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FCKGW: Its interesting to hear that a Fronius string inverter would be used. Definitely the field tested approach. The micro-inverters do offer per panel management though, so if one panel is shaded temporarily, the other panels' production is not compromised; unlike strings where shade on one panel can compromise the whole string. This tends to make the micros a good choice for roofs with a small amount of shading to be considered; and possibly allows more panels and square footage to be utilized. Adorai: junidog was 100% correct. Geothermal pumps use a ton of power by solar/off-grid standards. Every call I've taken on them finds the pumps using 3 - 5 HP, with duty cycles anywhere from a few hours up to 24 hours per day(during peak winter and peak summer). An off grid solar electric system to support just a pump and nothing else would be in the range of $20,000 - $50,000. I have yet to have a single taker order a system to support a geothermal pump. Ninja edit: some of the larger houses have two pumps requiring twice as much system to run them.
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Aug 14, 2013 01:43
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Great (and timely) thread! We'll be buying a freehold house in the coming years, and we were wondering about exactly this. We live in Canada. So there's about 3 months of consistent Summer sun. Followed by 9 months of hit-or-miss crappy weather. Is it worth exploring solar electricity given our climate?
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Aug 14, 2013 01:57
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What is a freehold house? What type of system would you be considering? Completely off-grid? If so, then its just a matter of comparing the cost to bring in utility lines to the cost of a solar electric system to decide if its worth it. Pure grid tie? Not a big fan of it myself. If there are no government or utility subsidies the Return On Investment can be lousy, at well over 20 years typically. If you have reeeaally high utility costs, the equivalent of 20 cents(US) per kwh or more, then it can be worth it. In general, the further north you go, you'll have GREAT summers for solar, and lousy winters. Getting a system to sustain you 6 months out of the year would be feasible, but for off-grid you would want a top notch generator for most of the winter months. Geography matters though, as coastal and mountainous regions can have drastically different amounts of sunny weather, all within 100 miles of each other. We have plenty of off-grid customers in Alaska, who have lived solely with generators for years, and have purchased and built solar systems that they know will only be useful 6 months out of the year, but love it, because of the savings in fuel cost and transportation, and the savings in noise pollution in not having to run the genny every time they want power. Internetjack fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 02:13
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This is a little less residential, but solar powered nonetheless. I'd been thinking of using an 11 footer box truck for tailgaiting/light (where you can drive it lol) camping, etc, with http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-400-Watt-Deluxe-Off-Grid-Kit-GS-400-KITD/203600791#specifications and mounting the solar panels right on the top of the box. Using that kit and running the cables down, would that set-up be enough to, for example, reliably power a desktop computer on a sunny california day, and is a system like that capable of any expansion, like buying a few extra panels? My budget is $4000. What would you recommend for a battery, and anything else to make this system run as safely as it can?
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Aug 16, 2013 01:53
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Its a modest kit of mid-quality equipment at a decent price. It has its pros and cons. First, keep in mind for your application; the warranty on the panels will be voided when mounted on a vehicle. I don't read warranties all day long, but have yet to see any panel that doesn't mention a void if mounted on a vehicle. That being said, lots of people obviously do it. The size of the Grape panels is good, as they are smaller and probably sturdier at freeway speeds than a larger panel. We've always suggested a panel with a stabilizing bar for consideration, for the additional reinforcement against wind rattling when traveling down the road. See the diagram on the second page of this spec sheet: https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/KYOCERA/KD+135+F+Series.pdf Excessive vibration due to wind can hasten microfractures in the silicon, leading to shorter panel life. The idea is the extra frame structure should help reduce that effect. I have absolutely zero scientific data to back that up though. I've never cared for Blue Sky controllers. I believe the quality is considered to be okay; its just the design approach I've always hated. They were an early adopter of MPPT as concept but their designs are always so limited, and usually at similar costs to much more flexible products from their competitors. That model for instance, can only use panels with a voltage input of a nominal 12 volt panel, up to about 22 Voc. This means you must use 12 volt panels, all tied in parallel. Any other decent MPPT controller is going to allow a Voc of 60 Voc or up to 150 Voc. Much more flexibility in array layout allowed here. Those same 4 panels could be wired in series at nominal 48 volts, one set of + and - wires, instead of 4, to accommodate, and smaller gauge to get off the roof and to the charge controller. Or, you could use two nominal 24 volt panels in series, or two 30 volt panels in series, etc. Not a huge issue for your