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Could it be that the ambiguity is intentional? Like it's supposed to remind you of the scary, unknowable question of how much of your intellect or free will is really "free," versus how much is after-the-fact rationalization of what your biology demands? Could it be that trying to erase the tension that powers a narrative with one million words of fanboy theorycraft is not only doomed to failure but pointless to begin with? These answers and more, coming never, on Let's Play Final Fantasy
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Nov 17, 2013 21:26
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The great thing about Jenova is that she's established incredibly as an powerful entity threatening all life. And a trickster. Then she proceeds to have have next to no direct presence in the story, except for exactly one line: "You are a puppet". Pretty hard to see how you are not supposed to have some doubts about who is the one pulling the strings. If you are going to establish a strict canon explanation for something that worked because of ambiguity, at least don't make it as boring as "Meh, the eldricht abomination in the shadows? Just a plot device to give people superpowers". But I doubt "like the Bible" was how even the developers meant their answers to be taken on some interview about a story with several other creators.
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Nov 17, 2013 22:26
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Wholeheartedly agree that a wonderful aspect of this game is that Jenova isn't ever "explained" properly. Not in a direct way. For example, one interpretation of the Jenova / Sephiroth "who is in control?" question that, strangely, I haven't seen, and that seems rather obvious, is that it is actually a Mother-Son relationship. Perhaps Jenova, though a parasitic cosmic horror who desires chaos and despair, actually bonds with Sephiroth and they communicate telepathically. Perhaps they are together seeking to feed on the hope and life of the planet and of all organic beings. We know that Jenova can communicate telepathically, so perhaps the entire time that Sephiroth talks like a crazy person to Mother, he is actually communicating with it(her?) and they have some twisted relationship where Sephiroth, once he has freed it, can go and sit in a crater while Jenova goes and uses it's powers to summon Meteor and then they can both revel in the death of the planet. It seems like everyone here assumes Jenova cannot possibly have affection for anything other than itself (herself), but maybe infecting a human baby with Jenova cells provoked Jenova to want to adopt it in a twisted way. Over time, Jenova became attached to the child. Maybe they argued, maybe Sephiroth had a rebellious streak, maybe he realized the error of his ways, maybe they now want to eradicate all life in the universe together. It maybe unlikely if you have accepted Jenova as an unfeeling virus, but maybe Sephiroth provoked something different. Forgive me if that seems like an easily dismissed interpretation, but to me it's another example of something the game doesn't spell out but leaves as an enticing possibility.
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Nov 18, 2013 02:00
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Sir Nimblebottom posted:For example, one interpretation of the Jenova / Sephiroth "who is in control?" question that, strangely, I haven't seen The last time this derail came up (where someone also brought up that line from Hojo as if Hojo is an authority on the relationship between a complex alien space disease and super soldiers he crafted through  ), a popular opinion was that it was more interesting to think of their relationship as a buddy cop scenario.It's not an easily dismissed interpretation. There's so much ambiguity that the most easily dismissed thought is assurance.
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Nov 18, 2013 04:32
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For all Hojo's insanity, I think we should take him as an authority on Jenova. He's the only on doing experiments on it (and thus the only one with data) and he's obviously getting good enough results to stay on the payroll. Hojo is mad and uncaring about humanity, but he certainly cares about science and nobody's usually unilaterally insane. Plus he's presented as an authority; otherwise, what's the point of him being in the game? The only other source we really have is Bugenhagen (and to a lesser extent, Aeris) and there is overlap there. What seems to differ is implementation of this information.
