Let's Wear Black: A Gothic Total War/Paradox Mega-LP

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theblastizard: Nov 5, 2009

Merdifex posted:

In that case, I'd modify RowansWarden's proposal a bit to include specifics:

Hellenic Islam

Unlike OTL where many Byzantine emperors scoffed at Muhammad's budding new religion, declaring it nothing more than some misguided Christian heresy held by backward desert savages, one emperor saw something more; he saw inspiration.

Upon receiving several letters from Muhammad, he put into writing his own improvements to Muhammad's own theology. Why would Theos (the term he used instead of Allah) speak to some desert barbarian in his own guttural tongue rather than to an emperor who spoke one of the most beautiful and prestigious language on earth?

In reality, the language of revelation was Greek, since the archangels Gabriel and Michael appeared to this emperor and pointed out that Greek was not only the best language, but also that Muhammad misinterpreted them greatly.

His writings and revelations were recorded by him and his followers in a collection of books called the Theonomy (god's laws.) It was revealed to him that you could marry more than one woman, among other things.

This new faith was called Paradinism, after the Greek word for submission.

This would be hilarious.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 00:45

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 14:02

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

This lady looks like an expert if I've ever seen one.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 00:50

ZearothK: Aug 25, 2008; I've lost twice, I've failed twice and I've gotten two dishonorable mentions within 7 weeks. But I keep coming back. I am The Trooper!

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021

I will sing the blues over the Levant and the Crescent shall rise.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 00:55

Frogfingers: Oct 10, 2012

The Hagia Sofia is getting her minarets a little earlier this time.

Muslim Byzantines, please

_{And Zoroastrian Persia.}

^{_{_{And pagan Egypt as well.}}}

# ? Jun 14, 2015 00:55

Rumda: Nov 4, 2009; Moth Lesbian Comrade

Merdifex posted:

Hellenic Islam

Unlike OTL where many Byzantine emperors scoffed at Muhammad's budding new religion, declaring it nothing more than some misguided Christian heresy held by backward desert savages, one emperor saw something more; he saw inspiration.

Upon receiving several letters from Muhammad, he put into writing his own improvements to Muhammad's own theology. Why would Theos (the term he used instead of Allah) speak to some desert barbarian in his own guttural tongue rather than to an emperor who spoke one of the most beautiful and prestigious language on earth?

In reality, the language of revelation was Greek, since the archangels Gabriel and Michael appeared to this emperor and pointed out that Greek was not only the best language, but also that Muhammad misinterpreted them greatly.

His writings and revelations were recorded by him and his followers in a collection of books called the Theonomy (god's laws.) It was revealed to him that you could marry more than one woman, among other things.

This new faith was called Paradinism, after the Greek word for submission.

gently caress yes. All is forgiven.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 01:32

Rejected Fate: Aug 5, 2011

Man votes are pretty close. I'm guessing we'll get Byzlam and Blue since they're not incompatible? I just want a lovely Zoroastrian Persia.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 01:39

Rubix Squid: Apr 17, 2014

Merdifex posted:

In that case, I'd modify RowansWarden's proposal a bit to include specifics:

Hellenic Islam

Unlike OTL where many Byzantine emperors scoffed at Muhammad's budding new religion, declaring it nothing more than some misguided Christian heresy held by backward desert savages, one emperor saw something more; he saw inspiration.

Upon receiving several letters from Muhammad, he put into writing his own improvements to Muhammad's own theology. Why would Theos (the term he used instead of Allah) speak to some desert barbarian in his own guttural tongue rather than to an emperor who spoke one of the most beautiful and prestigious language on earth?

In reality, the language of revelation was Greek, since the archangels Gabriel and Michael appeared to this emperor and pointed out that Greek was not only the best language, but also that Muhammad misinterpreted them greatly.

His writings and revelations were recorded by him and his followers in a collection of books called the Theonomy (god's laws.) It was revealed to him that you could marry more than one woman, among other things.

This new faith was called Paradinism, after the Greek word for submission.

This guy. Definitely this guy.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 02:02

Griffen: Aug 7, 2008

Voting blue lady b/c I don't think the ERE would have gone muslim. With the expansion of the Sassanids through the Levant and Anatolia, the Greek heartlands are the remaining areas that have some of the oldest traditions of Christianity. Unless in the Atilla game Christianity was eroded, Greece and whatever remains of the ERE is unlikely to drop 400+ years of heritage at the drop of a hat.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 02:19

AdventFalls: Oct 17, 2012; When do we learn head explosions?