application, but an amazing display of short-sightedness in equipment design that you see in all Blue Sky products. Also, at 25 amps there is no room for expansion. It's terrifying they don't mention the inverter model, but we can see its one of the low end Xantrex product line units. It should last a 2-5 years and be considered disposable when it dies. It has no battery charger for backup charging of the batteries from a generator or shore power. The claim of 400 watts of panels collecting a usable 1200 watthours of power is nice and even a little conservative if they were mounted facing due south at proper seasonal angle. On a flat roof, the 1200 is probably spot on. Good for Home Depot for not making an outrageous claim there as many other vendors often do. A gaming quality desktop computer from the last four years will probably use about 250 watts. Running it for 4 hours will use 1000 watt hours or most of the collected power. A high quality Dell laptop uses about 35 watts, and can obviously be run much longer before using 1000 watt hours. $4000 is a decent budget, I'd skip the Grapes and the Blue Sky. I'd get four of the reinforced Kyocera panels linked above, tie them in a single series string at 48 volts and use and OutBack Flexmax60(FM60) charge controller. You'll end up with 540 watts total in the array, that'll collect 1500 usable watt hours on a typical sunny day. The FM60 is just a better product all around, and actually includes a LCD display, instead of just a couple of LEDS. You'll have a bit of room for array expansion, but not much. OutBack recommends a max array size of 800 watts on the FM60 for a 12 volt battery bank. BUT!!! On a 24 volt battery bank the array size can be doubled up to 1600 watts. This is awesome if the unit ever gets repurposed for a bigger system in the future, and is something the Blue Sky controller can definitely NOT do. Maybe put a 60 to 80 amp class R fuse between it and the battery bank. For battery bank sizing, you can consider the amount of power consumption you expect, and the amount of reserve you want before the batteries get too low. If you want to use about 1000 watt hours a day, and you want to never go below 50% state of charge, and your want 3 days of reserve before you do reach 50%, get a 6000 watt hour battery bank. In the case of a 12 volt battery bank, that would be 500 amp hours total. That could be two 250 amp hour batteries, or maybe 3 167 amp hour batteries, all 12 volt, tied in parallel. Obviously, two or only one day of reserve before hitting 50% would mean less battery. Get a sealed gel or AGM for your mobile application to avoid spilling and venting of gasses. I'd recommend considering DEKA as a good brand. The inverter is going to be a weak link no matter how you slice it. A low end Xantrex or maybe a Samlex will be all that is available at 12 volts for 1000-2000 watts, pure sine, with no battery charger in the price range of $400-700. A quality mobile inverter would wreck your budget starting in the price range of $1200 - $2000. Just hope to get a good 5 years out of it and be happy if you get more. Lastly, without one built into the inverter you select, you'll want to consider a stand alone battery charger for backup when the sun doesn't come out for extended periods. You could rig up something like the IOTA5512 with the IQ4 accessory to be ready to plug into utility power for when you take the van back to a garage after a weekend of being on the road. One of the main things I like in this recommendation besides the quality and performance, is the display on the OutBack. No matter how small the system, it is always nice to have a digital display somewhere in the mix that shows some degree of battery and panel performance(and a lot more) above and beyond simple blinking LEDs.
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Aug 17, 2013 07:31
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Jack if you charged me for that post I wouldn't even mind. Thanks a bunch for the information! On the subject of the panels themselves, the reinforcement is definitely necessary. My friend who is helping me with this project has a 2000 watt system on an RV and he'd recommend it even for city driving. Do you recommend any retailers other than Home Depot for this? If I can find everything in one place I might be able to save some cash. I'm located in the California Bay Area.
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Aug 17, 2013 22:02
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Its always good to hear the thread is helpful! No charge, A/T thread rides for free! I don't have any specific vendors to recommend. If you're calling or visiting, you can always ask the person you're speaking with, "What type of system do you have on your home?". I feel its a bit reassuring when the vendor uses the products themself. Its not necessarily a deal breaker or maker either way, but can help decide if you want to choose them for your business. Also, price is important, but not everything. How much before, during, and after sales tech support does the vendor make available? How much do you think you'll need or want? Sometimes the information and help you get from a vendor that has slightly higher prices, is worth a lot more than a slight break in price to with a vendor that can't or won't be there to answer questions.
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Aug 18, 2013 19:29
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Thanks very much for the good info in this thread. We average a monthly usage of about 1200kWh in the Houston, TX area. Charts show something like 4 hours of average good usable sun a day. How many panels would I need to offset that? Do common panels yield 150w? 250w? Have you worked with freestanding canopies (car ports, gazebos, parking lot stuff like: http://www.protekparksolar.com/ ) ?
