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Deified Data posted:So I'm trying to summon Futsunushi so I can summon Yoshitsune and then Chi You, but for the life of me I can't make anything work to summon Futsunushi. I've referenced the combo list and tried several options and they're all either impossible or produce something else. I'm on 12/24. What's going on here? Gen. Ripper posted:Are you using Treasure Demons? Those can be finicky because the result changes depending on the other Persona's level. I'm guessing it's this, since I ran into it myself yesterday. Find a recipe in the calculator that does NOT use a Treasure Demon and it should work fine. I didn't know about the weird way Treasure Demon fusions worked until yesterday and I still don't really grasp it. But filling in gaps for early Personas has been annoying because some early ones used for fusion are now leveled all out of whack.
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May 14, 2020 13:01
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HaB posted:I'm guessing it's this, since I ran into it myself yesterday. Find a recipe in the calculator that does NOT use a Treasure Demon and it should work fine. I didn't know about the weird way Treasure Demon fusions worked until yesterday and I still don't really grasp it. But filling in gaps for early Personas has been annoying because some early ones used for fusion are now leveled all out of whack. If the persona you're fusing the treasure demon with is higher than the level in the calculator, use the next treasure demon up. At least that's always worked for me.
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May 14, 2020 13:22
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also, I'm not sure it applies to Futsunushi in particular since he's a slink 10 reward, but a lot of other various personas that would be rational fusions at that level don't unlock until after you're done with the 12/24 dungeon and have moved into the third semester and seen them pop up as new content, and then it suddenly lets you make a bunch of new poo poo
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May 14, 2020 13:29
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Sydin posted:The manga does make a solid point that giving Yusuke more money wouldn't help anything because he'd just blow it all on art stuff and still end up poor and starving. I like the codification of Makoto as the Phantom Thieves' sergeant. Sure, Joker's the leader but Makoto's the one who makes sure it happens.
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May 14, 2020 13:48
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Zvahl posted:also, I'm not sure it applies to Futsunushi in particular since he's a slink 10 reward, but a lot of other various personas that would be rational fusions at that level don't unlock until after you're done with the 12/24 dungeon and have moved into the third semester and seen them pop up as new content, and then it suddenly lets you make a bunch of new poo poo Nah, you can make Futsunushi before the new stuff. I made him and Lucifer on 12/24 and basically steamrolled Yaldy.
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May 14, 2020 13:52
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So the Persona 5 manga is better than the animation then and worth reading?
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May 14, 2020 14:04
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ChaosArgate posted:Nah, you can make Futsunushi before the new stuff. I made him and Lucifer on 12/24 and basically steamrolled Yaldy. yeah I remembered him being in vanilla p5 but wasn't 100% sure and thought he might function like Macabre/Loa/et al, and I didn't bother making him this goround until I needed Yoshitsune in Jan
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May 14, 2020 15:09
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Pesmerga posted:So the Persona 5 manga is better than the animation then and worth reading? I haven't read the one that's a straight adaptation of the game, the one the name "Akira Kurusu" comes from, but it wouldn't take much to be better than P5A from what I've heard of it. The manga that one chapter about the whole team managing their own cuts of Metaverse cash is from an anthology of fan comics, more or less.
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May 14, 2020 15:15
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Zvahl posted:also, I'm not sure it applies to Futsunushi in particular since he's a slink 10 reward, but a lot of other various personas that would be rational fusions at that level don't unlock until after you're done with the 12/24 dungeon and have moved into the third semester and seen them pop up as new content, and then it suddenly lets you make a bunch of new poo poo It's only stuff that's actually in that bonus dungeon that is locked off for fusion. Not even all of the stuff in that dungeon, just a lot of it. Anyway, I had a fun surprise in the new final Mementos zone, level 99 party and I see blue shadows, curious I investigate it's either Yaksini Dakini Kali with weird resistances (including repelling gun) who have a bunch of buffs and charge leading into a huge physical move, or a Jack Frost and Pyro-Jack who absorb their opposite element (Fire and Ice respectively) and can cast the max level group Fire and Ice spells all five of them irritable.