# ? Jun 14, 2015 02:35

Jimmy4400nav: Apr 1, 2011; Ambassador to Moonlandia

Voting

# ? Jun 14, 2015 02:41

RowansWarden: Jun 3, 2013

Griffen posted:

Voting blue lady b/c I don't think the ERE would have gone muslim. With the expansion of the Sassanids through the Levant and Anatolia, the Greek heartlands are the remaining areas that have some of the oldest traditions of Christianity. Unless in the Atilla game Christianity was eroded, Greece and whatever remains of the ERE is unlikely to drop 400+ years of heritage at the drop of a hat.

I think that your concerns are reasonable, I would point out that for one, Egypt and the Levant in actual history were both deeply Christian before the rise of Islam, and yet became thoroughly Muslim. Moreover, I don't imagine the conversion happening at the drop of a hat by any means-- I mean, perhaps it was instigated by a single emperor with a startling change of faith (apparently Islamic tradition holds that the emperor Heraclius tried to do just that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius#Islamic_view_of_the_Emperor ), but I don't imagine it was a quick and easy transition. It seems to me, however, that there's enough time for Islam to gain significant ground (I meant to be vague in my proposal so that this could be anything from a majority of the ruling class at least claiming to follow Islam to almost complete Islamicization).

Of course, at the end of the day, I think the best reason to support my idea (and my main motivation for proposing it) is that Byzlam would be cool.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 02:45

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

If the Caliphate is fighting the Sassanids instead of the Byzantines over the Levant, maybe even fighting ALONGSIDE the Byzantines, I can see them looking at everything the Arabs have accomplished and going "You know what maybe there's something to this whole 'Islam' thing."

# ? Jun 14, 2015 02:54

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

RowansWarden posted:

(I meant to be vague in my proposal so that this could be anything from a majority of the ruling class at least claiming to follow Islam to almost complete Islamicization).

I appreciate vagueness, it gives wiggle room to play around with things, add surprises, and do tweaks if it turns out an initial idea doesn't exactly work out as planned/it's hard and I'm lazy.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 02:58

ThatBasqueGuy: Feb 14, 2013; someone introduce jojo to lazyb

reignonyourparade posted:

If the Caliphate is fighting the Sassanids instead of the Byzantines over the Levant, maybe even fighting ALONGSIDE the Byzantines, I can see them looking at everything the Arabs have accomplished and going "You know what maybe there's something to this whole 'Islam' thing."

Best of all it confuses byzantophiles.

(the one with Greek Muslims)

# ? Jun 14, 2015 03:04

NewMars: Mar 10, 2013

I wish to somehow Vote for Hellenic islam, republic arabia and muslim persia.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 03:28

tabris: Feb 17, 2011; by FactsAreUseless

This lady has some good ideas.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 03:54

Martello: Apr 29, 2012; by XyloJW

Merdifex posted:

In that case, I'd modify RowansWarden's proposal a bit to include specifics:

Hellenic Islam

Unlike OTL where many Byzantine emperors scoffed at Muhammad's budding new religion, declaring it nothing more than some misguided Christian heresy held by backward desert savages, one emperor saw something more; he saw inspiration.

Upon receiving several letters from Muhammad, he put into writing his own improvements to Muhammad's own theology. Why would Theos (the term he used instead of Allah) speak to some desert barbarian in his own guttural tongue rather than to an emperor who spoke one of the most beautiful and prestigious language on earth?

In reality, the language of revelation was Greek, since the archangels Gabriel and Michael appeared to this emperor and pointed out that Greek was not only the best language, but also that Muhammad misinterpreted them greatly.

His writings and revelations were recorded by him and his followers in a collection of books called the Theonomy (god's laws.) It was revealed to him that you could marry more than one woman, among other things.

This new faith was called Paradinism, after the Greek word for submission.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 04:01

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Blooming Brilliant posted:

Out of interest is India going to be for debate? And I may have missed this in the OP but since we're going full alt-history will you be playing with Sunset Invasion?

If he was I'd prefer it to be a surprise. Though using Sunset Invasion takes alot away from the colonization gameplay mechanics of EUIV, so that might be a concern.

The position of the Gothic kingdom might also mean that the fate of the LP itself will be at significant risk if Sunset Invasion is used.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 04:20

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Randarkman posted:

If he was I'd prefer it to be a surprise. Though using Sunset Invasion takes alot away from the colonization gameplay mechanics of EUIV, so that might be a concern.