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Aug 22, 2013 19:03
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Internetjack posted:Its always good to hear the thread is helpful! No charge, A/T thread rides for free! Yeah, this thread is awesome. I wish that I had questions for you, but our house already has a string of solar PV panels and mounts for a second string that we'll eventually install when we're eligible for a second round of Oregon state incentives. I'd love to put solar heating (water/passive/active) into our home, but it's my understanding that there's not a good way of meshing that with our natural gas furnace. Is that correct? I'd love an excuse to use one of these incentive programs, but I'm not sure what would be a practical addition: http://www.oregon.gov/energy/RENEW/Pages/solar/Support-RETC.aspx
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Aug 22, 2013 20:06
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duodenum posted:Thanks very much for the good info in this thread. If that is a monthly average, based on a full year, than we can go with: 1200kwh/month = 40 kwh/day. You'll need an array of about 10,000 watts total for a 100% offset. A typical, large panel these days will be 250 watts; so a total of 40 panels. The panel measures ~66" x 39" so the array would take up a fair amount of space. It'll cost about $280 per panel without any sales/rebates/or shipping costs. A panel can be expected to yield about 85% of its factory rating on a "typical" day. On cold crisp days it'll hit 100% or more; on really hot days, it will yield less. Most people doing system design account for that in their number crunching without explicitly telling you so. The car port idea is really cool. I have no first hand experience myself with them, but it essentially is clever use of mounts and space. Its really more of a construction project than a system design consideration. They should be solid, able to withstand someone driving into the posts at parking lot speeds. The tilt may not be optimized, but is not a big deal, given plenty of space is typically available, adding in a few more panels to compensate, at today's low prices is not a big deal. Besides that though, I love the idea. You're utilizing wide open unused space, shading cars, shading blacktops, providing good air flow to mitigate temperature affects, etc. If it is well built, what's the downside? Kaal: Solar Water Heating(SWH) can be used a couple of ways depending on what you want to do. The most straight forward way is to supplement a water heater that uses propane or natural gas. You may have to change your water heater to do so, but what you are looking for is a unit that raises the temperature of the OUTGOING water to a preset level; say 105 degrees F. If the incoming water is already that hot from your roof collectors, then no fuel is used to raise the temperature. This can be enough for many homes to use little or no gas to heat their water in the summer months. In the winter or cloudy days, only enough fuel to raise the temp as needed is used(if its too hot, the system should mix in cold water to cool the temp). SWH can also be used in radiant floor heating systems. Essentially used to run hot liquid through piping buried in your floor. Obviously this is easier to build into new home design, rather than for retrofitting an existing home. Both systems are very effective. The energy to run the necessary pumps can be kept to a minimum by a SWH designer that knows what they are doing, which can allow the system to also be supported by solar electricity. There is definitely more detail and applications available for SWH. For me, its kind of a side technology that I know about, rather than one I work with on a regular basis. As always, feel free to ask a professional on the topic what type of system they use themselves.
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Aug 23, 2013 01:55
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My family has got a completely off-grid cottage, and we're looking at the idea of putting a solar system to make life a bit easier with some lighting and a proper fridge (we've got propane fridge/stove right now). Only looking to run it for the spring to fall seasons, as winter in Canada gets too cold. Any ideas on initial gotchas and things to consider in the beginning? We've got a large southern facing roof on a barn shed that could possibly be a good spot to mount the system.
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Aug 28, 2013 03:19
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Check the Energy Star ratings on the fridges you are considering. The lower the rating, the less you'll have to spend on the system to support it. A daily usage of 1 kwh per day or less is good. A unit at 2 kwh per day is probably extravagant in its feature set. The biggest consideration for seasonal cabins is battery care. How will the batteries be cared for during the winter months when no one is there? You have to make the best of a non-ideal situation. For small battery banks of 2 - 4 65 pound batteries, some people will actually take batteries home to their primary residence, and leave them on a trickle charger using utility power for the winter. That is probably not a reasonable option for larger battery banks that can weigh a total of 1000 pounds or more. In the case of a battery bank left alone for the winter, sealed batteries would be recommended. AGMs or Gel batteries. They are okay with sitting at fully charged, with a small trickle charge coming from the solar array for long periods. Turn off ALL loads in the cabin. Power off the inverter, preferably with a circuit breaker, and all DC loads that run directly off the battery bank, again, with circuit breakers if possible. Don't leave so much as a digital clock plugged in. On the solar side, leave the charge controller operational; and use an adjustable roof mount to tilt the panels up to the steepest angle possible, to help shed snow. Pay the local hermit to stop by after the big snow storms to brush snow off the array. The idea is to leave in the fall with the batteries at 100% state of charge, and cross your fingers for just enough trickle charge from the occasional sunny day to offset the natural discharge of the batteries. Hopefully when you return in spring, the batteries are still at or near 100%. Flooded lead acid batteries would NOT be recommended. They are attractive because of the lower cost, but do not suffer sitting unused for extended periods well, even if they are fully charged. They will start to age prematurely if not exercised(discharged/recharged a bit) on a daily/weekly basis, and have a shorter life expectancy. A fully charged battery won't freeze until temperatures at minus 70 degrees Fahrenheit. A battery at 50% though can freeze in the single digits. The batteries must be kept reasonably charged, or they can freeze, crack open, and leak electrolyte everywhere when thawed, which is not only a mess, but a potential fire hazard as well.
