TTS that's good at 5?
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Jun 18, 2020 16:16
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Max posted:Feast is good at two or three players. The play time goes up by a lot at four, so five seems bad to me. I think if everyone knows what they're doing it could work at higher counts but even someone like myself who has played a ton of the game can still find my own turns dragging because there's so much I want to do dammit. Curiously I play it so much at 2 that even using the other side of the boards would feel strange. Just hearing someone mention AFfO makes me want to play more. The footprint on the game is getting insane and soon I'll need to use it and Mega Civ as the measurement for the right size of a gaming table. silvergoose posted:I would never want to play feast at 5, but that's because I kinda don't want to play anything at 5 that isn't fully designed for it (die macher, El grande, that sort of thing). I grabbed Die Macher from the latest reprint of it and have wanted to get it on the table for a bit but know nothing about it beyond it's reputation. How complicated of a game are we talking here? What's the time commitment you think I can estimate for a learning game? You say 5 isn't a good number, what do you think works best? For reference, my gaming group(s) can vary from people who eat up stuff like Bios and 1830 to Scythe being on the higher end. Sorry to machine gun you with questions I'm just curious to your thoughts.
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Jun 18, 2020 16:17
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CitizenKeen posted:What is some good new hotness that's on TTS that's good at 5? Don't know if it's new but Nusfjord is 5 and good. Pax Pamir?
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Jun 18, 2020 16:33
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Pax Emancipation is the one Eklund game even Cole Wehrle can't stan for.
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Jun 18, 2020 17:06
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CaptainRightful posted:Don't know if you're arguing in good faith here, but SI is routinely held up as one of the few boardgames taking a strong moral stance against colonialism. I think one of the weirdest things about it is that the colonizers are named after real historical empires but the colonized are an invention. I'm arguing in good faith. My problem is that I'm not sure Spirit Island had or has any educational intentions, which you claimed the game fails at, but I don't think it was ever trying to be educational. SI is like Django Unchained if Jamie Foxx was Heart of the Wildfire and Leonardo DiCaprio was a plastic city.
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Jun 18, 2020 17:18
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FulsomFrank posted:I think if everyone knows what they're doing it could work at higher counts but even someone like myself who has played a ton of the game can still find my own turns dragging because there's so much I want to do dammit. Curiously I play it so much at 2 that even using the other side of the boards would feel strange. You misread! I meant die macher and el grande were designed for 5, so they're very good at that count. And most games that weren't, especially games that get a 5th player expansion, are awful at it. For the game itself, it's honestly not that complicated, but can definitely take a while (3 to 4 hours) for any sort of learning game.
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Jun 18, 2020 17:20
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The End posted:This is a great read: https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/85299/thoughts-pax-emancipations-footnotes-1-8 This was, in fact, a great read. Reading Phil's replies and a little bit of the back-and-forth, on the other hand... He comes across as someone who is so thoroughly entrenched in his own very particular worldview with its precise, idiosyncratic, and lacking definitions that he can't possibly conceive of anyone examining the same facts in good faith and arriving at different conclusions. He is extremely tenacious and prickly when this is even suggested as a possibility. https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/85518/origins-slavery-pax-emancipation posted:Patrick: “What kind of evidence would negate your claim [about this question of slavery’s origin] and cause you to re-examine it?” Of course I probably could have gleaned that from the authorial screeds that pass for explanatory footnotes in his rules but I learned a lot from reading Patrick's posts regardless 
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Jun 18, 2020 17:38
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So now the local con, Strategicon doesn't want to make a 'political' statement supporting Black Lives Matter. So basically I've told them either make the statement or I'll make sure that my very extensive local community of board gamers know that they refuse to support Black Lives Matter and we will not be returning. God drat what does it loving take, y'all!!!! It's just loving insane that the loving hobby can't step up to the loving plate. Well loving racists, you can keep your loving con. We'll play elsewhere.
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Jun 18, 2020 18:40
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Eklund is a giant PoS and if you don't believe you can separate politics from your hobbies you really shouldn't be supporting him with your money.
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Jun 18, 2020 19:03
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Crackbone posted:Eklund is a giant PoS and if you don't believe you can separate politics from your hobbies you really shouldn't be supporting him with your money. Which is why I refuse to play any of his games, he's horrible.
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Jun 18, 2020 19:07
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god drat it sucks poo poo that lacerda's such a PoS. gently caress. I guess I'm saving money by not going in on his yearly kickstarters at least, now.
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Jun 18, 2020 19:10
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Impermanent posted:god drat it sucks poo poo that lacerda's such a PoS. gently caress. I guess I'm saving money by not going in on his yearly kickstarters at least, now. I tried to explain. He would have none of it, and even dug in. I'm not selling my Lacerda games but I'm not being any new ones. If I feel I have to have a Lacerda game, I'll buy it used. Unfortunately I've already signed up to host On Mars on Tabletopia, but if you play his games on Tabletopia, he's gets paid, so keep that in mind. I want to make one thing clear, I'm not angry if people decide to continue to support him. I'm not going to, but in this case, I have no issue if people make a different choice.
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Jun 18, 2020 19:13
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