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PoptartsNinja posted:Looks like two Draconis Suns `Mechs may win the contest.  Looks like we need to rally around the condiment shaker, lest the CC be left with nothing...
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Apr 15, 2012 12:52
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PoptartsNinja posted:They're both far more prone to violently oppressing their own populace than any other successor state. whaaaat okay you have to defend that. More prone to oppression than the Combine? More prone to oppression than the Confederation? More serf-stomping than the Federated Suns? You probably actually know more about the canon than me so I'm not gonna just assume I'm right which I frankly do with most discussions, but can you at least back this statement up with some compare/contrasts? The coercion involved in running the LC and FWL is qualitatively different than the coercion involved in running the DC or CC. As I see it the Combine and the Confederation are both fairly totalitarian police states that use force to dictate where their citizens live, where they work, what resources they can access etc. The LC and FWL use force to keep member planets from leaving. Those two kinds of state interference are at really different levels. The common person tends to not care too much about which elite group is running the show when all is said and done, so when Duke Whatever decides to secede from the LC or FWL and gets his noble poo poo pushed in, it doesn't affect the average person that much. This is in comparison to a totalitarian police state where the state (really interstellar super-state) tells you where you can live and what your job is etc. That is far more oppressive than coercing your ruling elites into not leaving the union. Coercion is always involved in running a state. One of the fundamental underpinnings of the idea of statehood in Western political philosophy is that coercion is specifically and intentionally reserved for state use only. I don't know if you've read Rousseau, but he lays out the Enlightenment case for state coercion pretty clearly. Whether you agree with it or not, the point is that in the tradition of Enlightenment democracies the LC and FWL have every right to wage war against rebellious lords. If you're going to call the LC and FWL repressive for not allowing rebellious elites to simply abscond with the state's legally recognized territories and citizens, you're pretty much a big-A Anarchist in the modern political spectrum. Do you have some other dirt on them that I'm not aware of? Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 13:18
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None of the Great Houses care about the people that make them strong. That is why you need to give yourselves to the teachings of Blessed Blake and Conrad Toyama. It is only through the Word that salvation shall be obtained. Blake's Will be done.
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Apr 15, 2012 13:37
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Comstar could be so cool if they were a bunch of cooler and not-assholish dudes. 
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Apr 15, 2012 15:33
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Nations aren't like individual people. Depending on the governing elite, the culture, and the political situation their history can be replete with good and bad acts, just like real nations. The Steiners trying to avoid the succession wars is good, leaving Rim World colonies to die and annexing what they want is less so. The Free World League's comparative multiculturalism is good, but the effectively neoliberal economic policies (stay in/keep your market open or we crush you) is bad, as is their civil-war prone political environment. It's wrong to dismiss them all as "a bunch of dicks" or "your favourite sports team" just because they're complicated. The differences between America and China, or Western and Eastern Europe, or Australia and Japan run deeper than "what flavour of poo poo do you arbitrarily prefer based on style?" Well, okay, it's not really wrong because this is all a game and nobody's really hurt by having fun, but it's not really a healthy attitude if we're discussing actual political issues. The Lyrans and the Free World League have an advantage in that although they have bad cultural traits and the tools of oppression, these are less ingrained into society than in the other three states. A good Archon or Captain-General can rule peacefully (well, succession war aside) and fairly without using these tools or allowing these poor cultural traits to find oppressive expression. A good Coordinator, however (as Theodore is often presented as being) has to struggle against their own culture to maintain power and not inflict suffering, a good Chairman has an entirely automated apparatus of state terror to maintain least they weaken their own position in an atmosphere of political miasma, and a good Prince has precious little control over their underlings and how they rule while still effectively being accountable for their actions. All this is assuming 'good x', but it might be fairer to say 'normal x', and I suspect the above will still hold. Edit: I suspect the general lack of centralized authority in the Successor States was an intentional move, so that if a character meant to be portrayed as evil is in power they can force everyone in their state to go along with them, while if someone meant to be sympathetic is in power then any bad things their nation does can be attributed to some powerful underling they couldn't keep control of. Dolash fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 18:54
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Scurrilous posted:Political Vote Results 10 - "Clans’ chance in tactics" -> change. Did you miss the part about Tor Miraborg agreeing to be the Precentor Martial in exchange for Comstar support of a FRR? There's still hope!