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Aug 30, 2013 01:37
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Solar install being wrapped up today. 33 panels are going up. Thanks for the help to everyone in this thread, it helped me understand a lot more about solar. Just have to wait for the electric company to inspect it and I should be live in a couple weeks. EDIT: Install done, not bad. 
FCKGW fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 18:49
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Hey, that looks pretty clean! Congrats! What'd you get for panels? I assume its grid-tie, yes? What type/make of inverters? Edit: I went back and read page one. Southwest exposure, in southern California. I'll be really curious to read what kind of production you get. Let us know what you see around noontime on a sunny day. Internetjack fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Oct 27, 2013 |
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Oct 27, 2013 07:12
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It was a fairly basic system. 33 Yingli YL250P-29B panels an 1 Fronius IG Plus 7.5 inverter. I ended up opting for a solar lease (officially a power purchase agreement) instead of purchasing and financing the system. My county has financing options for buying the system but the math just didn't work out. With this system the solar company owns the panels and I pay them a set amount every month. There's no escalation on this one and they gave me a $500 bonus to sign up. This system is guaranteed to produce 12,894 kWhs a year. I'll still be buying around 3,000kwh a year from the electric company but it should be mostly lower tier pricing. Over the long term it will cost more than buying outright but this way I can start saving on day one. My first year savings should be around $1000 and that will go up as electricity prices go up obviously. They're responsible for all maintenance and I'm sure that they won't want the panels after 20 years anyways so I'll likely keep the system if I'm even still in the house.
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Oct 28, 2013 01:06
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I've been wondering about solar air heating, essentially taking the air that's coming into the house and running it through some black pipes in a solar collector on the roof. Been curious to know if that's something worth pursuing to give that little extra boost, so you can dial down a degree or two on the regular systems and save some energy. No idea if it's viable or not. Especially when it would be most useful in winter and that's when we have the least sunlight here on the 63rd latitude.
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Oct 28, 2013 14:15
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His Divine Shadow posted:I've been wondering about solar air heating, essentially taking the air that's coming into the house and running it through some black pipes in a solar collector on the roof. Why not just use solar water heating and a radiator? It'd probably be more efficient.
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Oct 28, 2013 14:22
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MrYenko posted:Why not just use solar water heating and a radiator? It'd probably be more efficient. It would be hard to interface with the current system being built (ground heat exchange pump) for the house in question. Mucking with the air seemed like a much simpler alternative if I where to do something. Hmmm, I suppose one could connect it to the hot water tank, the pump has sensors in there and knows when to turn off and on. Wouldn't actually contribute to heating the house that way but save a bit on hot water consumption. Still, investment and return? His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Oct 28, 2013 |
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Oct 28, 2013 14:33
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His Divine Shadow posted:I've been wondering about solar air heating, essentially taking the air that's coming into the house and running it through some black pipes in a solar collector on the roof. I can answer this one, since my house was originally designed around this concept. The setup was this: 1) panels on the roof that collected solar energy in the form of heat 2) a system of fans that moved air through the solar energy collectors and through ducts into a heavily insulated room in the basement (heavily insulated means about 6 inches of that white styrofoam overtop of cinder blocks) 3) additionally, there is a wood burning stove in the living room which had a housing on the back of it and a fan that drove air past the back of the stove and down a pipe to a point below the foundation where it would then move through very coarse gravel and then come up through wood that was embedded into the basement floor and had holes drilled in it to allow air to rise up. This would (in theory) heat the floor of half of the basement 4) in addition to a forced air electric furnace, there was a second identical looking "air handler" which was essentially a furnace with no heating elements. Ducts would take air from the heat storage room and then distribute it through the house using the air ducts. There was some pretty fancy ductwork connecting the air handler, furnace and the ducts for the house. Is it viable? No. No, it isn't. And I'm down near Toronto so I'm a fair bit farther South than the 63rd parallel. The previous owner had it disconnected and the solar panels removed before we bought the house. According to him it cost *significantly* more to run all the fans and the air handler vs. just using the electric forced air furnace. Which is saying something since the furnace costs and arm and a leg to run, and that's per hour. I took out the insulation and the air handler a couple of years ago so it was just taking up space in my too-small house. The guy that put it in had it done in the early 80's (83 or 84) so he was pretty ahead of his time. If you included solar panels to run the fans you would save a bit, but running the air handler is pretty expensive. It's expensive to install, too. Now, I heat with wood. It's more work but worth it in the long run. I'm patiently waiting for a day in the distant future when they run natural gas down my street. Hope this helps!
