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Azathoth posted:Even talking about "gnosticism" as a single coherent set of beliefs is fraught. Aside from the teachings being secret or otherwise reserved for the initiated, it's really hard (and maybe impossible) to come up with a single definition of gnosticism that covers the range of groups labeled gnostic that doesn't also just straight up include early Christianity. A focus on an inner spiritual life isn't exactly a feature unique to gnostic groups. Prurient Squid posted:For Bird in particular. these two conversation streams are working hard to describe the enduring influence of the neoplatonic demiurge w/o specifically mentioning it
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 12:15 |
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# ? Jun 9, 2024 21:21 |
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Inspired by the last comment I dipped back into The Enneads. There seems to be a distinction between divine intelligence which is spontaneous and apprehends everything immediately as what it is and human reason which is discoursive, wrestles with logic and doubt and tends to produce "doxa" which is doctrine, dogma and opinion. Very interesting.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 13:58 |
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I have only a passing familiarity with numerology / numerical associations within mysticism but three seems to have been considered an efficacious sacred number for basically ever. Triads and tripartite Deities are all over the place in pagan religions. Nine being three threes makes sense for also being a powerful number then, I guess. Regarding the Enneads specifically, I actually read something recently which made me think of you / our conversation about them and the way Porphyry was possibly in part making an allusion to the Egyptian Enneads with that title. I didn't copy this into this thread at the time because it is long and would have been a bit out of the blue. LITERALLY A BIRD posted:
There's a bunch more if you want to follow the quote back through, it was a whole section on Greco-Roman theurgy and Neoplatonism. Prurient Squid posted:There seems to be a distinction between divine intelligence which is spontaneous and apprehends everything immediately as what it is and human reason which is discoursive, wrestles with logic and doubt and tends to produce "doxa" which is doctrine, dogma and opinion. Very interesting. Anecdotally, last year I began to learn to read tarot cards and now that I have some familiarity and confidence with them your description here reminded me strongly of the way interpreting the cards now sometimes occurs for me. When I started I had to think about each individual card meaning every time and carefully build the communication I felt I was receiving through them, like putting letter tiles into place in a board game. I would reason through each one to try to understand what I felt was being said to me through them. Now, often, when I lay out cards I glance at them and as you say, I experience a moment of spontaneous understanding of the communication. I can then break down that spontaneous understanding by identifying each symbol and meaning independently, but when I do that it paradoxically becomes harder to correctly convey to others what I am seeing, now that my discursive mind is involved and is overanalyzing and reinterpreting and second guessing what had originally been delivered in a moment of seemingly perfect knowledge.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 15:30 |
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Nemo Somen posted:Based on my understanding of Christian Gnosticism, my interpretation of one of the major issues the (what would become) Church would probably be that Gnosticism sort of sets up a (what sounds suspiciously polytheistic) system where only special people have access to God's Truth and can thus be saved. If the Gospel of Mark was any indication, that's the opposite of what the early Church believed (i.e. that God is available to all). So I can understand why the early Church would be aggressive with opposing Gnosticism, including the other challenges Christian Gnosticism would offer them. Oh yeah, I was going to inquire after this post too. When you say "only special people have access to God's Truth and thus can be saved" are you referring to this line of thinking? Quote obtained from BRD's big post last page. quote:Man can be saved from the powers of the demiurge, of him who creates the world. But not all men are able to be saved. There are three classes of human beings: the pneumatikoi, i. e. , the Spirituals; the psychikoi, those who follow the soul; and the sarkikoi, those who follow the flesh. The sarkikoi are lost; the Spiritual ones are saved; but the middle group, the psychikoi, can go this way or that way. In order to reach the elevation, man must participate in the mysteries. I ask because I think I would disagree with your analysis there, if so. If one wanted to look at this passage from a wholly Christian perspective, those three classes would be like, Christ's faithful disciples; and the people who wish to learn his teachings but have not yet had opportunity to learn them; and those who reject his teachings completely ("it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle," right?). What the Gnostic gospels like the Book of Thomas seemed intended to do was help a person advance upon the path of esoteric wisdom, again, that internal Divine, while Christianity today is much more exoteric and "the mysteries" have been excised and labeled magic, mysticism, and heresy. e: lmao I just realized my copy of The Nag Hammadi Scriptures has an introduction by Pagels. LITERALLY A BIRD fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Mar 30, 2024 |