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Apr 15, 2012 19:10
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Arglebargle III posted:whaaaat okay you have to defend that. It's not a matter of rebellion-stomping, and it's not as constant as the CC or the Draconis Combine to be certain; but it is a matter of scale. When the Lyrans and Free Worlders do crack down, they crack down hard and indiscriminately. They're also both very prone to turning a blind eye towards anyone with money or influence (until that person launches a full scale rebellion). But yes, I suppose 'worse' is probably a misnomer. I consider them worse because the bouts of 'crush our own population' happen so rarely that the populace never really has any idea how to come through safely. At least with the Draconis Combine, they know well enough to stay inside when the big street parties happen just in case the Friendly Persuaders decide it's a riot and start opening up with their riot shotguns.
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Apr 15, 2012 19:26
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[I decided to go a more spokesmany route with this ad. I figured maybe I'd incorporate some stuff from the actual game this time.] In the lowest floor of Solaris' factory, a Marauder collapses under the fire of a Guillotine, smoke billowing from the cockpit. With no doubt as to the fate of the pilot, the massive Heavy seems to pause a moment, as if it wanted to take a breath. That was its last mistake, because it has to deal with a Centurion. The bold Medium Mech, even as it shows its savvy by moving in to cover to avoid return fire, spits a salvo of missiles and laser fire that relentlessly tear into the larger Mech, showing no fear. The flight of missiles claw at the Guillotine's armor until its SRM magazine is finally exposed. All the competitors on the field stare in awe at this potent, audacious Mech, even as its larger opponent is destroyed from the inside out by the detonation of the SRMs. But that's not enough for him... the Centurion has work to do! ----------------- I'm Antonin Césaire, and I'm the new spokesman for Corean Enterprises' Centurion. I've gotten a lot of offers from companies asking me to use their Mech since I pulled a huge upset in the Factory, but for me, there's only one choice: the CN9-AL Centurion. A lot of people underestimated me and Legionnaire, and at first glance, it's not hard to see why. I was going up against Mechs that were up to 25 tons heavier than me. I might not have been able to pull it off in a standard Centurion, but the -AL, complete with new equipment straight from the brightest minds in the Capellan Confederation, made it possible. First, the replacement of the standard Luxor-D Autocannon with a Firmir MaxiLease Large Laser, while sacrificing some firepower, reduced my ammunition dependency by replacing that big gun with an energy weapon. Given the way my opponent in the Guillotine went down, we can all see that's a bonus. But that's not to say I don't appreciate a good ammo-fed weapon. The Luxor 3R LRM-10 was a showcase for Capellan ingenuity. Most people would think that a weapon with a minimum range of 180 meters would be a handicap in the close quarters of a Factory battle. But advanced Listen-Kill missiles make our missile launchers more accurate than ever, and before the match, the stable chose to hot-load these deadly missiles to ensure all missiles were armed regardless of the distance. As my opponents can tell you, that decision was highly effective. Finally, the weight savings from the changeover between AC and laser provided additional dividends beyond just eliminating a volatile ammo bin. The Centurion-AL mounts an additional 2.5 tons of armor, bringing the total to 11 tons of StarGuard III protection, as well as six additional heat sinks to help dissipate the additional heat of the large laser. Don't let what people say about it being a mid-range trooper design fool you; the Centurion is a machine that stands with the best of them. And if anyone ever makes that mistake a gain, Cesaire will be there to teach them. As many times as it takes. So in conclusion... here is a painting of me right after I messed someone up.  Corean Enterprises: We made the Centurion, so the guys who made the Guillotine and Catapult should step the gently caress back. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 19:56
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Defiance Industries posted:Corean Enterprises: We made the Centurion, so the guys who made the Guillotine and Catapult should step the gently caress back.
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Apr 15, 2012 20:19
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PoptartsNinja posted:It's not a matter of rebellion-stomping, and it's not as constant as the CC or the Draconis Combine to be certain; but it is a matter of scale. When the Lyrans and Free Worlders do crack down, they crack down hard and indiscriminately. They're also both very prone to turning a blind eye towards anyone with money or influence (until that person launches a full scale rebellion). Every last nation and clan is based on institutions that favor the wealthy elite at the expense of the broad majority. That's why the peasants don't really care who controls the planet, except as far as what they end up losing in the war. Without any representation in politics, they have little to lose in exchanging masters. There are no good guys, only different cycles of oppression.