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Oct 28, 2013 17:03
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I have a similar type need as the poster above with the "tailgating" rig. I am trying to find out if it's even worth my time to consider solar for my plans. I have a Motorhome. I am going to buy a generator for running AC, and charging 2 6-volt batteries, but I also want to tap solar power to minimize how much I have to run the generator. I do not have a $4,000 budget. Instead, I was kind of thinking I could cobble something together from Craigslist purchases, on the order of $500 (sans generator). That would be for a 240-watt panel, and a charge controller. Is anything else required, considering I have an inverter/charger built into the Motorhome? Power requirements are the lighting in the Motorhome (low watt incandescent that I will be replacing with LED/CFL), the RV fridge when we are moving (LP otherwise), the water pump (on a kill switch, so only used when needed), charging electronics (cell phones, laptops), using a laptop or two for a couple hours a day, a gaming console (360) for perhaps a couple hours a day, a 24 inch flat panel TV (4-5 hours a day) and some miscellaneous draws that I am only guessing about like the power needed to spark the igniter on the furnace (which runs on LP) and waer heater, and I assume the thermostat has a draw, as well as the panel that shows water pump status and tank levels. The motor home has an AC hook up that I would use when available. So, the ultimate goal here is Burning Man in the desert in Nevada. We would stow the solar panel until we get there, then deploy it to the roof. The hope is to run the generator for 2-3 hour a day, to escape the heat for a little bit by running the AC, then use the solar panel otherwise, to keep the batteries topped off for the night time when it is much cooler and we will only need lights and to play 360. Honestly, night-time is more for exploring the area, so we'll probably spend very little time in the RV in the evening, unless we need a rest/recovery period. Daytime will be for recovering and we'll probably need to run the water pump here and there and maybe play console or whatever. Outside of Burning Man, I do intend to use the RV for camping here and there for a couple of days at a time, or even as long as a week. Assuming I don't need the generator for AC, will a single 240 watt solar panel even come close to keeping the batteries charged with the draws I have laid out? I'm hoping there is enough information here to make a broad determination. I am an absolute newb at this stuff. Here is a link to a blog where a dude claims to run strictly on solar in a manner similar to what I am thinking, although he has a little more in panels (345 watts worth) than I intend. Hmm, I see now he has 4 batteries, instead of 2. http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/ "We run our TV, computer, battery chargers for phone, camera, tools, etc., plus coffee maker, microwave, mattress heating pad, toaster, waffle iron, hair dryer, vacuum, power tools such as skill saw, table and miter saws, router, sander, drills, heat shrink gun, soldering iron, etc. You name it. We live a normal life, except that our house is very small. My wife watches TV while she quilts with a sewing machine, using an electric iron to press the seams and I do remodeling & repairs, including building a big deck in 2006, using power tools connected to our rig, at a remote cabin with no electric service (where it rained for three days during construction). We have only 345 watts of panels (that is less than three new 130 watt panels), which we tip up to 50 degrees in the winter and four golf cart batteries giving us 450 amp hours of storage, so we can get through a few cloudy days. " Basicaly, his contention is that batteries never get charged up as much as they should, which shortens life, but also restricts how much power you get out of them. He rants about that in there. It's a long read, so don't bother if you don't want to. The excerpt above though, does this sound possible? He seems to have a bigger draw need than I am describing, what with all the power tools and what-not. He claims to be able to go 3 days without needing external power (either via solar, or AC hookup). The nice thing here is there is no generator right now, and we can pretty much design an electrical system from the ground up if we need/want to. I am not married to the inverter/charger in the RV at all, for example, if there is a better option.
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Oct 28, 2013 17:35
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JiimyPopAli posted:I took out the insulation and the air handler a couple of years ago so it was just taking up space in my too-small house. The guy that put it in had it done in the early 80's (83 or 84) so he was pretty ahead of his time. If you included solar panels to run the fans you would save a bit, but running the air handler is pretty expensive. It's expensive to install, too. It sounds like he might have over-engineered his system a bit. I used to be at a rural house where the owner had installed a secondary closed wood furnace system that did the same thing. But he utilized a lot of the existing air duct system and only needed a medium-sized fan to make it run. It was perfect for heating the house if power went out or the oil tank ran dry.