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May 14, 2020 15:19
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Dawgstar posted:I like the codification of Makoto as the Phantom Thieves' sergeant. Sure, Joker's the leader but Makoto's the one who makes sure it happens. Too bad that Joker being a silent protagonist means she basically takes over after she joins. But since it was essentially Morgana running the show before, it’s still an improvement. ChaosArgate posted:I haven't read the one that's a straight adaptation of the game, the one the name "Akira Kurusu" comes from, but it wouldn't take much to be better than P5A from what I've heard of it. The manga that one chapter about the whole team managing their own cuts of Metaverse cash is from an anthology of fan comics, more or less. The little I’ve seen of it is better than the anime, but that’s a very low bar.
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May 14, 2020 15:59
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Finally done. I have a lot of thoughts, but the most important thing to state is that Meguro might be the best composer working in games right now.
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May 14, 2020 18:03
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Yeah the nature of Joker as a silent protagonist means somebody else has to actually lead the group in dialogue, even if the story tells you that Joker is in charge. I am finding the older I get the more annoyed I am at silent protagonists because I'm less interested in a power fantasy I can self-insert into and more interested in a cohesive narrative. That said even with the whole silent protagonist problem to work with the game does a good job of always establishing Joker as the psychological leader of the group. All the other members doubt themselves and their motivations at various points and it's always Joker who stands firm and gets people going again. As janky as they are the segments in early January where Joker has to bring all of his teammates around from their blithe acceptance of the new reality are a good example. It's why I feel like the only acceptable answer to (literally end of the game spoilers) Lavenza asking Joker if he regrets his decision to choose the original reality, knowing Akechi may die and Joker will end up in juvie is that no, you don't regret it at all. In completely unrelated news I just hit Rank 8 confidant with Akechi on my new game plus, and after having played the new semester once before I love how after you beat Akechi in your "duel" his VA starts using the same voice he uses for Akechi in January. Joker has defeated him twice in one day and while both were with Akechi using handicaps, he's so frustrated by it that his perfect mask slips for just a bit. Daymond really gave Akechi an incredible depth just via his voice work.
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May 14, 2020 18:04
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I'm really happy with how this game handled Akechi. More depth and January onwards, it's full "gently caress it, mask is off, you know I'm an evil shitlord so deal with it." also hes apparently still alive given the vision at the ending that Joker sees from the train?
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May 14, 2020 18:10
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seiferguy posted:
I missed this too, one way or another. Were he, and by extension Wakaba and Makoto's dad, actually living people? I figured they were only vaguely alive or real in the sense that that world was based off of the real world. All evidence points to them acting as glorified puppets created by the person who wanted them alive again. Wakaba was back, the dry ascerbic mom doing mom things, copdad was back and Makoto could act more like a child again like she wanted, and Akechi was a fantasy version of himself that was able to play well with others and was deeply infatuated with the person who wished him back to life, so to speak.
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May 14, 2020 18:20
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According to some very brief googling The writers have never clarified if Akechi is actually alive or not, but they did say in an interview that Maruki is lying to Joker about Akechi to try and manipulate him into accepting his reality. He just looked into Joker's memories, saw the events in Shido's palace, and used the ambiguity to his advantage in order to have a major temptation for Joker in Akechi's supposed fate. It's also ambiguous whether the Akechi you team up with in January is actually the real Akechi, or a cognition brought to life like Wakabe. His memory gap could be the result of him being a creation of Maruki after his death, could be legitimate for other reasons, or could be Akechi bullshiting and going along with Maruki because he wants to confirm the only person he comes close to respecting as an equal will stick to his guns instead of folding over sentimentality.
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May 14, 2020 18:39
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It made sense to me thay Maruki created cognitive versions of Wakaba and Makotodad that everyone could see and had them act happily as they weren't "real", but it didn't make sense that he revived Akechi who could think for himself and say that the new reality sucked. Maruki has the power to change people's cognitive views, but If he had the power of revival, Akechi would still be around after his palace was destroyed. Which I guess means that Akechi is still alive.
