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pissdude posted:I'm not sure I understand your argument here - is your complaint that you don't feel like you should lose half your health from a hit that turns into a combo? I'm bad at explaining my point, but basically, the thing that makes bad players like myself annoyed is the size of punishment for a mistake, and it has nothing to do with it being a single hit or a combo. I fully understand that you just have to get better, read the tells and whatever to avoid it, and failure to read and avoid puts you at a massive disadvantage. I'm actually OK with that, but it is a thing that can work to keep people from getting into it, since it is a very large disadvantage. I'm not trying to say it shouldn't happen, or its not a valid idea, just that it can be a very large hurdle for bad players to jump over. Does that get my point across any better? CharlieFoxtrot posted:Did you find Guilty Gear's tutorials helpful Yes, I did. didn't go through all 100 or whatever of them, but I did a bunch of them, and I did a bunch of the "heres how you do a move/play this character". And they did a whole lot more to teach me what to do than removing the inputs ever could. Sudsygoat fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 18:57
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I think I understand what you're getting at, you're saying losing a massive chunk of health is the REAL issue when people complain about "combos" and FS just makes regular hits do massive damage, so nothing changes, right? I just dunno if I agree, people are kinda fixated in NOT doing massive damage because they don't know the finger-puzzles, and if you can get that damage by just pressing one button...Yeah, sure, people will bitch about eating that 50% combo anyway, but that's an unsolvable problem - if you reduce damage values, you get hosed up pacing and a game that favors turtling, which newbies hate even more than BIG COMBO.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:01
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Sorbocules posted:do goofy stuff like place the opponent on a very large cake, I'm the one poking your bottom. 
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Jul 30, 2017 19:06
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quote:He also tries to mitigate it by separating character into "zoner", "rushdown", "grappler", and a 4th that I don't recall off hand. This doesn't help, because I only know what a zoner is because I read this threads OP and developed some concept of zoning. Grappler is sort of obvious, clearly a guy built on getting in and doing throws and short range stuff. Rushdown is much more ambiguous. If I didn't know what a grappler was, I would think a rushdown character was one who specializes in closing the distance and smashing people in melee. But melee is the grappler's niche, so rushdown might still be about closing the distance, but that's where I get lost, because grapplers would still need to close that distance, and have moves to do so. i'm not being condescending here I'm genuinely curious: when you don't know what a word means in general, like in your day to day life, when you're just living and poo poo and not playing fantasy strike, what do you do?
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Jul 30, 2017 19:08
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Whats out there on PC for me to get into? I'm a longtime MK vet but the playerbase just ain't there, besides I never really liked MKX.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:09
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codo27 posted:Whats out there on PC for me to get into? I'm a longtime MK vet but the playerbase just ain't there, besides I never really liked MKX. Basically everything under the sun nowadays other than Injustice 2.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:11
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brian posted:yeah but this isn't whatever the gently caress made up world you live in, it's the real one Why is the idea of a console port some insane impossibility.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:15
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In Training posted:Why is the idea of a console port some insane impossibility. It says "full release on Steam and PS4" on the Fig page so I can only assume 3S corrodes people's brains, please pray for brian.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:18
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In Training posted:Why is the idea of a console port some insane impossibility. It's not but it's also not something that you can do in 20 minutes with a random unfinished unity game and you're being intentionally facetious. Given the game hasn't got enough money from its kickstarter thing to finish being made it's all loving irrelevant as my initial point said
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Jul 30, 2017 19:19
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Have you seen the poo poo on the PSN store lately.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:21
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Zand posted:i'm not being condescending here I'm genuinely curious: when you don't know what a word means in general, like in your day to day life, when you're just living and poo poo and not playing fantasy strike, what do you do? I do generally look it up if I can't consider a reasonable definition from context. But the important thing is- how often do you look up or feel the need to look up things to start playing a game? If you want to say "my game is a gateway" what knowledge do you assume the player base has? I may have phrased my giant post poorly, but most of my complaints were more attempting to call out his "gateway to fighting games" stuff bullshit. Basically, if you want to call yourself a gateway, you can't just use the term without explanation, and expect the new people to look it up, because thats not what a gateway is for. I know there's a big dictionary of fighting game lingo that I haven't read, but if you want to claim to be the bridge for new players to cross, you have to take into consideration that the new people haven't read that dictionary, and most people aren't going to buy a game and see character creation info and say "I'm going to google this". Most people, myself included, decide to do a thing, to make sense of it later with context that comes from gameplay.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:26
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I mean, it's probably not getting funded barring a miracle, but if it ever does it says right there it's gonna be on PS4.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:26