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Oct 29, 2013 18:59
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Kaal posted:It sounds like he might have over-engineered his system a bit. I used to be at a rural house where the owner had installed a secondary closed wood furnace system that did the same thing. But he utilized a lot of the existing air duct system and only needed a medium-sized fan to make it run. It was perfect for heating the house if power went out or the oil tank ran dry. You're probably right. While it used the existing ductwork in the house, the air handler is quite massive. The system was designed so that the "heat storage room" was to be filled with something in the future that would store heat better. I can't remember what they were called, but can dig out the blueprints for the house if anyone is interested enough.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:43
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killendino_001: You can compare the expected power consumption of the loads to the expected power collection of the panel. A 240 watt panel in a place like Burning Man can be expected to collect around 1000 to 1200 usable watt hours on a sunny day. Next, look at your loads. Some items in your list are easy to estimate. My Dell Inspiron laptop uses 35 watts; for 2 hours of running, that would be 70 watt hours. Two laptops for two hours would be 140 watt hours, etc... The television is easy, get the wattage information off the back, or the owners manual, and multiple by hours of operation for the watt hours. An 80 watt TV for 4 hours would be 320 watt hours. As you can see, its not difficult to quickly wrack up 1000 watt hours of power usage for a day. Instantaneous loads like spark ignitions and very small loads like cellphones are probably inconsequential. The battery bank is your gas tank, its only so big and any power taken out needs to be replaced, or you will run a deficit. You can compare the capacity of the battery bank to the estimate of the daily power consumption. Ideally the daily consumption would be about 10-20% of the bank's total capacity. Also, if the daily consumption is more than the panel can replace, you'll run deficit and draw the battery dead after so many days. As far as online accounts go, you may need to read between the lines. I have no reason to not believe all those loads can be run off a smaller system; but not all at once, or for a large number of them for long periods of time each day. A couple of them each day for varying lengths of time, sure. I think the air heating has been addressed. I honestly don't know much about it, but also, you don't hear much about it either. Simple systems work, but larger systems needing large volumes of air movement tend to lose their effectiveness and efficiency. Internetjack fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Oct 30, 2013 03:12
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Quick question. I have LED lighting all throughout the house, and if you add up every bulb in the house they can be powered by 2 solar panels. I'm guessing the power companies won't let me detach my lighting from the circuit breaker box and just rout it to an independent solar panel array? I really only need the power grid for appliances that draw a ton of amps to start like the air handler and arc welder =/.
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Oct 30, 2013 13:45
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Sancho posted:I'm guessing the power companies won't let me detach my lighting from the circuit breaker box and just rout it to an independent solar panel array? It's really none of their business. Many people have households that use utility power as their primary source of electricity, and use a small solar electric system for small and/or critical loads. People will put in a second "sub-panel" breaker box for the lighting loads and move the appropriate circuits and breakers to that box, and have that be energized by the solar electricity. Your local county/state may require some form of building permits, and it should probably be done to code for safety and to keep it from being a roadblock if you ever sell your home. If you have the skill set for that type of project, you can do it yourself. If you don't, then hire an electrician experienced in solar electric systems. Edit: I'm assuming a battery based system, not a grid-tie system, which would be the power company's business. One or two small panels would not be worth the effort of making grid-tie in most cases, thus I am assuming you meant a battery based system. Internetjack fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Oct 31, 2013 |
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Oct 30, 2013 14:43
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Internetjack posted:Edit: I went back and read page one. Southwest exposure, in southern California. I'll be really curious to read what kind of production you get. Let us know what you see around noontime on a sunny day. I finally got the go-ahead from SCE to turn the panels on last week. The solar meter is not reporting production numbers for some reason (they're replacing it tomorrow) but I'm currently running the utility meter backwards for most of the day. I should have little to no bill for about 6-8 months out of the year now.   I think at the peak I saw the inverter said I was producing around 6-7kwh of power.
