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This time, I'll show them! I'll defeat that dastardly Lucas once and for all and prove to everyone that the prequels are bad! LUUUUCAAAAAASSSS!
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:32 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:12 |
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quote:Deepity is a term employed by Daniel Dennett in his 2009 speech to the American Atheists Institution conference, coined by the teenage daughter of one of his friends. The term refers to a statement that is apparently profound but actually asserts a triviality on one level and something meaningless on another. Generally, a deepity has (at least) two meanings: one that is true but trivial, and another that sounds profound, but is essentially false or meaningless and would be "earth-shattering" if true. To the extent that it's true, it doesn't matter. To the extent that it matters, it isn't true. "George Lucas did everything in the Star Wars prequels intentionally" is a deepity. On one level, this is true. Lucas did do everything in these films intentionally, in the sense that he did not throw toy letters on the ground to name characters or pull plot points out of a bingo roller or spin a wheel to determine camera position. This is true but trivial. The other meaning of this claim, the one that sounds profound and would be earth-shattering if true, is that Lucas did everything intentionally, in the sense that it was all part of his master plan to deconstruct heroism and the presuppositions of which that we are still to this day unpacking. This would be earth-shattering if true. Because remember, it's not just everything in the films that he did intentionally. His and others' statements on the commentary tracks that do nothing to support this theory and in fact undermine it at every turn? Part of the plan. All those clips of him looking like a fat dumbass flying by the seat of his pants? Those are acting, or deceptive editing, or our mortal brains being unable to truly comprehend. So let's say that's all true. Now we run into issues of theology. He did everything intentionally. So he intended for Little Anakin to be a hated embarrassment, knowing how the audience would react, probably as some kind of metacommentary about how we hate Darth Vader or fuckin whatever. But as a result of his intentional plan to choose a bad actor and write and direct him badly on purpose, poor Jake Lloyd was bullied incessantly, which may have contributed to his problems later in life. Lloyd was probably not aware of this intentional plan, nor were his parents. Isn't it unethical to knowingly set up an innocent child to be bullied literally halfway to insanity? Or what about Ahmed Best or Hayden Christensen? Did they sign up to have their careers destroyed and be laughingstocks as a result of Lucas' devious plot to make their characters lovely on purpose? Was throwing a hissy tantrum and quitting Star Wars because people criticized him also part of the plan? Why or why not?
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:33 |
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The prequels are good. I'm sorry that you can't see it.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:35 |
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Bongo Bill posted:The prequels are good. I'm sorry that you can't see it. I disagree Goon Sire.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:36 |
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Bongo Bill posted:The prequels are good. I'm sorry that you can't see it. Apology accepted.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:37 |
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In 10 years we are going to have at least three factions of Star Wars fans. People who enjoyed/grew up with the originals and think the prequels/sequels are bad. People who enjoyed/grew up with the prequels and think the sequels are the worst. People who are growing up with the sequels and love all Star Wars. (other factions will exist that like them all, only ot/sequels, etc)
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:37 |
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So far all the Star Wars movies have ranged from good to fantastic.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:39 |
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Vegg220 posted:I disagree Goon Sire.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:40 |
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Spacebump posted:In 10 years we are going to have at least three factions of Star Wars fans. People who enjoyed/grew up with the originals and think the prequels/sequels are bad. People who enjoyed/grew up with the prequels and think the sequels are the worst. People who are growing up with the sequels and love all Star Wars. (other factions will exist that like them all, only ot/sequels, etc) I only accept KOTOR 2 and the Jar Jar episodes of The Clone Wars as quality Star Wars.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:40 |
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I like to imagine that Lucas had ambitions for 2 and 3 that were stymied by how 1 was received - and he will always hold a grudge about it. Jar-Jar was probably going to have a much larger role than the cameo arc that was in the final films. That CGI frogman was gonna have gravitas in 3 dammit!
