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rockopete posted:Sounds like NDTV jumped the gun then, thanks. Yeah, but the article also states possibly no-one in Russia is believing the bullshit Putin says and for me the changing reaction to the article is more important. The article itself is written in a way which makes Russia look like some kind of backwards-place. And many comments are already talking about how everyone should have expected Russia shooting itself in the foot, it's evil Russia after all! This does not bode well for peace.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:11
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Borodai resigns as PM of DNR? https://mobile.twitter.com/interfax_news/status/497413211063615488
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Aug 7, 2014 17:13
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Sigh, Brain65 beats me to the punch.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:13
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Sergiu64 posted:Sigh, Brain65 beats me to the punch. Pure luck, I happened to go for a smoke and noticed it. I only linked it because it as posted by interfax. Borodai denied it, then some accounts and tweets disappeared. I can only guess there's some sort of power-play happening in the DNR or the rats fleeing the nest.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:18
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Next Ukrainian presidential election may be interesting, with both legitimate choices available Yanukovich and Borodai - if the election is held within the walls of Kremlin
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Aug 7, 2014 17:23
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Libluini posted:Yeah, but the article also states possibly no-one in Russia is believing the bullshit Putin says and for me the changing reaction to the article is more important. The article itself is written in a way which makes Russia look like some kind of backwards-place. And many comments are already talking about how everyone should have expected Russia shooting itself in the foot, it's evil Russia after all! This does not bode well for peace. My friends from Moscow aren't super thrilled about it, but surprisingly calm. 'We'll just buy products from other countries, whatever,' may be the most common response. Sometimes I wish there were polls every month to monitor public opinion on thing like that. Maybe even honest ones.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:26
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The separatists have run out of free military vehicles from papa Vova, why not use the local ambulances. http://www.hrw.org/node/127854
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Aug 7, 2014 17:38
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Paladinus posted:My friends from Moscow aren't super thrilled about it, but surprisingly calm. 'We'll just buy products from other countries, whatever,' may be the most common response. Sometimes I wish there were polls every month to monitor public opinion on thing like that. Maybe even honest ones. All faux-Italian places trying to substitute mozzarella and other cheeses, hell, most of the foreign cuisine places will go belly up. People with low income don't buy European products in supermarkets, but even they go to restaurants and cafes.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:39
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fatherboxx posted:All faux-Italian places trying to substitute mozzarella and other cheeses, hell, most of the foreign cuisine places will go belly up. People with low income don't buy European products in supermarkets, but even they go to restaurants and cafes. Don't worry, they can buy cheese from Brazil instead. I'm pretty sure taste and quality will be the same. 
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Aug 7, 2014 17:40
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Entropia posted:loving yes! A trade war! Man, this'll be good. Lasting enmity towards Russia in Europe is also the best thing that could possibly happen to the EU. We need an enemy to unite against. Well all we got for our friendship were regular bans on certain exports for "health and safety reasons" and a plane with 200 EU citizens shot down so gently caress Putin and gently caress the Russians if they keep backing him.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:42
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fatherboxx posted:All faux-Italian places trying to substitute mozzarella and other cheeses, hell, most of the foreign cuisine places will go belly up. People with low income don't buy European products in supermarkets, but even they go to restaurants and cafes. I don't know much about cheeses, so I googled it and apparently they produce mozzarella somewhere near Kostroma. But yes, there are already jokes about it, like Russian Quattro Formaggi pizza will now be made with Rossijski, Poshekhoski, Adygejski and Bryndza.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:53
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A relatively chilling interview with an anonymous Ukrainian ATO soldier: http://m.gordonua.com/publications/Boec-Nacgvardii-Informaciya-o-363-pogibshih-lozh-V-ATO-ubity-ne-menshe-4-tys-voennyh-34760.html Goes into underreporting of casualties, friendly fire incidents, poor supply situation, etc.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:53