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Jan 2, 2014 19:14
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Neat chart. That is weird you had to wait so long to turn things on. I'd have thought it was up in running since the day the install was finished. Why the delay? Looking at the chart, we can probably assume the negative hourly numbers shown are being offset by one or two kwh each hour on average. At peak production around noontime it looks like you produced 5.5-6.5 kwh for the hour. Not too shabby for an 8kw array at the worst time of the year for the angle of the sun. The temperature is good info too, 73F. Is that just the ambient room temperature where the display is, or is that actual roof/panel temp? If its roof temp, it'll be neat to observe any derating on real hot summer days compared to cooler days. Congrats on the surplus power too. See California, this guy is part of your brown out problem's solution! Edit: haha,I can tell your household woke up around 6 am on Tuesday, I'm guessing a coffee maker on a timer. Power tapered off late at night. Did you go out for new years, or just not stay up late? Power usage charts have lots of info! Internetjack fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 07:24
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So I jumped into this solar thing. Got all the paperwork done, and submitted to APS on the 31st of December to beat their deadline to be grandfathered into the old net metering plan. As of the 1st of January, they are charging a new 70 cents per KW tax to residential solar installations, and that tax is 'subject to change'. I'm doing a 6KW system which is calculated to give me a 65% or so offset based on my usage. The new tax would have cost me $4.20 per month. I'm doing this as a lease through Solar City, and I am on a fixed payment that won't change through the 20 year life of the lease. Projected install date now that all the paperwork is filed is mid to late February due to time to get all the permits and stuff. If the numbers work the way the models predict, I should see a reasonable $20-30 per month savings after the lease, when averaged over the entire year (I'm currently on an 'equalizer' plan, which gives me the same bills each month. This goes away when the solar gets switched on). The savings go up if (rather when) APS rates go up.
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Jan 4, 2014 18:29
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The Locator posted:So I jumped into this solar thing. Cool deal. I'd like to hear what panels and inverter equipment you get. Your geographic location, and the exposure of the panels is all good too. Once its up and running, share some daily production numbers. I find all that stuff interesting.
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Jan 4, 2014 23:39
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Internetjack posted:Cool deal. I'd like to hear what panels and inverter equipment you get. Your geographic location, and the exposure of the panels is all good too. Once its up and running, share some daily production numbers. I find all that stuff interesting. I live west of Phoenix, AZ. I get lots of sun. There is zero shade exposure on the panels. My house is a north/south orientation, so the panels are going to be evenly split on the east and west sides, and the roof has a modest 18 degree pitch. Looks like this:  The inverter is an Aurora PVI-6000-TL. The design doesn't give the specific module (24 modules in the array) to be used, but gives 5 possible: Yingli Solar: YL2XXP-29b Trina Solar: PA05.18 ReneSola: JC2XXM-24Bb BenQ: PM245P01_2XXW Canadian Solar: CSPX-2XXPX They guarantee that the system will generate 17,303 kWh in the first 24 months of operation, and then specify the guarantee for every 24 months after, with a 1% efficiency loss per 2 years. So at the end of the 240 months they guarantee 165,471 kWh of production from the system. For each 24 month period that the cumulative total is less than the guarantee, they refund me $0.1208 per kWh on the difference. The actual 'estimates' for production are somewhat higher than the guarantee, hopefully I'll be closer to those numbers: Initial year - 9,130 kWh Total term - 174,180 kWh.
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Jan 5, 2014 00:54
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The Locator posted:Phoenix, AZ Looks like a decent system with realistic numbers being quoted. An array of about 6000 watts. The first 24 months' estimate works out to 24 kwh per day. Completely realistic for AZ. The roof at 18 degrees is perfect to maximize production at the peak of summer, so I would not be surprised to see 36 kwh or more on some days during that season. The heat/derating is a consideration there. It'll be interesting if you get a cool, clear day during the summer, to compare it to a typical hot, clear, summer day. Aurora is still a new brand for me, but their stuff seems to address current design and application considerations, and can't say I've heard any negative reports on it. Good stuff. Please keep us posted as things progress.
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Jan 5, 2014 01:36
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The house I live in is east/west facing. There are a lot of trees on the west side of the house. We live in south georgia. Would there be any benefits to having panels installed on just the east facing side? I'm not sure of the area of the roof or the angles, but it has two angles on it.
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Jan 5, 2014 09:07
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With panels facing east, you'd gain a bit of production in the morning, but miss out on some of the prime collection around noon time. A very rough guess would be a net loss of about 20% overall compared to the same array at the same tilt, but facing due south. Not necessarily a deal killer. You just have to build a larger array to achieve the same daily goal. Ten years ago, that would have been a bad suggestion, but at today's lower panel prices, it's not outside of the realm of consideration.
