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I agree with you Hal, tax cuts are a effective way to deal with a recession.
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Jul 19, 2015 00:26
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Deficit spending doesn't boost trade balances you say. Anything else it doesn't do? I bet it doesn't even buy me a beer. Best not risk it.
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Jul 19, 2015 00:29
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Hal_2005 posted:- Canada (1909-1934) Haha, wft? 30% unemployment is a success?
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Jul 19, 2015 00:56
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Germany spent ungodly amounts of money post-reunification. They're projected to spend something like 1 trillion euros over 30 years trying to get the east to converge with the rest of Germany. While some reforms were made under the SPD to the welfare state, it wasn't the case that they imposed massive amounts of austerity.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:09
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Panas posted:Germany spent ungodly amounts of money post-reunification. They're projected to spend something like 1 trillion euros over 30 years trying to get the east to converge with the rest of Germany. While some reforms were made under the SPD to the welfare state, it wasn't the case that they imposed massive amounts of austerity. Germany also spends a higher percentage of its budget on welfare programs than Greece.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:11
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Come on you idiots. Norway 2008.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:17
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And example where austerity didn't work, Sweden 2011
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Jul 19, 2015 01:18
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What do I gotta do to bring back the confidence fairy
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Jul 19, 2015 01:23
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Hal is just going to dispute the definition of recovery or growth until the sun sets. The government increasing spending invigorates the private sector, since they are the largest proportion of purchases by GDP in a lot of countries. Economies grow by exploiting new markets or making greater efficiencies in existing ones. Off the top of my head, the American experiment in deficit spending has been going on since Roosevelt. However, smaller governments at the state and provincial level have increased infrastructure through spending since Athens bought a navy.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:34
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I'm not sure I follow how austerity was involved in the recovery for Iceland.
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Jul 19, 2015 02:24
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Brannock posted:I'm not sure I follow how austerity was involved in the recovery for Iceland. Iceland did have other factors but other things mattered much more: -Iceland got a big IMF bailout and hit up other countries up like the UK for big multi-billion dollar emergency packages -Not being stuck with the Euro allowed some monetary side alleviation for the crash -Iceland hosed foreign depositors who stashed their money away in icelandic banks -Iceland locked down the country via capital controls
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Jul 19, 2015 02:34
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Are we still talking about weddings? My wedding was approximately $40,000. It was ridiculous but it's tradition (I'm Italian) and it didn't really cost me much since the cash gifts covered most of it. Plus, there's the added logic that my parents have been going to weddings and giving hefty cash gifts for eons and they want to see that gift returned. Yes, it's all ridiculous but I guess it keeps DJ's employed.
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Jul 19, 2015 02:40
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Hal_2005 posted:Still waiting on the Keynsian side to trot out a country. Ill check in, in a few hours. Come up with something to impress me. I can't believe I'm about to argue a moron, but... Literally every country ever. How's that? Without government spending on things like railroads, airports, seaports and highways....hell, every piece of infrastructure that your kind takes for granted and doesn't want to pay a cent more to improve or even maintain, we would never have experienced the sustained economic growth that Western society has enjoyed on average for the last eighty or so years. Beyond that, all of the technology that we've built our modern society upon will trace back, one way or another, to some government spending money to develop it. Do you think private industry would have funded the development of the jet engine? The artificial satellite? The internet? Maybe they would have, but there certainly would not have been the same imperative as there was in any of those projects to get it done no matter the cost. What about all the factories that were built in World War II to build munitions...many of them as we know were repurposed afterwards to build consumer goods. Where did the money that these companies used to build them come from? It certainly wasn't all from private industry, that's for sure. My point is this; to claim that government spending has nothing to do with prosperity ignores the fact that literally every penny of GDP this country has ever earned, and likely ever will earn, was made possible because of government spending at one time or another. In the words of Barack Obama, "you didn't build that."
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Jul 19, 2015 03:50
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EngineerJoe posted:Are we still talking about weddings? Sorry no., Hal disproved Keynesian theory a few posts ago with the observation that it didn't fix something that no one ever thought it fixed. He also noted that it had never been successfully implemented even one time. This is now a celebration of his impending Nobel prize
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Jul 19, 2015 03:52
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ocrumsprug posted:Sorry no., Hal disproved Keynesian theory a few posts ago with the observation that it didn't fix something that no one ever thought it fixed. He also noted that it had never been successfully implemented even one time. It's a possibility, even Obama has one.
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Jul 19, 2015 05:04
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I eagerly await Canada's successful implementation of the Baltic model of austerity. We just need to convince the Eurozone to provide 30-40% of our GNI, and for unemployment rates to remain steadily low thanks to 1-2% of the population migrating every year. Then if we're lucky, incomes and prosperity will return to 2008 levels after a mere 8-10 years.