Yeah, I think we should do it without SI just so that we can have proper colonization

# ? Jun 14, 2015 04:22

TTBF: Sep 14, 2005

BwenGun posted:

/

Republican Arabia and Muslim India

After the Prophets death expansion from the Arabian peninsular was first checked by the Sassinid Empire, then by Christian Axum before finally having what gains they'd made in the Levant swiftly lost to religious revolts as the lords of Arabia, bitter at defeat, turned upon one another. Fractured and exhausted by a long series of intercine struggles the prominence of the traditional nobility faded and in their place rose a series of Merchant republics who came to dominate the trade between Axum and India, the flow of spices, silks and other exotic goods making them hugely wealthy and influential. Where the sword in Egypt and Persia had failed wealth and influence succeeded in India, leading to widescale conversions amongst both the nobility and common folk along the Western coast of India and Sri Lanka.

I'm going with this. We don't have any republics so far and those are nice to have. I was going to propose a Byzantine Republic or group of republics in Greece when we got to that, but it seems pretty clear people want three strong Romes.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 04:31

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Though my vote is still for republican Arabia and Islam in India, Hellenic Islam is fantastic. I hope Merdifex's and RowansWarden's suggestions are counted together.
Though blue might still win. Haven't counted but I'm pretty sure its in the majority, you blue dudes should take a look at some of the grey proposals (especially if you are voting for blue just to preserve Zoroastrians!).

Randarkman fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Jun 14, 2015

# ? Jun 14, 2015 04:45

Empress Theonora: Feb 19, 2001; She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.

RowansWarden posted:

In the early days of Islam, missionaries brought the faith to the Eastern Roman Empire. Faced with an existential threat from the Sassanids to the east and the ever-growing power of the Bishop of Rome to the west, the Emperor embraced Islam. By the eighth century, the Byzantines were largely Muslim, and they managed to reclaim some of western Anatolia while the Arabs expanded into most of the Sassanid lands west of Persia. Persia itself remained Zoroastrian, while Christian Axum still ruled Egypt.

Muslim Byzantium

Actually, changing my vote to this!

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:02

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Randarkman posted:

Though my vote is still for republican Arabia and Islam in India, Hellenic Islam is fantastic. I hope Merdifex's and RowansWarden's suggestions are counted together.

My suggestion was basically the same as RowansWarden's with more details tacked on. If RowansWarden would agree and goons want then I guess the two can be reconciled. I think a bit more specific is better than vague.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:05

Jack2142: Jul 17, 2014; Shitposting in Seattle

heh... I am sure he was planning on having a seperate event for the byzantines, but a greek islamic heresy is pretty cool

Heraclius did not burn Mohammed's letter!

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:07

Aeromancia: Jul 23, 2013

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:09

sniper4625: Sep 26, 2009; Loyal to the hEnd

redacted

sniper4625 fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jun 14, 2015

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:10

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

I'm just gonna count the two as votes for the same thing regardless, because people are gunning for them both for the chance to see Muslim Byzantines anywho.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:10

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

Merdifex posted:

In that case, I'd modify RowansWarden's proposal a bit to include specifics:

Hellenic Islam

Unlike OTL where many Byzantine emperors scoffed at Muhammad's budding new religion, declaring it nothing more than some misguided Christian heresy held by backward desert savages, one emperor saw something more; he saw inspiration.

Upon receiving several letters from Muhammad, he put into writing his own improvements to Muhammad's own theology. Why would Theos (the term he used instead of Allah) speak to some desert barbarian in his own guttural tongue rather than to an emperor who spoke one of the most beautiful and prestigious language on earth?

In reality, the language of revelation was Greek, since the archangels Gabriel and Michael appeared to this emperor and pointed out that Greek was not only the best language, but also that Muhammad misinterpreted them greatly.

His writings and revelations were recorded by him and his followers in a collection of books called the Theonomy (god's laws.) It was revealed to him that you could marry more than one woman, among other things.

This new faith was called Paradinism, after the Greek word for submission.

A Greek Islamic heresy? I want to see how this ends up.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:10

Bozart: Oct 28, 2006; Give me the finger.

ThatBasqueGuy posted:

Best of all it confuses byzantophiles.

(the one with Greek Muslims)

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:12

General Antares: Sep 5, 2011; There be corundium up in them thar asteroids!!!

http://lpix.org/2083513/onionface4.png

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:19

Frionnel: May 7, 2010; Friends are what make testing worth it.

Lots of zoroastrians and a great amount of muslims to balance things out? This is the most fun option.