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Nov 18, 2013 04:44
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simplefish posted:For all Hojo's insanity, I think we should take him as an authority on Jenova. He's the only on doing experiments on it (and thus the only one with data) and he's obviously getting good enough results to stay on the payroll. Hojo is mad and uncaring about humanity, but he certainly cares about science and nobody's usually unilaterally insane. Plus he's presented as an authority; otherwise, what's the point of him being in the game? The only other source we really have is Bugenhagen (and to a lesser extent, Aeris) and there is overlap there. What seems to differ is implementation of this information. Basically, Hojo's explanation is a theory. It also is a theory that cannot be ruled out by evidence that the game gives. That does not make his conclusion absolutely true. The problem with dealing with a manipulative character in fiction is that it's hard to reach concrete conclusions. This happens because the character is manipulative, and usually functions on many different layers, as well as destroys or covers up evidence that might aid investigators. If the situation isn't extensively explained, you can always create more layers, because that's how manipulation works. EDIT: vvv And yes, Hojo is also a cock bucket. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 04:54
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simplefish posted:For all Hojo's insanity, I think we should take him as an authority on Jenova. He's the only on doing experiments on it (and thus the only one with data) and he's obviously getting good enough results to stay on the payroll. Hojo is mad and uncaring about humanity, but he certainly cares about science and nobody's usually unilaterally insane. Plus he's presented as an authority; otherwise, what's the point of him being in the game? The only other source we really have is Bugenhagen (and to a lesser extent, Aeris) and there is overlap there. What seems to differ is implementation of this information. Hojo has also lied his rear end off about a shitload of stuff. He's very clearly got his own agenda going on here - even if that agenda is simply 'make myself look good by making everyone believe that MY creation is the one threatening the world'. The fact of the matter is that Hojo is stupidly untrustworthy and we should not believe anything he says. Ever.
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Nov 18, 2013 04:56
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Momomo posted:He also says Cloud wasn't a real person and was just a clone his entire life, which we know isn't true. Why are you so certain? Have YOU ever seen Cloud's father?
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Nov 18, 2013 04:59
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Momomo posted:He also says Cloud wasn't a real person and was just a clone his entire life, which we know isn't true. Wait, when? I don't remember this at all, mind refreshing my memory? Anyways, if he did he knew he was wrong and just said it to gently caress with Cloud's mind.
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Nov 18, 2013 10:00
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Man with Hat posted:Wait, when? I don't remember this at all, mind refreshing my memory? Back at the crater, when Cloud was having a breakdown. Hojo and they all assumed that he was one of the clones.
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Nov 18, 2013 10:01
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Galick posted:Back at the crater, when Cloud was having a breakdown. Hojo and they all assumed that he was one of the clones. He just says Cloud is a clone he created. A failed one. The use of the word clone in this game is pretty lovely because the "clones" are just people infused with Mako and Jenova Cells, they are not clones in the way that we read it. They are just manipulated people, not created from scratch. Hojo does say he gave Cloud life but that's probably just Hojo having a hosed up view on life. Hojo probably considered Cloud to be dead and the new Cloud to be, you know, new.
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Nov 18, 2013 10:16
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simplefish posted:For all Hojo's insanity, I think we should take him as an authority on Jenova. He's the only on doing experiments on it (and thus the only one with data) and he's obviously getting good enough results to stay on the payroll. Hojo is mad and uncaring about humanity, but he certainly cares about science and nobody's usually unilaterally insane. simplefish posted:Plus he's presented as an authority; otherwise, what's the point of him being in the game?
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Nov 21, 2013 01:22
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Soricidus posted:And we have no reason to suppose Hojo is that great. His continued employment is hardly a great endorsement of his talent, if his peers at Shinra are anything to go by. Really, considering they put Palmer of all people on their board of directors, Shinra desperately needs a QA division.
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Nov 21, 2013 01:41
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Soricidus posted:Scientists are occasionally wrong about things, you know. Even the greatest minds, people who aren't remotely insane and are universally recognised by other scientists as the leading experts in their fields, have been known to say things that later turn out not to be correct. And we have no reason to suppose Hojo is that great. His continued employment is hardly a great endorsement of his talent, if his peers at Shinra are anything to go by. You're applying real-world rules to what is essentially a kind of nice anime. Hojo's an authority because he says things in a voice animes use to dispense facts about their world. There's really no ambiguity, if you know the narrative language the game is born from beforehand.