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Apr 15, 2012 20:30
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:There are no good guys, only different cycles of oppression. This still isn't a very informative assertion. It's not hard to assert that democracy does no better job of representing the "will of the people" when the system is nigh-inevitably abused, and various forms of communal living and anarchy have their own drawbacks and sins. Not to mention you can have Republics with bad cultural values using their strength to enforce suffering upon kingdoms with benevolent rulers and and a healthier society. I'm not the sort of person who ranks a benevolent dictatorship as the best form of government (always a dumb idea, where human beings are concerned), but you have to get into the details and grit of a nation to judge it. Democracy is good, but all democracies aren't automatically better than all non-democracies unless you start getting into a sort of 'No true Scotsmen' situation.
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Apr 15, 2012 20:37
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Defiance Industries posted:Corean Enterprises: We made the Centurion, so the guys who made the Guillotine and Catapult should step the gently caress back.  Actually, it's six additional heat sinks, not four. In seriousness, though, nice write-up!
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Apr 15, 2012 20:40
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landcollector posted:
So it is. I always thought the stock CN9 had twelve for some reason? Maybe I had it mixed up with a similar design.
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Apr 15, 2012 20:43
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Dolash posted:I'm not the sort of person who ranks a benevolent dictatorship as the best form of government (always a dumb idea, where human beings are concerned) I concur. I'm not an anarchist either, and of the great houses it'd probably be best to live in the FWL or Lyran Commonwealth; but that doesn't mean doing so is risk-free and that doesn't mean that they are 'good' governments. There's give and take with any government, but I'd probably personally prefer to live in one of the periphery states.
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Apr 15, 2012 20:54
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PoptartsNinja posted:There's give and take with any government, but I'd probably personally prefer to live in one of the periphery states. Magistracy. if I had any choice of where to live, it'd probably be there. Because that just seems drat nice, compared to the other places on the table. Nonperiphery, I'd have to say post-3062 CC.
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Apr 15, 2012 21:34
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Everybody knows the best place to live was the Saiph Triumvirate.
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Apr 15, 2012 21:36
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Terra from about 2900 until when Terra gets attacked in the Jihad is pretty drat sweet. JHS:Terra sums it up pretty well.quote:The long efforts of the Terran Alliance, Hegemony, Star League, and BoTA have undone centuries of aggressive industrialization and growth that occurred near the beginning of the Third Millennium. Pollution clean-up, ecosystem repair, and reduction of urban sprawl have reduced mankind’s impact on the homeworld until more of it is in a pristine state than at any time in the past 1,500 years. The populous metropoli of Terra are compact and built up, surrounded by restored fields and forests. Factories are usually unobtrusive, underground facilities. Also, the highest standard of living and per capita earnings of anywhere in the Sphere, even though the work week is almost never more than 30 hours. Also everyone has a hovercar that runs on a Mr. Fusion.
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Apr 15, 2012 21:51
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Well, if you want a good government in Battletech, you could always consider the Republic of the Sph- ouch! Okay! Stop it with the tomatoes! VVVV Ahahaha, oh man Ghost War was amazingly terrible. Dolash fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 21:53
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Dolash posted:Well, if you want a good government in Battletech, you could always consider the Republic of the Sph- ouch! Okay! Stop it with the tomatoes! Say what you will about Loki, at least our spies don't beat up college students so that Stackpole can act out his fantasies.
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Apr 15, 2012 21:54
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Dolash posted:This still isn't a very informative assertion. It's not hard to assert that democracy does no better job of representing the "will of the people" when the system is nigh-inevitably abused, and various forms of communal living and anarchy have their own drawbacks and sins. Not to mention you can have Republics with bad cultural values using their strength to enforce suffering upon kingdoms with benevolent rulers and and a healthier society. Pluralistic institutions can also protect each wave of innovation from the old guard, since their power-sharing nature prevents the industry or industries that would suffer from stomping the new generation out, at least until the latter has enough power to defend itself. Benevolence and villainy are individual characteristics. National institutions can only favor a minority or a majority, and a favored minority (or a favored majority, when you come to it) will always try to live at the expense of the unfavored remainder.
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Apr 15, 2012 22:24
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Defiance Industries posted:Corean Enterprises: We made the Centurion, so the guys who made the Guillotine and Catapult should step the gently caress back. Corean Enterprises: Our catalogues don't need pictures because everyone knows what our mechs look like. Dolash posted:Well, if you want a good government in Battletech, you could always consider the Republic of the Sph- ouch! Okay! Stop it with the tomatoes!