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In Training posted:Have you seen the poo poo on the PSN store lately. Is this like you and the differences between question marks and periods because they are different things you know
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Jul 30, 2017 19:26
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Mostly I am annoyed that my FPS drops from 60+ to 10 whenever I try playing FS online
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Jul 30, 2017 19:27
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Sorbocules posted:these would do goofy stuff like place the opponent on a very large cake, or be a flashy slash in front of a very tiny moon with japanese characters all over the place, which were just fun to watch. I think I can tell what drew you to those characters... 👀
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Jul 30, 2017 19:41
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Sorbocules posted:I do generally look it up if I can't consider a reasonable definition from context. But the important thing is- how often do you look up or feel the need to look up things to start playing a game? If you want to say "my game is a gateway" what knowledge do you assume the player base has? I may have phrased my giant post poorly, but most of my complaints were more attempting to call out his "gateway to fighting games" stuff bullshit. Basically, if you want to call yourself a gateway, you can't just use the term without explanation, and expect the new people to look it up, because thats not what a gateway is for. I know there's a big dictionary of fighting game lingo that I haven't read, but if you want to claim to be the bridge for new players to cross, you have to take into consideration that the new people haven't read that dictionary, and most people aren't going to buy a game and see character creation info and say "I'm going to google this". Most people, myself included, decide to do a thing, to make sense of it later with context that comes from gameplay. they refer to a dictionary when they find one they don't know. why shouldn't he expect people to look up a word they don't know? thats absurd. this game already holds your hand so much, asking for more is ridiculous if lack of knowledge of a single word with a 3 second solution via google is a barrier to entry for new players, those players honestly don't deserve being catered to sirlin really did it, he made a game where he actually gave people the benefit of the doubt with all the poo poo people say about why fgs are too hard
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Jul 30, 2017 19:41
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The imputs scub rear end noobs have trouble with are dp and half circle plus something
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Jul 30, 2017 19:42
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:The imputs scub rear end noobs have trouble with are dp and half circle plus something dp is just wiggling your thumb in the corner of a pad in any modern fg half circle is running your thumb from one side to the other and pressing a single button. if you can swipe on your phone you can do it
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Jul 30, 2017 19:43
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Zand posted:most people don't read from a dictionary before they learn words Hold the gently caress on, if a dude is using pre-established terms without bothering to explain that in-game, he's basically doing the opposite of "being accessible". Games like Hearthstone have keywords like Taunt and Deathrattle, but you can always mouseover to see what the gently caress those actually mean. Considering Sirlin is trying to make a game anyone can pick and play, that's a valid criticism, because you're probably not telling your group of friends "hold on, I need to google what a grappler/reversal is RIGHT NOW".
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Jul 30, 2017 19:45
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Zand posted:dp is just wiggling your thumb in the corner of a pad in any modern fg I don't mean a half circle and a button. I mean like the super imputs for gg. Half circle back forward With command lists giving a z arrow instead of 326 I think people can pick up dp easier these days.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:49
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I don't mean a half circle and a button. I mean like the super imputs for gg. Half circle back forward I legit only "got" how a DP was supposed to work the first time I saw a movelist depict it as a Z motion. As a kid, I only saw DPs written out as f,d,d/f and it didn't make any sense to my stupid mind - am I supposed to tap those two this seems very hard on a controller! Then I saw it written out as a Z and went "oooooooooh you just do a Z".
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Jul 30, 2017 19:53
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Dias posted:Hold the gently caress on, if a dude is using pre-established terms without bothering to explain that in-game, he's basically doing the opposite of "being accessible". Games like Hearthstone have keywords like Taunt and Deathrattle, but you can always mouseover to see what the gently caress those actually mean. Considering Sirlin is trying to make a game anyone can pick and play, that's a valid criticism, because you're probably not telling your group of friends "hold on, I need to google what a grappler/reversal is RIGHT NOW".
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Jul 30, 2017 20:11
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Zand posted:the key difference here being that "taunt" and "deathrattle" represent game mechanics and "rushdown" and "zoner" do not But "reversal" and "cross-up" are, and defining a character as a "grappler" or a "rushdown" type doesn't really tell a new player much about what that character actually does. Grappler is a weird distinction that only makes sense to FG players too, really, considering the closest grapplers get to actual grappling are Tekken multi-throws. It's a hard problem to solve in a real-time high-paced game and I think the most elegant solution is making people read up on it too, but it is a valid criticism for a game selling itself on being pick-up-and-play. At least make a tutorial readily available to explain that poo poo and try to avoid weird and obscure naming conventions - just call the throw counter a throw counter, Sirlin, FFS.
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Jul 30, 2017 20:23
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mysterious loyall X posted:even with the cheap finger puzzles removed there's still nothing i could do... this world, is a corrupt world.