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Jul 19, 2015 05:23
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eXXon posted:I eagerly await Canada's successful implementation of the Baltic model of austerity. We just need to convince the Eurozone to provide 30-40% of our GNI, and for unemployment rates to remain steadily low thanks to 1-2% of the population migrating every year. Then if we're lucky, incomes and prosperity will return to 2008 levels after a mere 8-10 years. Well the Harper response will be curing the economy by doing tax cuts and austerity. I'm sure it will work out well. Also going to be a laugh seeing how Canada will go into a recession/contraction with really high debt loading for the average citizen. This recipe was wonderful during the 2009 global crash.
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Jul 19, 2015 05:48
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ocrumsprug posted:Sorry no., Hal disproved Keynesian theory a few posts ago with the observation that it didn't fix something that no one ever thought it fixed. He also noted that it had never been successfully implemented even one time. Sounds about par for the course for the "nobel" economics prize.
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Jul 19, 2015 06:34
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Hal_2005 posted:Please cite one successful case where deficit spending led to sustained economic growth. Spending just for the sake of spending, via the infrastructure agencies does little to actually stimulate a positive balance of trade and only ends up skewing employment to your local (best) pork jurisdictions. If a federal program were indeed a success then we would see not only Japanese and Greek programs cited as methods of permanant economic expansion but would read nothing but how the Vancouver Games created a 10 years of wealth creation. So be careful on what you cite in response. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 19, 2015 08:57
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quote:
loving lol if that happens Imagine Mr 40k glass railings variable rate mortgage going up 250%.
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Jul 19, 2015 14:33
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Hal_2005 posted:- Ireland (2008-2014) I live in one of the Baltic states so here my brief observations on the miracle of austerity: we're hosed. Yes, we didn't go bankrupt, and Estonia didn't even need a bailout from IMF. The budgets are more or less balanced. But forget us ever reaching the living standards of Western Europe. There has been a huge drain of working age people leaving the Baltic countries, never to return. Every 1000 people who leave is a disaster for a small country whose whole population is just a few million people. Estonia has a sustained economic growth of 1-2%, Latvia and Lithuania probably around 3-4% (*for now*). My own income levels haven't reached the same as in 2007-2008 for example. Do you know who Mark Blyth is? I think you should listen to this lecture by someone who actually has all the facts and statistics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQuHSQXxsjM TLDR; Austerity has never worked, austerity will never work. Austerity is question of morale and ethics ("you shouldn't spend more than you earn"), not a question economics. EngineerJoe posted:Are we still talking about weddings? My wedding was approximately $40,000. It was ridiculous but it's tradition (I'm Italian) and it didn't really cost me much since the cash gifts covered most of it. Plus, there's the added logic that my parents have been going to weddings and giving hefty cash gifts for eons and they want to see that gift returned. Yes, it's all ridiculous but I guess it keeps DJ's employed. Why the gently caress are there DJs at your weddings? Are you teenagers, or are you getting married in a loving nightclub? If we had 40k to spend on a wedding, we would have a medieval themed wedding. Everyone who shows up without a wolf's skin around their shoulders and a without a sword on their belt gets sent home. eXXon posted:I eagerly await Canada's successful implementation of the Baltic model of austerity. We just need to convince the Eurozone to provide 30-40% of our GNI, and for unemployment rates to remain steadily low thanks to 1-2% of the population migrating every year. Then if we're lucky, incomes and prosperity will return to 2008 levels after a mere 8-10 years. What we endured in the Baltics was only possible because of our cultural background and history. We are a people who are used to suffering and it wasn't actually a big deal compared to some of the tougher period in Soviet times. This kind of austerity wouldn't go down very well in a country such as Canada.
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Jul 19, 2015 15:45
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Cultural Imperial posted:loving lol if that happens I think negative rates are more likely given the desperation to keep the debt loaded economy floating.
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Jul 19, 2015 16:09
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etalian posted:I think negative rates are more likely given the desperation to keep the debt loaded economy floating. It's pretty much guaranteed seeing as how that is what most nations with a housing bubble and inflation problem have already done.