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MeLKoR posted:Well all we got for our friendship were regular bans on certain exports for "health and safety reasons" and a plane with 200 EU citizens shot down so gently caress Putin and gently caress the Russians if they keep backing him. I support the US/EU sanctions, but remember that almost all Russians are subject to a level of state propaganda saturation we would have trouble comprehending. The idea that the regime is lying probably never occurs to a great majority of Russians- in some respects they aren't responsible for their political beliefs, because their political beliefs are not their own.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:54
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Tonton Macoute posted:A relatively chilling interview with an anonymous Ukrainian ATO soldier: That's a massive interview, and pretty striking  Not super surprising or anything, but if you've read nothing but the livefeed (like 80% propaganda pieces). quote:In eastern Ukraine, the land after the rain turns into a mixture of clay, poo poo, mud, dust and superglue. We sank, sank as much on the shin camp in muddy swamp turned. quote:- Remember, the helicopter was shot down near Karachun? (May 29, terrorists shot down the helicopter Mi-8 in the Mount Karachun near Sloviansk. Killed 12 people - six soldiers the National Guard, including two crew members, and six representatives of the Ministry of Interior special forces. - "Gordon"). From the camp to the checkpoint on the ATO Karachun was 60-70 kilometers, it was necessary to bring the children food and ammunition. The shittiest of APCs 
Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 18:06
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I don't know how anyone could think that economic hardship would reduce nationalism when you consider the rise of the far right in post 2008 Europe.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:10
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Discendo Vox posted:I support the US/EU sanctions, but remember that almost all Russians are subject to a level of state propaganda saturation we would have trouble comprehending. The idea that the regime is lying probably never occurs to a great majority of Russians- in some respects they aren't responsible for their political beliefs, because their political beliefs are not their own. Oh come on! I was lucky enough to have been born after the end of the dictatorship but my parents (who aren't political at all) knew that nothing they read on the news was to be taken at face value. The Russians aren't retarded, there's no way they look at the crackdown on the internet and other news sources and think "yep, surely this was so we could know the truth". They lived in the USSR, are you telling me they have no idea what propaganda is? They know half of what comes out of the Kremlin is poo poo, but I guess that rolling over the Ukraine gives them a nice "we're badass, you can't mess with us bitches" feeling.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:11
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Tonton Macoute posted:A relatively chilling interview with an anonymous Ukrainian ATO soldier: That's very interesting; a good look into the situation on the Ukr side - a story few have an interest in probing. Gordonua via Google Trans posted:- We are in Kiev were confident that in the east, mainly mercenaries and local marginal fire intermittently, but most of the residents of Donbass in Ukraine. It turned out, according to the armored group that residents of the Ukrainian army took a hostile reception. :Nationalize the Oligarchs: archaeo fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 18:15
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^^^ All of Ukraine outside of Kiev is poor, and the East is actually supposed to be a bit better off then the West on average, so that's weird. Swan Oat posted:I don't know how anyone could think that economic hardship would reduce nationalism when you consider the rise of the far right in post 2008 Europe. Or in Germany as a direct result of 
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Aug 7, 2014 18:21
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Maybe the soldier meant all those little villages outside the big cities? Probably hard to get a good read on the "average" with all the wealth disparity.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:29
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Pimpmust posted:Maybe the soldier meant all those little villages outside the big cities? Probably hard to get a good read on the "average" with all the wealth disparity. Yeah, I suspect it's the standard "grass is greener elsewhere" feeling. Life sucks in the East, and they assume it's because the rest of the country is keeping them down. They don't really appreciate that life sucks for almost everybody.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:33
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ocrumsprug posted:Even if he drops the ban, those largely perishable items will either be rotting in a landfill somewhere, or for sale in another market. If only there was a country near Canada where the price of pork was skyrocketing recently to redirect that delicious magical meat towards.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:41
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quote:- According to the latest official information of NSDC, for four months of anti-terrorist operation killed 363 Ukrainian strongman. What do you think, is it true? archaeo fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 18:42