# ? Mar 30, 2024 18:10 |
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:, while Christianity today is much more exoteric and "the mysteries" have been excised and labeled magic, mysticism, and heresy. Nominalism the reason for that, and only some Christian denominations are nominalist.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 18:31 |
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Sure, but you know what they say about bad apples. A couple pages ago it was decided that Christianity doesn't actually proscribe divination, right? But if the prevailing perception is that it does, then functionally, for many many people, it does.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 18:38 |
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:Sure, but you know what they say about bad apples. A couple pages ago it was decided that Christianity doesn't actually proscribe divination, right? But if the prevailing perception is that it does, then functionally, for many many people, it does. I used to spend a lot of time arguing about it in D&D. Here’s the thing, there are a lot of nominalist evangelicals. Instead of ideas having reality, the things they believe in they consider them materially real. Many of these people leave Christianity and they’re still nominalists. They just have removed some things from the set they thought materially existed. Both the evangelical nominalist and the atheist nominalist are still going to look a divination in the same way. It’s modernity. Though that’s arguably our fault as well.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 18:53 |
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I just remembered that Hegel considered Dialectic to be Negative Reason and Speculation to be Positive Reason. Now that I understand the definition of Reason as discursive that makes more sense.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 18:56 |
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Nominalism the reason for that, and only some Christian denominations are nominalist. Wait, hang on. Surely almost every single Christian denomination has some level of discussion about what counts as mysticism and what is "bad ideas" as it were? Also I am enjoying the Gnostic discussion, but one of the things I find most interesting about it is the idea that somehow it ends up in flipping Provence of all places having been exised from Christianity in the early years. Most likely something that looks a bit like Gnostic ideas takes hold and you end up with local clerics deciding "this is the same thing as PAST BAD THING". That and, ultimately, the idea of the material as being made wrong on purpose by someone who is a bit of a dick seems to make more sense than the idea that it was made by an omnipotence who wants us all to be happy but [insert problems here] keeps happening because [insert which answer you want to the problem of evil you want here] Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Mar 30, 2024 |
# ? Mar 30, 2024 18:56 |
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Josef bugman posted:Wait, hang on. Surely almost every single Christian denomination has some level of discussion about what counts as mysticism and what is "bad ideas" as it were? It’s not about good or bad. It’s about what is thought to actually have existence and reality. But then following that is an assertion is that belief in things unreal is bad.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:03 |
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Josef bugman posted:That and, ultimately, the idea of the material as being made wrong on purpose by someone who is a bit of a dick seems to make more sense than the idea that it was made by an omnipotence who wants us all to be happy but [insert problems here] keeps happening because [insert which answer you want to the problem of evil you want here]
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:08 |
Bar Ran Dun posted:I used to spend a lot of time arguing about it in D&D. Here’s the thing, there are a lot of nominalist evangelicals. Instead of ideas having reality, the things they believe in they consider them materially real. Many of these people leave Christianity and they’re still nominalists. They just have removed some things from the set they thought materially existed. Both the evangelical nominalist and the atheist nominalist are still going to look a divination in the same way. I would certainly agree that there are plenty of people who grow up conservative American-style Christians, later snip out the 'Christian' part and even perhaps much of the 'conservative' part, but keep the other parts of the framework and get very mad when things go against them.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:11 |
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Alright I am getting baptized tonight. Any last minute preparations I should make at the recommendation of the religion thread, for goons?
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:23 |
NomChompsky posted:Alright I am getting baptized tonight. Any last minute preparations I should make at the recommendation of the religion thread, for goons?
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:33 |
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NomChompsky posted:Alright I am getting baptized tonight. Any last minute preparations I should make at the recommendation of the religion thread, for goons? Don’t do what I did and become so overwhelmed at the realization that you are completely free of sin that you softly, but audibly, whisper “Holy poo poo!”