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Apr 16, 2012 01:43
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The Republic was so transparent in the writer's attempt to get us to care about them. Make the state a total camel where it's just a bunch of traits from other nations, and make sure ALL the material is exclusively their PoV? If it were any more desperate for me to like it, it would be Jaina Solo.
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Apr 16, 2012 02:04
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Andrevian posted:Magistracy. if I had any choice of where to live, it'd probably be there. Because that just seems drat nice, compared to the other places on the table. Then again, if you're choosing to live in a state where one of the planets is named Hardcore, you probably know what you're getting into.
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Apr 16, 2012 03:56
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Provided you don't get sold into slavery. Given that Andrevian is probably male, the MoC is a really, really bad choice. Makes the Combine look gender-equal.
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Apr 16, 2012 04:25
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Gimme the Outworlds Alliance. Pretty quiet, ignored by most everybody. Granted the whole "Raven Alliance" thing gets a little weird, but until then? It's not that bad.
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Apr 16, 2012 05:17
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Pretty sure the Magistracy isn't the slaveholding one. That's the Taurian Concordat IIRC. And I think Andrevian can live with the fact that the upper nobility and military are somewhat biased towards women if it means he gets to live in a stable, prosperous space-country that's not really focused on being belligerent, expansionist assholes.
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Apr 16, 2012 05:45
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Felime posted:Pretty sure the Magistracy isn't the slaveholding one. That's the Taurian Concordat IIRC. Men in the MoC don't have the right to refuse sexual consent, among other things.
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Apr 16, 2012 05:50
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Defiance Industries posted:Men in the MoC don't have the right to refuse sexual consent, among other things. Oh, the Space 80s...
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Apr 16, 2012 05:52
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Well, the Magistracy did have seriously messed up laws regarding men at first, but those got stamped out/abolished after the Reunification War. Though there is no denying that socially it is still rather biased against men (and not in a ridiculous MRA sort of way.) Hell, Hadjii Doru was a man and he pretty much ran the state for most of the Jihad; then again he may just have been "One of the good ones." Still, I am pretty sure that the legally raping men law is on the out. After all, consent is pretty much the only hard and fast social law in the Magistracy, considering most of their economy is based on orgies and drug binges. Speaking of the Space 80's, it's also the only country not based off some silly 80's ethnic stereotype  The whole Raven Alliance thing is kinda disappointing to me. I was a big fan of the Outworlds Alliance and Snow Raven was one of my favorite clans, but the two of them together don't really have much in common besides favoring Aerospace combat. But I just can't see any clan warrior society meshing well with what are essentially space pacifists.
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Apr 16, 2012 06:27
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Felime posted:Pretty sure the Magistracy isn't the slaveholding one. That's the Taurian Concordat IIRC. See. Here's where I was. I'm still pretty sure it's the Concordat that does slaves, what with being Space Military Roman types. I figured it'd be all well and cool. I mean, let's face it, I can deal with not being in the dominant power group, as long as the other stuff holds. Defiance Industries posted:Men in the MoC don't have the right to refuse sexual consent, among other things.  Yeah, gently caress you too, battletech writers. Gotta make the one place that sounded like a good shot a freaky-rear end rapehaven. Even though I'm pretty sure everything I've read contradicts this, I wouldn't put it past the bastards. First they make the Federated Suns the good guys somehow, then this. gently caress you, battletech writers.
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Apr 16, 2012 06:44
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The MoC has a lot of kinda weird laws regarding males, but most of them are considered "old fashioned" by 3040. It is also the only state where bribes are not only expected but required for rank in the military.