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Nov 21, 2013 01:58
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YourAverageJoe posted:You're applying real-world rules to what is essentially a kind of nice anime. Hojo's an authority because he says things in a voice animes use to dispense facts about their world. There's really no ambiguity, if you know the narrative language the game is born from beforehand. True, but this game is all about unreliable narrators. On the surface Sephiroth is in control, but so was Cloud. The mind control on him was really subtle for most of the time, but he didn't really start pursuing Sephiroth because they had a score to settle, he did it because it was time to join the reunion. What seemed like his own idea was just a smokescreen. It's impossible to tell if Jenova is in control or not because her pawns might have no idea if their own motivations are real or if they are actually just following someone else's instinct. BioMe fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Nov 22, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 12:05
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I like this duality
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Nov 22, 2013 14:22
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simplefish posted:I like this duality Yeah, I prefer some things being left ambiguous. Even though Ridley Scott's official stance on Blade Runner is that Deckard's a replicant, that doesn't stop me from thinking the story works better the other way.
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Nov 22, 2013 14:53
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Ridley Scott is a (currently) hack director. Philip K Deck is the only man with any input as to whether or not Deckard is a Replicant. Or as to just what was reality in Total Recall.
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Nov 23, 2013 00:41
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The author is dead. Philip K Deck doesn't get to decide if Dickard is a friendly robot any longer.
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Nov 23, 2013 00:44
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Oh cool, this is turning into a great PoMo studies thread. Also Hojo doesn't even remember Cloud, since he has to ask his number, so it's kind of obvious after that point that he's way out of his depth. The game makes it clear that he's not half the scientist Gast was, so any truth he skirts close to just leaves him stunned and nihilistic. He's a really great character, I think!
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Nov 23, 2013 01:08
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Need one of those "I Believe in Harvey Dent" posters but change it to I Believe In Hojo. We have three authorities on Jenova and all of them are questionable. Authority 1 is Ifalna, Aeith's mother and last pure Cetra. She has no reason to lie but she's working with info that has prsumably been passed down for thousands of years. Or maybe the Planet told her some things? Overall, she's the most trustworthy. Authority 2 is Sephirot, Jenova's pseudo-descendant. Now he and Ifalna actually agree on something: Ifalna: That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past. Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova." This is why I don't believe it's even debatable about Cloud using the Jenova Cells within him. He was a blubbering mess when Tifa found him and only once the Cells had used their innate powers did he recover. Now Seph isn't a total authority because he did definitely lie his rear end off just to screw with Cloud. But if anyone knows how Jenova works, it's him. And Hojo of course predicted the whole Reunion thing. He was just off about the fact Sephiroth would bring Jenova to him instead of all the Clones going to her/it. Presumably this is because he thought Sephiroth was dead. So I think all three of them present more or less the same picture of Jenova. Even if you can't trust one of them, one of the others backs up what they said. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Nov 23, 2013 |
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Nov 23, 2013 06:21
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And neither does Ridley Scott. 
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Nov 23, 2013 07:14
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That loving Sned posted:Yeah, I prefer some things being left ambiguous. Even though Ridley Scott's official stance on Blade Runner is that Deckard's a replicant, that doesn't stop me from thinking the story works better the other way. My own take on it is that it doesn't matter if Deckard is a Replicant. The story works either way. "It's too bad she won't live, but then again who does?"
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Nov 23, 2013 08:37
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The real question is "Who is Gaff?" Except for the best character in the film.
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Nov 23, 2013 08:51
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NikkolasKing posted:Need one of those "I Believe in Harvey Dent" posters but change it to I Believe In Hojo. Sephiroth at one point believed that Jenova was an ancient, so he's been wrong in different ways at different parts of the story.
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Nov 23, 2013 09:23
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That was human Sephiroth though. He's literally been spending five years soaking in all the knowledge ever gathered by anyone who lived on the FFVII planet. As he himself said in the Temple of the Ancients, he's surpassed the Cetra by traveling the Lifestream and learning all the Cetra ever knew plus a lot more. It's why he should know as much as anyone else about what Jenova was capable of.