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:36 |
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welcome to da club
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:59 |
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Hey if jews don't do baptism then what was John up to
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:06 |
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Killingyouguy! posted:Hey if jews don't do baptism then what was John up to quote:Although the term "baptism" is not used to describe the Jewish rituals, the purification rites in Halakha, Jewish law and tradition, called tvilah, have some similarity to baptism, and the two have been linked. The tvilah is the act of immersion in naturally sourced water, called a mikva.[2][unreliable source?][3] In the past Hebrew Bible and other Jewish texts, immersion in water for ritual purification was established for restoration to a condition of "ritual purity" in specific circumstances. For example, Jews who (according to the Law of Moses) became ritually defiled by contact with a corpse had to use the mikvah before being allowed to participate in the Holy Temple. Immersion is required for converts to Judaism.[4] Immersion in the mikvah represents a change in status in regards to purification, restoration, and qualification for full religious participation in the life of the community, ensuring that the cleansed person will not impose uncleanness on property or its owners.[5][non-primary source needed][6] It did not become customary,[7] however, to immerse converts to Judaism until after the Babylonian Captivity (586–539 BCE).[8] This change of status by the mikvah could be obtained repeatedly, while Christian baptism, like circumcision, is, in the general view of Christians, unique and not repeatable.[9] Even the so-called rebaptism by some Christian denominations is not seen by them as a repetition of an earlier valid baptism and is viewed by them as not itself repeatable.[citation needed]
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:08 |
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s not about good or bad. It’s about what is thought to actually have existence and reality. Surely that is Materialism though, not nominalism? Nominalism implies that something named is true/not true? Orbs posted:One major reason I'm attracted to poly/pantheism so much is that it is a much more compelling explanation of the problem of evil (and good) than any monotheist religion I've ever encountered. Parts of the world are good because some of the gods are nice. Other parts are bad because some of the gods are assholes. (Plus of course, all beings having free will.) That feels a lot better to me than "your omnibenevolent, omnipotent creator made you bad and wrong on purpose, to teach some lesson or as part of some grand plan for the universe". I don't need or want that stuff to give mythic resonance to my suffering. Some people do and want to know why the suffering is more personal and like the idea of the deity suffering with them. The problem is the idea that 1) This much and 2) But that doesn't explain X.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:09 |
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Nessus posted:Can you unpack a little more on nominalism here, because given the topic you're describing I think I get it but I want to kind of be sure. So ask a question like what are angels and demons? In a realist sense they can be abstracts or ideas or lesser powers of being or lower emanations, etc. In a nominalist sense these have to be things if they are real: "there is nothing general except names". They have to be phenomenon and not noumenon. They just add the religious things to the not really a phenomenon thus not real category when they convert to atheism. An angel merely goes from being a thing one might observe to something not in reality that can’t be observed or encountered physically.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:10 |
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Josef bugman posted:Surely that is Materialism though, not nominalism? Nominalism implies that something named is true/not true? Nominalism there are no essences or universals. Basically the same conversation and sometimes it’s materialist / idealists. It just depends on the context of participants in the discussion.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:13 |
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Josef bugman posted:Surely that is Materialism though, not nominalism? Nominalism implies that something named is true/not true?
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:18 |
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I found a Marx quote that is relevant. "Materialism is the born son of Britain. Even one of his great schoolmen, Duns Scotus, asked himself ‘whether matter cannot think.’ In performing this wonder, Duns had recourse to God’s omnipotence, that is, he made theology itself preach materialism. He was, moreover, Nominalist. Nominalism is one of the main elements of the English materialists, as it is indeed the first expression of materialism in Christian Europe."
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:20 |
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Nominalism there are no essences or universals. Basically the same conversation and sometimes it’s materialist / idealists. It just depends on the context of participants in the discussion. I suspect that I'd plumb on the side of Materialism, if only because believing in a universal or essences seems to be none provable and only having an effect based on the belief in them.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:37 |
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Duns Scotus is a realist though.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:38 |
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Then either Marx was mistaken or there's some kind of nuance I'm not picking up on to do with what it means to consider universals "real". By the way I'm really digging The Enneads. The problem is I haven't actually made it to the text! Having made it through a note by Mackenna on Plotinus' language I now have to read a note on Plotinus' role in history by some other guy. But I'm enjoying it all the same. I think it's time to switch from A Course in Miracles an focus on The Enneads for a while.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 21:04 |
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i think Marxian historical materialism is different than the whole theological discussion here
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 21:08 |
So angels either have to be physically observable (if presumably very subtle) or totally imaginary, and imaginary concepts are not considered things of any kind? (Or are just neurological patterns rather than something exterior). Is that rightish?