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May 14, 2020 19:15
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seiferguy posted:It made sense to me thay Maruki created cognitive versions of Wakaba and Makotodad that everyone could see and had them act happily as they weren't "real", but it didn't make sense that he revived Akechi who could think for himself and say that the new reality sucked. Maruki has the power to change people's cognitive views, but If he had the power of revival, Akechi would still be around after his palace was destroyed. Which I guess means that Akechi is still alive. I think it’s cause well joker remembers Akechi as a giant rear end in a top hat so he needs to be brought back as a giant rear end in a top hat or the wool would have been pulled from his eyes even faster.
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May 14, 2020 19:22
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A talking coyote posted:I think it’s cause well joker remembers Akechi as a giant rear end in a top hat so he needs to be brought back as a giant rear end in a top hat or the wool would have been pulled from his eyes even faster. even if joker did see through akechi's facade from the start (not difficult, thanks to pancakes) akechi's behavior in january isn't a natural extension of that - he's acting like he's so relieved to stop being a Pleasant Boy that he's whipsawed clean in the opposite direction. it comes off as a personality change borne of akechi's own agency and personality, not something that maruki ginned up out of joker's memories of the guy
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May 14, 2020 19:28
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I tend to lean towards "Akechi is alive and the person you interact with in January is the real deal" but the one thing that doesn't track with that is Joker ending up in jail after Maruki's reality is shattered. The only things that are undone are the things Maruki himself changed, which means Akechi taking Joker's place on Christmas Eve must be Maruki's doing. Since Akechi tells Joker what twigged him to things not being right was him being let go out of nowhere, the Akechi you interact with in January has to be the same one that showed up to take the fall for Joker. Which kinda implies he definitely is a cognition brought to life by Maruki? Unless Maruki's power works such that he just thinks "Akechi takes the fall for Joker and gets released immediately" and that becomes reality, and the details of whether that creates a fake Akechi or influences the real one aren't revealed to him? It could also just be a plothole I guess. Also dear god we need a spoiler thread.
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May 14, 2020 19:46
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Its been almost 2 months since release. Maybe it's ok to remove the spoiler embargo?
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May 14, 2020 19:48
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Oxxidation posted:even if joker did see through akechi's facade from the start (not difficult, thanks to pancakes) akechi's behavior in january isn't a natural extension of that - he's acting like he's so relieved to stop being a Pleasant Boy that he's whipsawed clean in the opposite direction. it comes off as a personality change borne of akechi's own agency and personality, not something that maruki ginned up out of joker's memories of the guy His very last memory of the guy was Akechi going turbo crazy and trying to murder joker and the rest of his friends. Granted it seemed they may have been getting through to him before his shadow showdown. Not to mention we know about all the evil poo poo he’s done up to that point as well so I think maruki would have had enough to work with that the personality change in January isn’t too far fetched.
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May 14, 2020 20:01
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A talking coyote posted:His very last memory of the guy was Akechi going turbo crazy and trying to murder joker and the rest of his friends. Granted it seemed they may have been getting through to him before his shadow showdown. Not to mention we know about all the evil poo poo he’s done up to that point as well so I think maruki would have had enough to work with that the personality change in January isn’t too far fetched. considering that the only way you can trigger the final arc is to get akechi's social link to max, it is exceedingly unlikely that joker's final impression of him was that of a venomous, raving lunatic. the fanbase's contentious views of him aside, the viewpoint of the game itself in the last semester is very clear that joker didn't hate him
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May 14, 2020 20:05
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Oxxidation posted:considering that the only way you can trigger the final arc is to get akechi's social link to max, it is exceedingly unlikely that joker's final impression of him was that of a venomous, raving lunatic. the fanbase's contentious views of him aside, the viewpoint of the game itself in the last semester is very clear that joker didn't hate him True but he also technically murdered joker once and attempted to do it again including all of his other friends. So while with the added benefit of the new social link, I agree joker doesn’t hate Akechi but I don’t think he’s dumb enough to think he’s not an incredibly dangerous person with a tendency for pure evil. Also regarding Maruki screwing up by giving new Akechi autonomy. The dude is super smart and a powerful persona user but at the end of the day he’s still just a dude running what’s basically a massive computer sim out of his own brain, there’s bound to be some hiccups.