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MeLKoR posted:Oh come on! I was lucky enough to have been born after the end of the dictatorship but my parents (who aren't political at all) knew that nothing they read on the news was to be taken at face value. The Russians aren't retarded, there's no way they look at the crackdown on the internet and other news sources and think "yep, surely this was so we could know the truth". You and your family are unlikely to be representative by merit of even the fact that you're posting here. That said, propaganda saturation is effective even in its exclusivity. One need not trust the propagandist for propaganda to work, one need only distrust them less than the targeted enemy.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:42
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MeLKoR posted:Oh come on! I was lucky enough to have been born after the end of the dictatorship but my parents (who aren't political at all) knew that nothing they read on the news was to be taken at face value. The Russians aren't retarded, there's no way they look at the crackdown on the internet and other news sources and think "yep, surely this was so we could know the truth". But that's the thing. The average Russian doesn't have internet or alternative news sources. He lives in a tiny village or town in the middle of nowhere and gets all his news from Russian TV, newspapers and radio, which are all state controlled. The people that do have computers/internet access are a tiny minority and even then they discover that many online publications are censored/blocked by their isp and those that aren't are in English or some other foreign language they can't read.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:45
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mobby_6kl posted:^^^
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Aug 7, 2014 18:47
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Present posted:But that's the thing. The average Russian doesn't have internet or alternative news sources. He lives in a tiny village or town in the middle of nowhere and gets all his news from Russian TV, newspapers and radio, which are all state controlled. 76% of Russian population is urban.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:49
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Deteriorata posted:Yeah, I suspect it's the standard "grass is greener elsewhere" feeling. Life sucks in the East, and they assume it's because the rest of the country is keeping them down. They don't really appreciate that life sucks for almost everybody. My Russian isn't great, just about good enough to read without a dictionary, but as I understand it, it is the point that the soldier makes to explain why the local population supported the separatists. quote:Это прозвучит жестко, но раз люди молча терпели такую нищету, значит, такая им цена. Нужно вертеться, работать, а не ждать, что придет "хозяин" и скажет: "Братан, на тебе работу, машину и квартиру". Но на Донбассе очень многие искренне поверили, что "ДНР" – панацея от всех бед. quote:This will sound cruel, but if people were taking this sort of poverty in silence, it means that is their price. You need to hustle and work, instead of waiting for a "master" to come and tell you - "I'll give you a job, a car and a flat". And a lot of people in Donbass sincerely believed that DNR will be a solution for their troubles.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:52
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Entropia posted:loving yes! A trade war! Man, this'll be good. Lasting enmity towards Russia in Europe is also the best thing that could possibly happen to the EU. We need an enemy to unite against. A federal United States of Europe would be the biggest superpower in the world, and also my wet dream. So please Russia, keep it up  The most powerful man on the planet, leader of the free world, Herman Achille Van Rompuy 
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Aug 7, 2014 18:54
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Tonton Macoute posted:My Russian isn't great, just about good enough to read without a dictionary, but as I understand it, it is the point that the soldier makes to explain why the local population supported the separatists. Edit: 3peat posted:A federal United States of Europe would be the biggest superpower in the world, and also my wet dream. So please Russia, keep it up
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Aug 7, 2014 18:56
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Doesn't mean that they all have computers or if they know how to use them beyond letting their kids play pirated video games on them. Computers are a luxury over there, not a necessity.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:59
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kalstrams posted:I am sorry, but please go away if that involves American healthcare in Europe. Present posted:Doesn't mean that they all have computers or if they know how to use them beyond letting their kids play pirated video games on them. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 18:59
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Discendo Vox posted:I support the US/EU sanctions, but remember that almost all Russians are subject to a level of state propaganda saturation we would have trouble comprehending. The idea that the regime is lying probably never occurs to a great majority of Russians- in some respects they aren't responsible for their political beliefs, because their political beliefs are not their own. Are you seriously arguing that the people who coined the phrase "v Pravde net izvestiy, v Izvestiyakh net pravdy" don't know the regime is full of poo poo and always has been?