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Nov 23, 2013 15:57
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NikkolasKing posted:That was human Sephiroth though. He's literally been spending five years soaking in all the knowledge ever gathered by anyone who lived on the FFVII planet. As he himself said in the Temple of the Ancients, he's surpassed the Cetra by traveling the Lifestream and learning all the Cetra ever knew plus a lot more. It's why he should know as much as anyone else about what Jenova was capable of. I wonder if he remembered that Cloud was at Nibelheim at all or if he just wanted to mess with him.
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Nov 23, 2013 16:38
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SelenicMartian posted:The real question is "Who is Gaff?" Except for the best character in the film. Admiral Adama before he joined the military.
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Nov 23, 2013 17:29
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Fister Roboto posted:Why are you so certain? Have YOU ever seen Cloud's father? Yeah, we had a couple of beers once. Told him his son ran from wolves a lot, he didn't seem too surprised.
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Nov 23, 2013 18:05
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Fister Roboto posted:Why are you so certain? Have YOU ever seen Cloud's father? It's Jecht. X-2 and the Ultimata guide linked the two games' universes together, and X takes place before VII. Stupider things have happened in the FF series, especially quite recently.
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Nov 23, 2013 22:49
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That loving Sned posted:It's Jecht. X-2 and the Ultimata guide linked the two games' universes together, and X takes place before VII. So Tidus and Cloud are brothers? Maybe cloud really was just a spirit all along! How deep does this rabbit hole go! 
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Nov 23, 2013 23:19
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SpookyLizard posted:Ridley Scott is a (currently) hack director. Philip K Deck is the only man with any input as to whether or not Deckard is a Replicant. Or as to just what was reality in Total Recall. Dick didn't write either of those movies. Does that mean that everything about them that was different from the original stories is wrong, too?  IMO there's no such thing as "canon," there's only texts. Cause "canon" in the nerd sense is the pretense that if two contradictory texts exist, one is right and the other is wrong; that if there is an ambiguity in a story, there's an objectively correct answer to it. But these are stories, not realities. To leave something unknowable isn't a mistake or a deficiency, it's part of the story. That's cool
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Nov 23, 2013 23:22
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waah posted:So Tidus and Cloud are brothers? Maybe cloud really was just a spirit all along! How deep does this rabbit hole go! Tidus is Cloud. Or rather, Tidus is Cloud's teenage years. Cloud couldn't cut it for SOLDIER because he kept his pants legs different lengths.
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Nov 23, 2013 23:28
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That loving Sned posted:It's Jecht. X-2 and the Ultimata guide linked the two games' universes together, and X takes place before VII. Is this as dumb as it sounds?
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Nov 23, 2013 23:39
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Blind Melon posted:Is this as dumb as it sounds? He's joking, thankfully.
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Nov 23, 2013 23:47
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About Jecht being Cloud's father, yes. About the whole "worlds being linked" thing? No. Hell, you even meet a person named Shinra on your ship in X2 who talks about using the life stream as a power source.
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Nov 23, 2013 23:53
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swamp waste posted:Dick didn't write either of those movies. Does that mean that everything about them that was different from the original stories is wrong, too? To an extent? Yes. By I think if you argue about whether or not Deckard is an alien, you've sort of missed the point. And Deckard walks around with a canon the entire movie.
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Nov 24, 2013 00:08
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I'm really starting to wish that Elentor would lock the thread between updates.
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Nov 24, 2013 00:18
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Woebin posted:I'm really starting to wish that Elentor would lock the thread between updates. Some of the discussion IS interesting. Like learning about how Sephiroth isn't just a anime haired swordsman, who has mommy issues. It just puts more depth that I think the game doesn't give him. Yeah, I have to agree with you though. Especially the Deckard thing, is that even RELEVANT? I don't see why that was mentioned.
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Nov 24, 2013 00:50
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It's just an example of how something can be ambiguous in a story.SpookyLizard posted:And Deckard walks around with a canon the entire movie. Haha oh poo poo i missed a joke somewhere didn't I  . Anyway I'll give it a rest, I mean it does make sense that this isn't the thread to discuss anything that isn't the plot of Final Fantasy 7.
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Nov 26, 2013 01:06
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