Frionnel fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jun 14, 2015

# ? Jun 14, 2015 05:36

Drone: Aug 22, 2003; Incredible machine

Merdifex posted:

In that case, I'd modify RowansWarden's proposal a bit to include specifics:

Hellenic Islam

Unlike OTL where many Byzantine emperors scoffed at Muhammad's budding new religion, declaring it nothing more than some misguided Christian heresy held by backward desert savages, one emperor saw something more; he saw inspiration.

Upon receiving several letters from Muhammad, he put into writing his own improvements to Muhammad's own theology. Why would Theos (the term he used instead of Allah) speak to some desert barbarian in his own guttural tongue rather than to an emperor who spoke one of the most beautiful and prestigious language on earth?

In reality, the language of revelation was Greek, since the archangels Gabriel and Michael appeared to this emperor and pointed out that Greek was not only the best language, but also that Muhammad misinterpreted them greatly.

His writings and revelations were recorded by him and his followers in a collection of books called the Theonomy (god's laws.) It was revealed to him that you could marry more than one woman, among other things.

This new faith was called Paradinism, after the Greek word for submission.

Yep, this is my vote.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 06:41

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Hellenic Islam.

reignonyourparade posted:

If the Caliphate is fighting the Sassanids instead of the Byzantines over the Levant, maybe even fighting ALONGSIDE the Byzantines, I can see them looking at everything the Arabs have accomplished and going "You know what maybe there's something to this whole 'Islam' thing."

Yeah, the political situation could probably help give Islam an in. First by having a former backwater-of-a-backwater kick the rear end of people who have been kicking Byzantine rear end for ages, and then later, assuming the First Fitna still happens, whichever Islamic faction holds Syria might allow* the Byzantines the chance to expand into Anatolia. This would help cement the idea that Islam really is divinely favored, working for both primitive tribal Arabians and noble civilized Greeks. If whatever faction exists in Syria was then defeated, perhaps some of the supporters could move into Byzantine lands to escape whatever punishment the other faction had planned, bolstering the numbers of low-to-mid level followers of Islam, creating a stronger core from which the conversion from Christianity to Islam could spring from.

*As in be unable to oppose during a civil war and trying to save face.

On the more theological side of things, going completely into the "Jesus was just a prophet" camp right away would probably be a bit much, even for an emperor, but if Islam was initially adopted as an alternative Christianity (which I think it might have been seen as early on historically too), and only later moved closer to Islamic orthodoxy (as a result of Arabian scholars and religious figures escaping persecution) then it's not as much of a stretch. Just like Persia had a major influence on Islam, the Byzantines surely would too though, and I imagine Jesus would still have a very prominent place as the prime non-emperor prophet, so as to make conversion easier, with the others being there more to establish the "historical credentials" of the faith.

If Persia remains standing, I suppose the spread of Islam in Eurasia would largely be redirected north and north-west from Byzantium instead of east and north-east from Persia. If we imagine Islam was checked in the west by a stronger Hispanic Empire then you'd have a situation where you had Christianity in the west and Islam in the east, unlike the historical north and south. Perhaps West Africa could also be blessed with Christian missionaries many centuries before they did historically. Alongside Muslim ones, obviously, resulting in fun for the whole family.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 06:47

Raserys: Aug 22, 2011; IT'S YA BOY

Merdifex posted:

In that case, I'd modify RowansWarden's proposal a bit to include specifics:

Hellenic Islam

Unlike OTL where many Byzantine emperors scoffed at Muhammad's budding new religion, declaring it nothing more than some misguided Christian heresy held by backward desert savages, one emperor saw something more; he saw inspiration.

Upon receiving several letters from Muhammad, he put into writing his own improvements to Muhammad's own theology. Why would Theos (the term he used instead of Allah) speak to some desert barbarian in his own guttural tongue rather than to an emperor who spoke one of the most beautiful and prestigious language on earth?

In reality, the language of revelation was Greek, since the archangels Gabriel and Michael appeared to this emperor and pointed out that Greek was not only the best language, but also that Muhammad misinterpreted them greatly.

His writings and revelations were recorded by him and his followers in a collection of books called the Theonomy (god's laws.) It was revealed to him that you could marry more than one woman, among other things.

This new faith was called Paradinism, after the Greek word for submission.

Changing my vote from Purple Guy to this, but without anything west of the Sinai.