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Jan 5, 2014 16:07
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Internetjack posted:Neat chart. We were waiting on our utility SCE to give the go ahead. After a solar install is done, if it's a net metering system, they have to send someone out to physically inspect the system and give the green light to start pumping power back to the grid. Their contract states that this inspection has to be done within 30 days, but it took them closer to 60. When they did come out they didn't even knock on the door but I knew they were there because I came home to a wide open breaker box on the side of my house. Honestly I could have just turned on the system myself but I wanted to to things the "proper" way. Once SCE gave the go ahead they just sent me a PDF telling me to change the switch on the inverter from off to on. In case I didn't mention it, I went with SunRun as the solar leasing company, 1BlockOffTheGrid was my "broker" (they gave me quotes on all the major solar providers). I ended up with 33 Yingli 250w panels and Fronius inverter, REC Solar was local installer and they're top dog in the area. The solar company charts started updating.  Ignore Friday readings, that was my fault. My inverter tells me how much I'm producing and at the peak I've seen it produce close to 7kwh, so I think that's where I'll be with ideal conditions. The 73F is actually the area temp which is provided by the utility company. The temp readings are taken from the school about 2 blocks away so it's pretty accurate. Most of our household starts at 6am. Coffee maker comes on, thermostat kicks the gas heaters on if it's too cold and the TV goes on. We were home for new years but I have 2 kids so I was in bed by 10pm anyways. I also turned my co-worker onto solar as well. He went with the same company as I and is getting a cheaper rate on his lease deal. He just had the engineer out to build a system, but he should be getting around 22 panels. His average electric bill is around $250 and his new solar bill should be around $160 with 90% production through solar, so he's pretty excited. FCKGW fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Jan 5, 2014 |
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Jan 5, 2014 16:39
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That's awesome that the inspector left the breaker panel open. Bureaucracy aside, nice to see things up and running, producing some good power. I would not be surprised to see your array hitting 40 kwh per day in a few more months as we move into spring.
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Jan 5, 2014 23:35
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I'd like to go back for a second... Am I understanding that Pheonix AZ, an almost ideal place for solar power generation, has a $.70/kwhr tax on solar being sold back to the grid? What the actual gently caress?
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Jan 6, 2014 01:24
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MrYenko posted:I'd like to go back for a second... Am I understanding that Pheonix AZ, an almost ideal place for solar power generation, has a $.70/kwhr tax on solar being sold back to the grid? APS is one of the two providers here and they were whining that solar users were getting the grid for free. SRP is the other and so far they haven't seen fit to gently caress solar customers over in the same way. Locator, keep up with the updates, I'm half tempted to do the same to my house.
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Jan 6, 2014 01:31
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SCE, the utility in my area, is seeking approval for a $10/mo charge to all net metering customers. They originally wanted closer to $50/mo. They've also changed their tiered rates this year to raise the lower first tiers in exchange for lower prices on the higher tiers. This also will hit most solar users who stay in the lowest tiers.
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Jan 6, 2014 03:11
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MrYenko posted:I'd like to go back for a second... Am I understanding that Pheonix AZ, an almost ideal place for solar power generation, has a $.70/kwhr tax on solar being sold back to the grid? The tax is based on the size of the installation, not based on power sold. So my system will be a 6kw system, so the tax would be $4.20 per month. However, this took effect on January 1st, and I got my paperwork in on December 31, so I'm grandfathered in and won't pay that. As part of the agreement, APS agreed to a nebulous third party performing some sort of a 'study' at some nebulous point in time, after which the tax will be adjusted based on the study of the actual cost of solar residential installs to the overall grid costs. It could go way up, or it could go way down. APS actually went to the ACC initially with a $10 per kw tax request. The Solar industry thought that the ACC was going to give them something (something being too high), and offered the $.70 rate the night before the ACC meeting, and the ACC grabbed onto it, since none of them really know wtf (elected officials controlling utility costs based on whatever massive pile of poo poo studies the utilities put in front of them.. good plan). IOwnCalculus posted:APS is one of the two providers here and they were whining that solar users were getting the grid for free. SRP is the other and so far they haven't seen fit to gently caress solar customers over in the same way. APS is private. SRP is a quasi-federal government agency (they were formed initially for water/the dams on the Salt River/irrigation stuff) so they play by their own rules, and tell everyone else to go gently caress off (they don't answer to the Arizona Corporation Commission either). Outside of the main metropolitan areas, there are actually a number of other utilities scattered around the state, but I'm not familiar with any of them.
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Jan 6, 2014 05:32
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MrYenko posted:I'd like to go back for a second... Am I understanding that Pheonix AZ, an almost ideal place for solar power generation, has a $.70/kwhr tax on solar being sold back to the grid? Yeah, power companies are *not* embracing residential grid-tie solar. They want the customers to pay to put power on the grid, to help pay for the infrastructure cost, since they have nothing else to charge them for.
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Jan 6, 2014 05:55
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