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Jul 30, 2017 20:25
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It's me, I'm the guy who would enjoy a game without dashes-- if the walkspeed were ST fast or faster. I think dashes are a terrible design hurdle and most games that come out are worse for their existence. SFV completely fucks up its dashes (I remember the original exhibition where Daigo had to dash 6 times to get across the screen after a knockdown, that's absurd) but I bet if dashes weren't the expected way for players to move around then walking would be made to feel good again. Even GG feels like walking is an afterthought and you're expected to do an (easy, but still failable) execution check every time you want to move. That stated, in most games, failing the execution check for a dash just makes you move slower. It's not a horrible problem until the game starts giving you standing normals for trying to input PP dashes. Broken Loose fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 20:28
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that if a game is going to have characters separated into zoner, rushdown, or grappler on the character select screen they should go one step further and actually define what those terms mean.
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Jul 30, 2017 20:30
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Dias posted:But "reversal" and "cross-up" are, and defining a character as a "grappler" or a "rushdown" type doesn't really tell a new player much about what that character actually does. Grappler is a weird distinction that only makes sense to FG players too, really, considering the closest grapplers get to actual grappling are Tekken multi-throws. It's a hard problem to solve in a real-time high-paced game and I think the most elegant solution is making people read up on it too, but it is a valid criticism for a game selling itself on being pick-up-and-play. At least make a tutorial readily available to explain that poo poo and try to avoid weird and obscure naming conventions - just call the throw counter a throw counter, Sirlin, FFS. its an alpha and those definitions will cost you half a million dollars
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Jul 30, 2017 20:34
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Broken Loose posted:It's me, I'm the guy who would enjoy a game without dashes-- if the walkspeed were ST fast or faster. It's funny because the first thing I tried to do when I started playing FS was to dash forward - the game felt too slow to NOT have a dash. Zand posted:its an alpha and those definitions will cost you half a million dollars The alpha thing is fair, but I mean, why call throw counters Yomi Counters if you're focusing on making it easily understandable? I know it's flair, but anyone playing for the first time is gonna be like "what the gently caress did just happen". also they should rename definitions by what scrubs actually call those characters: spammers, won't ever stop jumping and does way too much damage
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Jul 30, 2017 20:43
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Who is the "cheapest" fighting game character archetype?
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Jul 30, 2017 21:02
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Whichever one I happen to be losing to at the time.
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Jul 30, 2017 21:04
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After many million hours of MK2 I dont really think any character is cheap, but in that game you do have people that pick Jax or Mileena and spam either the ground pound or the air sais and think they are profesh, when its just cheap garbage. Aside from those two exploits I dont feel any character is really "cheap".
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Jul 30, 2017 21:10
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Reiley posted:Who is the "cheapest" fighting game character archetype? Vortex characters offer probably the greatest potential for a mediocre player to beat a good one, which if "cheapness" is a real thing at all is the only definition that makes sense, so let's go with that. I should know because that's basically all I play. 
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Jul 30, 2017 21:15
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Reiley posted:Who is the "cheapest" fighting game character archetype? Fireball spamming bullshit assholes
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Jul 30, 2017 21:16
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Reiley posted:Who is the "cheapest" fighting game character archetype? I don't think there's a "cheap"archetype moreso than there's an extremely annoying archetype, and it's different for everybody. Some people think rush down is cheap, some people think zoners are cheap, I know when I first started playing fighting games I thought grapplers were cheap because I didn't realize it's straight up mind games and mixups with them. To each their own, though
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Jul 30, 2017 21:19
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- Characters with too many guessies - easy thinky mixups - Heroes with little to no landing lag
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Jul 30, 2017 21:20
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Boss characters
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Jul 30, 2017 21:27
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Reiley posted:Who is the "cheapest" fighting game character archetype? 
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Jul 30, 2017 21:45
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Reiley posted:Who is the "cheapest" fighting game character archetype? that one weird character that requires really specific knowledge to defend against their bullshit
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Jul 30, 2017 22:03
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HMS Beagle posted:I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that if a game is going to have characters separated into zoner, rushdown, or grappler on the character select screen they should go one step further and actually define what those terms mean. I don't disagree that things could be explained a bit better, but there is a point where you have to expect a player to learn some stuff without being hand-held. Explaining what a grappler or zoner is in principle is nice, but until you actually play the drat game you won't get a feel for what they really mean anyway, especially with the differences that can exist in archetypes. I agree whole-heartedly that games could explain terms better, and Tekken 7 was a good example of this for me recently (with acronyms in combo lists being really hard to parse and google didn't offer immediate answers either), but I still played on and figured it out eventually. My point being, if you're the type of player who is going to stop playing a game because you don't know what zoner means and you want to play the character but won't look into things yourself, you aren't going to put effort in to actually play the game beyond starting it once and getting annoyed that you aren't an expert right away. Fighting games just aren't for you if you aren't willing to put in some effort, and I say this after disagreeing with most (but definitely not all) of the elitist poo poo that Zand says in this thread on a weekly basis. I am a filthy 09'er though.
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Jul 30, 2017 22:15
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I'm not elitist I just don't see the point in lying to new players about the effort they have to put into the games. fgs aren't for people that have no drive to get better and aren't willing to do thought for themselves. those people can surely do something more fun for them
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Jul 30, 2017 22:45
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