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:44 |
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Serf posted:Sorry Tezzor, wrong again. Could you break it down for me, then? The only defenses of the prequels I've ever heard are some form of "whiz bang explosions and lightsabers" and the Ring Theory, which I didn't find very compelling.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:44 |
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Mc Do Well posted:Jar-Jar was probably going to have a much larger role than the cameo arc that was in the final films. That CGI frogman was gonna have gravitas in 3 dammit! This is undeniable. An entire character was mostly written out because fans didn't like him.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:47 |
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Spacebump posted:In 10 years we are going to have at least three factions of Star Wars fans. People who enjoyed/grew up with the originals and think the prequels/sequels are bad. People who enjoyed/grew up with the prequels and think the sequels are the worst. People who are growing up with the sequels and love all Star Wars. (other factions will exist that like them all, only ot/sequels, etc) It is true that there are a lot of people who saw the prequels as kids and like them today, but this notion that "you just like whatever you saw as a kid" is reductive crap. There are lots of people who were children when they first saw the prequels and think they are bad. I personally first saw The Phantom Menace when I was 13 years old. Outside the mono-digit age range Lucas was aiming for with the fart frog, sure, but hardly an old man, and I defended it at first too. The question isn't if you saw it as a child, the question is have your tastes improved from the time you thought Lunchables every day was rad
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:48 |
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Vegg220 posted:Contemporary reviews were better for the films than retrospectives. The general opinion had largely turned against these films each within one or two years of their release, and the excuse to see the next one was implicit in criticism of the last ("Attack of the Clones has Obi-Wan in it more and Anakin isn't a kid," "Revenge of the Sith is darker and gets rid of the childish crap," etc.) I'm normally willing to go to bat for Lucas's films, but this is not altogether true. Quite a few contemporary reviews were actually quite harsh. Washington Post posted:You will hear that this sequel to "Star Wars" is part of a vast new mythology, as if it were the Oresteia. Its originator, George Lucas, has revealed that the pictures are actually parts of a nine-part sage, as if audiences will some day receive the total the way devotees now go to Seattle for a week of immersion in Wagner's complete Ring Cycle. New York Times posted:I'm not as bothered by the film's lack of resolution as I am about my suspicion that I really don't care. After one has one's fill of the special effects and after one identifies the source of the facetious banter that passes for wit between [the male and female lead] (it's straight out of B-picture comedies of the 30's), there isn't a great deal for the eye or the mind to focus on. The Chicago Reader posted:the characters take a definite backseat to the special effects, and much of the action seems gratuitous, leading nowhere It's my hope as a fan that as time passes opinions will shift, but perhaps this is idle dreaming.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:48 |
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I have never heard a single criticism of Jake Lloyd's performance as Anakin that isn't "I didn't want to hear Darth Vader say, 'Yippee!'" His character is a sweet, good-hearted, slightly impulsive little boy with a touch of deep-seated anger over the injustice of his situation, and that's what he delivers. Lloyd is vivacious, emotive, clear, and convincing. But somehow it's just agreed that this was an embarrassing take on the character? Because Darth Vader's supposed to be a stone-cold badass? (Did anyone else notice that in the end he was just a sad old man in a suit who had lived a lifetime of regrets?)
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:50 |
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Jake Lloyds line delivery was bad. The kid couldn't emote effectively and everything he said fell flat.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:53 |
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Guy Goodbody posted:OK, I get it. The prequels are like mirrors of the originals. The originals were fun space adventures with likable characters, and the prequels were no fun and full of weirdos and assholes, and that was intentional and good. The originals were also full of wierdos and assholes. And yeah, those wierdos and assholes were entertaining as hell.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:53 |
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Zoran posted:I have never heard a single criticism of Jake Lloyd's performance as Anakin that isn't "I didn't want to hear Darth Vader say, 'Yippee!'" You haven't? Yes, the John Voight's Nutsack point is a big one. But how about that he can't act? You never heard that one? This I find very unlikely.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:54 |
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To this day, i'm still not sure why Padme died. Was it from complications due to child birth? And if so, was that due to being force choked? She just kinda.....gives up. "Giving Up" is not a cause of death i've ever heard mentioned from a coroner.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:55 |
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Yaws posted:Jake Lloyds line delivery was bad. The kid couldn't emote effectively and everything he said fell flat. Got any examples?