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 21:13 |
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why does every thread i read eventually turn to the subject of gnostic marxism
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 21:19 |
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Pellisworth posted:i think Marxian historical materialism is different than the whole theological discussion here I mean yes but it is still a Materialism. It rests on the existence of things as they are. Squizzle posted:why does every thread i read eventually turn to the subject of gnostic marxism I mean the Gnostics have a very strongly critical element to them. Bogomilists are at least part of it I suspect. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Mar 30, 2024 |
# ? Mar 30, 2024 21:31 |
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Don’t do what I did and become so overwhelmed at the realization that you are completely free of sin that you softly, but audibly, whisper “Holy poo poo!” Well, gently caress.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 21:35 |
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Don’t do what I did and become so overwhelmed at the realization that you are completely free of sin that you softly, but audibly, whisper “Holy poo poo!” lmfao
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 21:58 |
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Squizzle posted:why does every thread i read eventually turn to the subject of gnostic marxism the Monad is the base and the Demiurge is the superstructure Josef bugman posted:I mean yes but it is still a Materialism. It rests on the existence of things as they are. my understanding (which is poor, not a philosopher) is something like: nominalism - only things in the physical/real world exist. universal concepts or abstract ideas exist only in the minds of humans, they're just names we give things and don't actually exist. realism - universals and abstract things do exist outside of the mind of humans. Plato's forms are a good example. Historical materialism seems related to nominalism but is pretty specifically a lens to understand human history: for Marx, social/political changes in society are driven by developments in the mode of production and exchange and the structures and class conflict that results. edit: some googling suggests that Marx's thinking re: nominalism and realism is complex as gently caress and involves a lot of Hegel and other continental philosophy that is beyond me. so idk Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Mar 30, 2024 |
# ? Mar 30, 2024 23:00 |
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Nessus posted:So angels either have to be physically observable (if presumably very subtle) or totally imaginary, and imaginary concepts are not considered things of any kind? (Or are just neurological patterns rather than something exterior). Is that rightish? Compare communion in Catholicism to communion in a Anabaptist denomination. It’s just a memorial or a remembrance for the Anabaptists. The bread is what it is materially. It’s species is it’s existence. Where in Catholicism it’s substance really is the body of Christ. What it is is ontologically independent of the physical bread loaf. So when in early Christianity they are taking about angels and demons it has that context. Angel are abstracts or powers of being , ontologically independent, of the a material thing, and Origen’s cosmology is an example . But if an Anabaptist talks about Angels, they don’t have that category, there aren’t ontologically independent abstracts, if it’s real for them it has to be a thing. That stays the same if they become an atheist. Most modern people think about it like the Anabapists example even if they aren’t Anabaptist or a similar denomination.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 23:11 |
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Because, ultimately, it makes more sense in terms of what needs doing/thinking about. I think this might be one of the problems of Idealism in that it has to compete with things that effect the world in more immediate ways. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Mar 30, 2024 |
# ? Mar 30, 2024 23:15 |
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Josef bugman posted:Because, ultimately, it makes more sense in terms of what needs doing/thinking about. Well no it didn’t. And they’re not consistent about it. It’s incredibly useful to think in terms of abstract universals that exist ontologically independent of material things. And you might even do it! Does math have any objective truth ? If you say yes then you are treating math as an ontologically independent abstract that exists. No ,then it’s just a construction, an incredibly useful one, but not independently true. There’s also a middle roads where it’s a construction and but one that’s points to an ontologically independent abstract, and that’s what I think Marx is getting at with quote about Duns Scotus.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 23:49 |
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https://twitter.com/_F_B_G_/status/1717140151804014641
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 23:51 |
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Does math have any objective truth ? If you say yes then you are treating math as an ontologically independent abstract that exists. No ,then it’s just a construction, an incredibly useful one, but not independently true. There’s also a middle roads where it’s a construction and but one that’s points to an ontologically independent abstract, and that’s what I think Marx is getting at with quote about Duns Scotus. Eh, more thinking "is this practicable". Angels are not, and appear to not, have any impact on what occurs on the planet. Therefore it doesn't require you to believe in them because they are none material.
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# ? Mar 30, 2024 23:56 |
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Let’s get very abstract. One can look at a system of real objects. One can write down a statement about those objects as a system, that cannot be solved as it is written. Using a pattern one can turn that statement into another statement, that does not describe the physical system. From those second statement I can create controls that I can control what happens in the physical system with. 1) What am I describing? 2) Do the statements (either) have ontologically independent truth?
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# ? Mar 31, 2024 00:24 |
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# ? Jun 9, 2024 21:21 |
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Can you provide examples. Because it's 11 at night and I've had a beer to celebrate being off work for the next two and a half weeks and I don't think I quite get what you are aiming at.
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# ? Mar 31, 2024 00:27 |