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May 14, 2020 20:15
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A talking coyote posted:True but he also technically murdered joker once and attempted to do it again including all of his other friends. So while with the added benefit of the new social link, I agree joker doesn’t hate Akechi but I don’t think he’s dumb enough to think he’s not an incredibly dangerous person with a tendency for pure evil. It’s actually pretty explicit that those hiccups are part of why Maruki needs to be stopped, he’s not actually capable of appropriately wielding his own powers. Also, Joker’s ideal reality explicitly involves Akechi being his friend/rival. Nobody ever said it was healthy, but that’s the way it is. Personally I suspect that given we know Maruki gains control right as Yaldabaoth dies it could be that he brought back Akechi, or that Akechi survived and Joker’s wish caused Maruki to initially over-write Akechi, because I don’t think real Akechi would turn himself in that way. The being let free is so against everything Akechi understands about justice and punishment/judgement that it shatters Maruki’s world for him, whether that be because that’s what Joker thinks of Akechi, or his own legitimate personality. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:26 on May 14, 2020 |
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May 14, 2020 20:22
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the thing is, it all makes a good lot of sense if the Akechi-thing that joins in January is some form of what Joker wished. He was clearly incredibly capable, and Joker grew to know him personally and like him, and everything was left unfinished. Even the social link stops right at 8. Joker would have wanted to do what he always does, make bonds, even when that is with a dead murderer who had deeply divided feelings about Joker. And, so, he gets the True Akechi back; Loki, not Robin Hood, but willing to act like a human being, finish bonding with Joker, and get together in face of a bigger peril, even putting himself on the line, as Joker once saw him do. I don't think Maruki gave him autonomy so to speak, but I do think that he'd behave exactly like he did if he was a fantasy of Joker's, and any other reasoning for that character's actions and behavior seem to fall short one way or another.
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May 14, 2020 20:22
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I can't believe how classified this thread has become
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May 14, 2020 20:24
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i should note that i have no firm opinion on the final semester akechi being a simulacrum created by maruki, it's the "oh he acts like a crazy rear end in a top hat because joker remembers him as a crazy rear end in a top hat" that i think is pointlessly facile
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May 14, 2020 20:24
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Oxxidation posted:i should note that i have no firm opinion on the final semester akechi being a simulacrum created by maruki, it's the "oh he acts like a crazy rear end in a top hat because joker remembers him as a crazy rear end in a top hat" that i think is pointlessly facile that was part of him, but he acts a lot less deranged in January than he does at the end of December
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May 14, 2020 20:26
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Fair enough, I did oversimplify it a bit by saying that.
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May 14, 2020 20:27
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Actually, thinking about the other ending Akechi actually being a pleasant boy when you accept Maruki’s reality implies to me he’s real. Because if he’s the cognition Joker desires of Akechi he wouldn’t be so pleasant in that ending, he’d be the same rear end in a top hat just no longer fighting against Maruki’s paradise. Whereas if he’s real then Maruki has a person to perform his cognitive psience on and “cure” of his pain, which would look a lot like making him his pleasant false self permanently, instead of the crazy broken guy he really is. Basically the same thing that happens to Sumire where she is permanently Kasumi in that ending.
Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:34 on May 14, 2020 |
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May 14, 2020 20:30
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All of reality is a product of cognition. If you change cognition, you change reality. Cogito, ergo sum Therefore, Akechi is always real because he's in Joker's cognition.