Raserys fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Jun 14, 2015

# ? Jun 14, 2015 06:50

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Merdifex posted:

In that case, I'd modify RowansWarden's proposal a bit to include specifics:

Hellenic Islam

Unlike OTL where many Byzantine emperors scoffed at Muhammad's budding new religion, declaring it nothing more than some misguided Christian heresy held by backward desert savages, one emperor saw something more; he saw inspiration.

Upon receiving several letters from Muhammad, he put into writing his own improvements to Muhammad's own theology. Why would Theos (the term he used instead of Allah) speak to some desert barbarian in his own guttural tongue rather than to an emperor who spoke one of the most beautiful and prestigious language on earth?

In reality, the language of revelation was Greek, since the archangels Gabriel and Michael appeared to this emperor and pointed out that Greek was not only the best language, but also that Muhammad misinterpreted them greatly.

His writings and revelations were recorded by him and his followers in a collection of books called the Theonomy (god's laws.) It was revealed to him that you could marry more than one woman, among other things.

This new faith was called Paradinism, after the Greek word for submission.

Voting for this.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 09:02

Rody One Half: Feb 18, 2011

So many out to betray Axum.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 09:06

GSD: May 10, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

vote changed

The Greeks can be islamified when the mistakes of Xerxes's invasion are corrected and all of Greece is under Persian rule.

GSD fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jun 14, 2015

# ? Jun 14, 2015 09:08

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Yeah, the political situation could probably help give Islam an in. First by having a former backwater-of-a-backwater kick the rear end of people who have been kicking Byzantine rear end for ages, and then later, assuming the First Fitna still happens, whichever Islamic faction holds Syria might allow* the Byzantines the chance to expand into Anatolia. This would help cement the idea that Islam really is divinely favored, working for both primitive tribal Arabians and noble civilized Greeks. If whatever faction exists in Syria was then defeated, perhaps some of the supporters could move into Byzantine lands to escape whatever punishment the other faction had planned, bolstering the numbers of low-to-mid level followers of Islam, creating a stronger core from which the conversion from Christianity to Islam could spring from.

*As in be unable to oppose during a civil war and trying to save face.

On the more theological side of things, going completely into the "Jesus was just a prophet" camp right away would probably be a bit much, even for an emperor, but if Islam was initially adopted as an alternative Christianity (which I think it might have been seen as early on historically too), and only later moved closer to Islamic orthodoxy (as a result of Arabian scholars and religious figures escaping persecution) then it's not as much of a stretch. Just like Persia had a major influence on Islam, the Byzantines surely would too though, and I imagine Jesus would still have a very prominent place as the prime non-emperor prophet, so as to make conversion easier, with the others being there more to establish the "historical credentials" of the faith.

If Persia remains standing, I suppose the spread of Islam in Eurasia would largely be redirected north and north-west from Byzantium instead of east and north-east from Persia. If we imagine Islam was checked in the west by a stronger Hispanic Empire then you'd have a situation where you had Christianity in the west and Islam in the east, unlike the historical north and south. Perhaps West Africa could also be blessed with Christian missionaries many centuries before they did historically. Alongside Muslim ones, obviously, resulting in fun for the whole family.

It should also be mentioned that historically the Byzantines kind of went into Iconoclast mode in response to the challenge they faced in Islam and a belief that they might have strayed in belief where the Muslism had not or something like that.

But, in this history the Muslims will not be conquering Byzantine lands, they will be fighting the Sassanids, the very enemy that seized much of the Eastern Roman Empire to begin with. Seeing the Arabs, the children of Ishmael, united behind their Prophet defeat or at least hurt their mortal enemy Persia might go very far towards making many Romans in the east sympathetic towards Islam. It might even seem to be a message from God.

Randarkman fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Jun 14, 2015

# ? Jun 14, 2015 09:29

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Since so many people want Hellenic Islam and Islamic Byzantium, I wonder if they want proper Islam to be united under Sunni or divided amongst Shia and Ibadi as well.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 10:00

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 14:02

AJ_Impy: Jun 17, 2007; SWORD OF SMATTAS. CAN YOU NOT HEAR A WORLD CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE? WHEN WILL YOU DELIVER IT?; Yam Slacker

Merdifex posted:

Since so many people want Hellenic Islam and Islamic Byzantium, I wonder if they want proper Islam to be united under Sunni or divided amongst Shia and Ibadi as well.

It seems to be leaning towards a 'Many Islams' interpretation. If the Hellenic version is strong enough to stand unopposed, it stands to reason that none of the others are in an overwhelming position.

# ? Jun 14, 2015 10:08

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > Let's Wear Black: A Gothic Total War/Paradox Mega-LP

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