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Aug 7, 2014 19:01
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A Buttery Pastry posted:And by a bit better off you mean the Ukrainian provinces east of Dnipropetrovsk are about twice as wealthy as the provinces west of Kyiv. Luhansk Oblast per capita GDP $3157 (2011) Ukraine per capita GDP $3588 (2011) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita Donetsk a bit higher, but that doesn't say anything about the state of infrastructure, or the amount of undisclosed/black market economic activity. Or how much of that "per capita" is going straight into the pockets of the various levels of oligarchs.
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Aug 7, 2014 19:04
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Oracle posted:Are you seriously arguing that the people who coined the phrase "v Pravde net izvestiy, v Izvestiyakh net pravdy" don't know the regime is full of poo poo and always has been? Right but every regime is full of poo poo equally all over the world so all you can do is cheer for and support your full of poo poo regime over enemy full of poo poo regimes lest their poo poo win out over your poo poo.
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Aug 7, 2014 19:04
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A Buttery Pastry posted:3peat just want the USE to be as generous to its poorer states as the USA is to its. Only if it also comes with the same amount of political power the representatives of those states have.
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Aug 7, 2014 19:14
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mobby_6kl posted:^^^  A Buttery Pastry posted:3peat just want the USE to be as generous to its poorer states as the USA is to its. Actually, after living all my life in an irrelevant worthless country, I wanna see how it's like to be part of a superpower that makes the rest of the world tremble with fear. Then we just need to clean up a bit and bring in the Levant, North Africa and Asia Minor, move the capital in Lazio, and then the EU can finally become what it was destined to be Oh yea, I also wouldn't mind having that french minimum wage, french healthcare, etc
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Aug 7, 2014 19:15
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Yeah the idea that the average Russian doesn't get propaganda is nonsense. Now, whether they care is another story.
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Aug 7, 2014 19:16
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archaeo posted:Luhansk Oblast per capita GDP $3157 (2011) archaeo posted:Donetsk a bit higher, but that doesn't say anything about the state of infrastructure, or the amount of undisclosed/black market economic activity. Or how much of that "per capita" is going straight into the pockets of the various levels of oligarchs. 3peat posted:Actually, after living all my life in an irrelevant worthless country, I wanna see how it's like to be part of a superpower that makes the rest of the world tremble with fear. Then we just need to clean up a bit and bring in the Levant, North Africa and Asia Minor, move the capital in Lazio, and then the EU can finally become what it was destined to be
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Aug 7, 2014 19:22
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Present posted:But that's the thing. The average Russian doesn't have internet or alternative news sources. He lives in a tiny village or town in the middle of nowhere and gets all his news from Russian TV, newspapers and radio, which are all state controlled. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users Russia is way behind Western European countries, but what you describe is nothing but a quite hurtful stereotype, to be frank. While it's true that most Russians don't speak English well enough to read news, many relevant articles are fully accessible in Russian (see sites like http://inosmi.ru). Plus, while Echo of Moscow, TV Rain and other independent media are always under close inspection and considerable pressure, they are still present on the Internet and have their audience. And while Roskomnadzor does ban certain publications in Russian, it's nowhere near on the scale you probably imagine it to be. http://rkn.gov.ru/news/rsoc/news26141.htm Here's some official statistics regarding banned websites. They banned approximately 2.5 thousand different web pages and most of them were banned because contained child pornography or illegal information about drugs. You should also factor incompetence on their part, when they ban a page for a week only to realise that the page was actually google search results for a certain query. Basically, Internet censorship is worse than in the UK, for example, but not that much worse.
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Aug 7, 2014 19:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:3peat just want the USE to be as generous to its poorer states as the USA is to its. It should noted though that even before this crisis the Russian Internet was rather insular.
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Aug 7, 2014 19:37
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