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Jul 19, 2015 16:13
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quote:In the red-hot Toronto and Vancouver markets where single detached homes now easily fetch more than $1 million, Fitch said prices are less likely to fall because they are supported by strong economic and population growth. http://business.financialpost.com/p...ding-fitch-says I hope u guys are right about this. Just like you were about CDOs.  quote:“Expect a soft landing nationally, where the price growth that has characterized the country’s housing markets for more than a decade will abate, with modest declines to follow,” the company said, adding it expects “modest price declines in the medium term across the country, significant downturns remain unlikely. But, downside risks exist, particularly in markets that have been dependent on robust construction and real estate activity in recent years.” lol
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Jul 19, 2015 16:23
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http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/bank-of-canadas-interest-rate-cut-a-mistake-by-every-measure-says-kevin-olearyquote:The lower value of the loonie against the U.S. dollar will hurt productivity since Canadian companies will face higher costs, O’Leary said. quote:“We have more systemic problems in our Canadian economy that aren’t going to be affected by a marginal tax reduction,” he said. “There is more damage done by this rate decline than there is good.” quote:“We have more systemic problems in our Canadian economy that aren’t going to be affected by a marginal tax reduction,” he said. “There is more damage done by this rate decline than there is good.” quote:“We have more systemic problems in our Canadian economy that aren’t going to be affected by a marginal tax reduction,” he said. “There is more damage done by this rate decline than there is good.” quote:“We have more systemic problems in our Canadian economy that aren’t going to be affected by a marginal tax reduction,” he said. “There is more damage done by this rate decline than there is good.” -Kevin O'Leary
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Jul 19, 2015 16:28
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http://www.vancouverobserver.com/news/housing-crisis-one-typical-familys-search-place-call-homequote:
"crisis" 
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Jul 19, 2015 16:36
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Renting right now, especially in stupid markets like Vancouver and Toronto, is the most miserable experience unless you really luck out and find a good landlord.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:04
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quote:“Expect a soft landing nationally, where the price growth that has characterized the country’s housing markets for more than a decade will abate, with modest declines to follow,” the company said, adding it expects “modest price declines in the medium term across the country, significant downturns remain unlikely. But, downside risks exist, particularly in markets that have been dependent on robust construction and real estate activity in recent years.”
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Jul 19, 2015 17:09
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I'm moving from my 1 br to a 2 br. My rent is going from 1600 to 2200/month. The reason I'm telling you all this is because I googled my new landlord and he's some kind of reform party, cpc apparatchik/aide. He's got message board comments going back to the early 2000s. He's moving his family to Ottawa.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:09
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Cultural Imperial posted:http://business.financialpost.com/p...ding-fitch-says  SOFT LANDING MENTIONED Expect immediate financial armageddon.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:10
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Cultural Imperial posted:http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/bank-of-canadas-interest-rate-cut-a-mistake-by-every-measure-says-kevin-oleary Man I don't know if I really like this new season of Lang and O'Leary where they switch which one of them is the shithead.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:21
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OhYeah posted:
Unfortunately Canada has been in imminent soft landing territory for the entirety of this thread. Since inflation is so low it is a foolish belief anyways.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:28
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Cultural Imperial posted:http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/bank-of-canadas-interest-rate-cut-a-mistake-by-every-measure-says-kevin-oleary Things like a tax cut can't make up for the big problems such as explosive housing cost growth, capital expenditures cuts and wage stagnation.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:35
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etalian posted:Things like a tax cut can't make up for the big problems such as explosive housing cost growth, capital expenditures cuts and wage stagnation. That's what O'Leary is saying, that tax cuts won't fix this and the interest rate lowering was a stupid thing to do.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:38
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Cultural Imperial posted:I'm moving from my 1 br to a 2 br. My rent is going from 1600 to 2200/month. The reason I'm telling you all this is because I googled my new landlord and he's some kind of reform party, cpc apparatchik/aide. He's got message board comments going back to the early 2000s. He's moving his family to Ottawa. CI, your rent, WOOF!
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Jul 19, 2015 18:03
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HookShot posted:That's what O'Leary is saying, that tax cuts won't fix this and the interest rate lowering was a stupid thing to do. Well the Harper government is trying to sell tax cuts as a solution and also saying outright they will obsessively maintain a balanced budget even in a contraction/recession cycle.
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Jul 19, 2015 18:11
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Got my CPC bribe in my account today, a day early according to Poilievre's countdown. They want me to buy poo poo to stimulate the economy but I think I'd rather donate it to another party. gently caress that guy and gently caress the CPC.
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Jul 20, 2015 00:16
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Cultural Imperial posted:I'm moving from my 1 br to a 2 br. My rent is going from 1600 to 2200/month. The reason I'm telling you all this is because I googled my new landlord and he's some kind of reform party, cpc apparatchik/aide. He's got message board comments going back to the early 2000s. He's moving his family to Ottawa. So your going to get ready to move in October when the CPC get defeated right.
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Jul 20, 2015 01:48
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sbaldrick posted:So your going to get ready to move in October when the CPC get defeated right. lol BC tenancy laws bro.
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Jul 20, 2015 02:02
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brucio posted:Got my CPC bribe in my account today, a day early according to Poilievre's countdown. You should start a trend on twitter thanking PP for giving you money to donate to another party.
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Jul 20, 2015 14:00
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