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May 14, 2020 20:33
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I remember one time in the Xenoblade thread, someone asked when you got access to a certain game mechanic, and I told them "When Pneuma joins your party." They then got super mad at me for telling them the name of someone who joined your party, and were not consoled by the fact that you do not ever hear this character's name or see them or know of them before they join your party. People here are mega weird about spoilers so I can't blame people for turning their posts into redacted government documents
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May 14, 2020 20:53
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Lord_Magmar posted:Actually, thinking about the other ending Akechi actually being a pleasant boy when you accept Maruki’s reality implies to me he’s real. Because if he’s the cognition Joker desires of Akechi he wouldn’t be so pleasant in that ending, he’d be the same rear end in a top hat just no longer fighting against Maruki’s paradise. Whereas if he’s real then Maruki has a person to perform his cognitive psience on and “cure” of his pain, which would look a lot like making him his pleasant false self permanently, instead of the crazy broken guy he really is. Basically the same thing that happens to Sumire where she is permanently Kasumi in that ending. The best part of that ending is when everybody goes to take the picture, Joker and Akechi stare directly at you, the player, instead of looking in the direction the photo is being taken. A very slight but very good "what the actual gently caress, player?"
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May 14, 2020 21:00
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Lord_Magmar posted:Actually, thinking about the other ending Akechi actually being a pleasant boy when you accept Maruki’s reality implies to me he’s real. Because if he’s the cognition Joker desires of Akechi he wouldn’t be so pleasant in that ending, he’d be the same rear end in a top hat just no longer fighting against Maruki’s paradise. Whereas if he’s real then Maruki has a person to perform his cognitive psience on and “cure” of his pain, which would look a lot like making him his pleasant false self permanently, instead of the crazy broken guy he really is. Basically the same thing that happens to Sumire where she is permanently Kasumi in that ending. this is just obnoxious, because it's exactly like you said, but if that's true, then the only way to square the rest of how he behaves, especially in the ending, is just bad writing. I get that they like those big question marks in the ending, since it's implied the metaverse is still hot and kicking by him seeing himself as a phantom thief, but in the reformed world, what, did he just hide in the metaverse until the end of March? I think I'm just overthinking the strength of their authorial intent while they're interested in making cool things in their video game for children but the plot of like all of the new stuff in Royal just seemed so slapdash
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May 14, 2020 21:01
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Pretty much, but bad writing is not going to stop me from playing through this game a 5th time just so I can chuckle at joker declaring his love for older women again.
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May 14, 2020 21:06
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A talking coyote posted:Pretty much, but bad writing is not going to stop me from playing through this game a 5th time just so I can chuckle at joker declaring his love for older women again. honestly i've rarely seen a better case for overlooking bad writing in the face of astonishing presentation, it's worth replaying just to have on as background music for a whole month and to look at the menus
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May 14, 2020 21:19
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I will never understand the conflation of ambiguous writing as "bad" writing. There's plenty of bad stuff in the game, but almost none of it is related to that bit.
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May 14, 2020 21:36
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The absolute worst writing in the game - even more so than Ryuji and Morgana's dumb spat - is the scene where Akechi and Shido stand in a room together and reminisce about their backstories, how they came to know one another, and just how much they love how ~eeeeeevil~ they are in some weird and terrible combo of "as we both already know but let's state anyway" dialogue and villain rant.
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May 14, 2020 21:42
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Sydin posted:The absolute worst writing in the game - even more so than Ryuji and Morgana's dumb spat - is the scene where Akechi and Shido stand in a room together and reminisce about their backstories, how they came to know one another, and just how much they love how ~eeeeeevil~ they are in some weird and terrible combo of "as we both already know but let's state anyway" dialogue and villain rant. still a bit puzzled how that one made it into the final script. p5 is a game that loves to reiterate the obvious and even by those standards that scene was redundant
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May 14, 2020 21:57
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Zvahl posted:this is just obnoxious, because it's exactly like you said, but if that's true, then the only way to square the rest of how he behaves, especially in the ending, is just bad writing. I get that they like those big question marks in the ending, since it's implied the metaverse is still hot and kicking by him seeing himself as a phantom thief, but in the reformed world, what, did he just hide in the metaverse until the end of March? It's not clear to me why we think either version of Akechi would be more or less susceptible to Muraki's meddling? The whole point of that ending is that he's basically ascended to godhood, presumably he can do whatever he wants to cognative Akechi or real-boy Akechi?
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May 14, 2020 21:58
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