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:55 |
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Zoran posted:Got any examples? Sure. Watch The Phantom Menace.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:56 |
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i think a lot of people forget that leia wasn't just grieving over the death of her husband, but of her SON too
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:56 |
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Schwarzwald posted:The originals were also full of wierdos and assholes. Oh sure, the weirdos and assholes in the originals were entertaining, but they were side characters. The main characters, even the gold robot and bigfoot, were pretty normal people
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:57 |
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Vegg220 posted:"George Lucas did everything in the Star Wars prequels intentionally" is a deepity. On one level, this is true. Lucas did do everything in these films intentionally, in the sense that he did not throw toy letters on the ground to name characters or pull plot points out of a bingo roller or spin a wheel to determine camera position. This is true but trivial. The other meaning of this claim, the one that sounds profound and would be earth-shattering if true, is that Lucas did everything intentionally, in the sense that it was all part of his master plan to deconstruct heroism and the presuppositions of which that we are still to this day unpacking. This would be earth-shattering if true. Because remember, it's not just everything in the films that he did intentionally. His and others' statements on the commentary tracks that do nothing to support this theory and in fact undermine it at every turn? Part of the plan. All those clips of him looking like a fat dumbass flying by the seat of his pants? Those are acting, or deceptive editing, or our mortal brains being unable to truly comprehend. So let's say that's all true. Now we run into issues of theology. He did everything intentionally. So he intended for Little Anakin to be a hated embarrassment, knowing how the audience would react, probably as some kind of metacommentary about how we hate Darth Vader or fuckin whatever. But as a result of his intentional plan to choose a bad actor and write and direct him badly on purpose, poor Jake Lloyd was bullied incessantly, which may have contributed to his problems later in life. Lloyd was probably not aware of this intentional plan, nor were his parents. Isn't it unethical to knowingly set up an innocent child to be bullied literally halfway to insanity? Or what about Ahmed Best or Hayden Christensen? Did they sign up to have their careers destroyed and be laughingstocks as a result of Lucas' devious plot to make their characters lovely on purpose? Was throwing a hissy tantrum and quitting Star Wars because people criticized him also part of the plan? Why or why not? Schwarzwald posted:The truly baffling thing is that the person here who has come closest to saying that the prequels are "a work of secret subversive genius" is Tezzor him or her self.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 02:58 |
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Guy Goodbody posted:Could you break it down for me, then? The only defenses of the prequels I've ever heard are some form of "whiz bang explosions and lightsabers" and the Ring Theory, which I didn't find very compelling. Well, probably my favorite part of the prequels are the Jedi. We see the Jedi Order while it is still extant, and we see the Jedi at the height of their power. And the Jedi are not at all like what we were expecting. They are not noble knights defending the Republic, but instead a strange cult that indoctrinates children. They deny core aspects of personhood, act as muscle for the Republic, and show little respect for the downtrodden of the galaxy. Their depiction in the prequels further displays the ways in which Obi-Wan is a liar and a trickster, and also shows us why they were destroyed. They were betrayed, but only because they were too arrogant and misguided to see it coming. If any of them were as wise as Obi-Wan says, they would never have taken in Anakin and allowed him to become a Jedi. Showing the Jedi as the corrupt, blind cult that it was feels like a bold move to me, and a real subversion of fan expectations. I also like seeing the Republic become the Empire. They weren't invaded or conquered, no, they became the Empire through shrewd politics and manipulation by a force they were not prepared to deal with. The fact that the Empire operated for almost two decades with little interference is interesting when you see the circumstances of its creation. The people of the galaxy were played perfectly by Palpatine, and his rise to power is a joy to watch. And the changing style of the movies visually is great. Transitioning from sleek, clean art deco ships to the stark lines and harsh utilitarianism of the Empire is just so cool. Clearly it was a thing that Lucas worked backwards to arrive at, but seeing the how it coincides with the Republic turning to the Empire is really reminiscent of the rise of fascism in our own world, and the changing art styles reflect the changing landscape of the galaxy. But the time of the OT, the world is dirty, the technology is stagnant, and the soft, elegant ships of the past have been mostly replaced by the Empire's sharp-edged, grayscale warships.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:01 |
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Vegg220 posted:It is true that there are a lot of people who saw the prequels as kids and like them today, but this notion that "you just like whatever you saw as a kid" is reductive crap. There are lots of people who were children when they first saw the prequels and think they are bad. I personally first saw The Phantom Menace when I was 13 years old. Outside the mono-digit age range Lucas was aiming for with the fart frog, sure, but hardly an old man, and I defended it at first too. The question isn't if you saw it as a child, the question is have your tastes improved from the time you thought Lunchables every day was rad You seemed to have missed the last part of my post. Anyway, Nostalgia is a real thing. It's not reductive crap. Not everyone gets nostalgic over the same things.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:01 |
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Spacebump posted:In 10 years we are going to have at least three factions of Star Wars fans. People who enjoyed/grew up with the originals and think the prequels/sequels are bad. People who enjoyed/grew up with the prequels and think the sequels are the worst. People who are growing up with the sequels and love all Star Wars. (other factions will exist that like them all, only ot/sequels, etc) I'm the mutant who grew up with both but thinks the prequels sucked.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:01 |
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Gonz posted:To this day, i'm still not sure why Padme died. Was it from complications due to child birth? And if so, was that due to being force choked? She was no longer important to the story and so died immediately after spawning like some species of crab.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:02 |
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Are you dumb. Do you see Serf's post on this very page
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:03 |
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Vegg220 posted:She was no longer important to the story and so died immediately after spawning like some species of crab. This explanation is acceptable.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:04 |
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Coming to read this forum, and this thread specifically, is like going to the circus for the rest of SA. Watch the spectacle and then go back and laugh with your friends about it. You guys really think you're all arguing with the same guy on like a dozen accounts? -Tezzor
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:06 |
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Zoran posted:I have never heard a single criticism of Jake Lloyd's performance as Anakin that isn't "I didn't want to hear Darth Vader say, 'Yippee!'" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDh-ph8OaGo Some of his line deliveries are unnatural. For example, "They live on the moons of Iago, I think." That I think is a qualifier--the kid's suddenly not sure or he's shy or whatever, but Lloyd just gives it kind of a practiced precocious spin. He's just a kid reading (hard to deliver) lines. The stuff up that point isn't exactly good either. It's not terrible. But the idea is Anakin is really affected by this beautiful girl from another world, but he asks if she's an angel like he's asking if she's hungry. Isn't he a little old to actually think she's a space legend? If so, why isn't the actor signalling the subtext? Again, not terrible but not great. Now, apparently Lucas loves stagey artificial stuff, so maybe it's intentional, but it comes across as amateur hour to an audience used to like fifty years of method acting.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:07 |
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Gonz posted:To this day, i'm still not sure why Padme died. Was it from complications due to child birth? And if so, was that due to being force choked?
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:07 |
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Yaws posted:Probably the sudden realization that her husband was an evil malleable retard. Her heart stopped, mercy killing her. Anakin Skywalker was a pretty prolific poo poo-rear end. She chose....poorly.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:09 |
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Vegg220 posted:Are you dumb. Do you see Serf's post on this very page We understand that you are upset, but that it all we understand because you are bad at communicating. It should be easy. People can tell when you're fronting. By simply writing truthfully and accurately, I have accomplished more than you have. I have changed things.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:12 |
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Padmes an evil uncaring devil as well. Doesn't seem to care much at all that Anakin slaughtered a bunch of Sand People. Every character in the prequels loving sucks
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:13 |
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Jar Jar Binks does not suck. He is a hero.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:15 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:We understand that you are upset, but that it all we understand because you are bad at communicating. When you write like this I can't help but ask how many human faces are in your refrigerator
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:15 |
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Serf posted:Well, probably my favorite part of the prequels are the Jedi. We see the Jedi Order while it is still extant, and we see the Jedi at the height of their power. And the Jedi are not at all like what we were expecting. They are not noble knights defending the Republic, but instead a strange cult that indoctrinates children. They deny core aspects of personhood, act as muscle for the Republic, and show little respect for the downtrodden of the galaxy. Their depiction in the prequels further displays the ways in which Obi-Wan is a liar and a trickster, and also shows us why they were destroyed. They were betrayed, but only because they were too arrogant and misguided to see it coming. If any of them were as wise as Obi-Wan says, they would never have taken in Anakin and allowed him to become a Jedi. Showing the Jedi as the corrupt, blind cult that it was feels like a bold move to me, and a real subversion of fan expectations. But bold and subversive isn't automatically good. I certainly didn't expect the Jedis to be sexless monks who don't care about slavery. I wouldn't have expected them to wear clown makeup and speak in falsetto either. And it's not just the Jedi, Padme and Jar Jar aren't super concerned about slavery either. Neither of them even suggest just taking Shmi with them and telling Watto to gently caress off. Shmi doesn't suggest it either. Nobody has any respect for the downtrodden of the galaxy, not even the downtrodden. And Padme isn't allowed to have a boyfriend because she's a senator? What? The whole galaxy is sexless too. None of that is what I expected from a Star Wars movie. I'm not sure why that makes it a good thing tho. quote:I also like seeing the Republic become the Empire. They weren't invaded or conquered, no, they became the Empire through shrewd politics and manipulation by a force they were not prepared to deal with. The fact that the Empire operated for almost two decades with little interference is interesting when you see the circumstances of its creation. The people of the galaxy were played perfectly by Palpatine, and his rise to power is a joy to watch. But it didn't play out in a realistic, It Can't Happen Here style. Everyone's just kinda dumb. The Trade Federation and the Separatists go along with whatever the hologram says for some reason. The Jedi are dumb, the Senate is gullible. The Emperor rises to power because everyone else is gullible and dumb and just do what has to happen for the Emperor to rise to power. quote:And the changing style of the movies visually is great. Transitioning from sleek, clean art deco ships to the stark lines and harsh utilitarianism of the Empire is just so cool. Clearly it was a thing that Lucas worked backwards to arrive at, but seeing the how it coincides with the Republic turning to the Empire is really reminiscent of the rise of fascism in our own world, and the changing art styles reflect the changing landscape of the galaxy. But the time of the OT, the world is dirty, the technology is stagnant, and the soft, elegant ships of the past have been mostly replaced by the Empire's sharp-edged, grayscale warships. You got me there, the prequels do have really great art direction.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:17 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:12 |
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The prequels have a lot of skilled artists working on them, which is not the same thing as excellent art direction.
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# ? Oct 4, 2016 03:18 |