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Apr 16, 2012 06:56
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Combat Theater Vote 10 Results: The Protectorate Iron Guard upholds their reputation for never failing with 34 votes It’s a Pirate’s Life for the Rim World Black Guard with 26 votes Praetorian Guards establish a costly beachhead with 17 votes The 2nd St. Ives Lancers fight to a stalemate with 14 votes Caldera “Stupid whoresons,” Sergeant Damaris Golde cursed over the comms. “Why the gently caress would the supply DropShip come down out here?” “Physics?” Lieutenant J.G Lycoris Asker replied cheerfully. “Someone forgot to do their math, and now we’ve got an Easter’s egg hunt on our hands.” Ensconced in his trusty Shadow Hawk, Lieutenant S.G. Erasmus Chatzi laughed heartily. “Careful you don’t let the Colonel hear you, Asker. You know how big he is on these wilderness S&R ops.” “Still, they came down in the Calderas,” Damaris continued. “There isn’t any drinkable water for a hundred miles—” “The trees seem to like it,” Private Vernados Zane interjected, his little Hammer pushing through a copse of sparse trees. Wood splintered as his `Mech’s little fist tried to push a branch aside. “Ok. So maybe they’re not the healthiest trees I’ve ever seen.” “Sir,” Damaris’ voice cut into the comms. again. “I think we should tighten up our formation.” “Hard to do a sweep for a downed DropShip if we’re all in spitting distance of each other,” Lycoris pointed out helpfully. Erasmus’ radio crackled as Damaris switched to their private frequency. “Ell-Tee, this is Aylmer’s ‘ambush country.’ I know dropships have crashed out here before but we’ve got two companies out here. We should combine more closely with Lieutenant Asker’s lance for this sweep.” The Map:  Protectorate Iron Guard M1) SHD-2H Shadow Hawk Lieutenant S.G. Erasmus Chatzi (Sair) M2) HER-2S Hermes II Sergeant Damaris Golde (Pinguliten) M3) STN-1S Sentinel Private Karan Stephanopoulos (BatteredFeltFedora) M4) CDA-3C Cicada PFC Stavros Andreou (Rhobot Mk. II) M5) HER-1S Hermes Lieutenant J.G. Lycoris Asker (LeschNyhan) M6) VAL-QA Valkyrie Corporal Hector Halas (GreyjoyBastard) M7) SDR-5V Spider PFC Flavian Gryphon (cafel) M8) HMR-2M Hammer Private Vernados Zane ( 17th Arcturan Guards A1) WLF-1 Wolfhound A2) COM-2D Commando A3) CLNT-2-3T Clint A4) BZK-F2 Hollander A5) B0C-13T Bobcat A6) GRF-1S Griffin Alternates, please stand by for an availability confirmation PM / e-mail: Son Ryo Affi Remora Mission Objective: Drive Off the 17th Arcturan Guards (0/6) Secondary Objective: Destroy the 17th Arcturan Guards (0/6) PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Apr 16, 2012 |
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Apr 16, 2012 07:45
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PoptartsNinja posted:Protectorate Iron Guard Wow. Light and low end medium fest, with 2x 55 tonners and the unknown Bobcat, as well as either a typoed gauss rifle Hollander, or an alternate universe one.
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Apr 16, 2012 08:02
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Feels like a return to our first mission where a 55 tonner is a bruiser. I'd be careful when trying to gun for that Hollander. PTN is likely to use as bait while it picks you off if you get too aggressive.
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Apr 16, 2012 08:31
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So who in-fluff are the 17th Arcturan Guards? More Rimworlds regiments? Rimworlders dressed up as Steiners?
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Apr 16, 2012 08:34
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 PTN, I have to opt out and let a replacement take it. Something's come up and it's unlikely that I'll have much internet access for at least the next week.
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Apr 16, 2012 08:52
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Team, I'd be very careful about this one. You've got the Arcturans outnumbered and outgunned...and PTN doesn't hand out easy assignments like that. Keep an eye out for reinforcements or hidden infantry or mines or something besides what's obvious.
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Apr 16, 2012 09:06
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Judicator65 posted:Wow. Light and low end medium fest, with 2x 55 tonners and the unknown Bobcat, as well as either a typoed gauss rifle Hollander, or an alternate universe one. The -F2 Hollander is the one I designed a while back. Affi posted:So who in-fluff are the 17th Arcturan Guards? More Rimworlds regiments? Rimworlders dressed up as Steiners? Well, the fact that they field both that Wolfhound and that Hollander, both of which are at this time proprietary House Steiner designs, suggests that they are who they say they are. I'm trying to come up with anything notable I can say about them at this point, but everything they've done worth mentioning hasn't happened in this universe. If PTN is using their special rules (which he's probably not) they win init every time they destroy a mech, so that's something.
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Apr 16, 2012 09:34
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So basically NRWR struck a bargain with the Lyrans to invade the FWL at the same time, very interesting. Also speaking as an alternate I think I'm going to have a problem with being available and on time so if passing is an option? I am just swamped at work and at home, I hope I can still remain in the rotation?
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Apr 16, 2012 09:39
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Andrevian posted:See. Here's where I was. I'm still pretty sure it's the Concordat that does slaves, what with being Space Military Roman types. I figured it'd be all well and cool. I mean, let's face it, I can deal with not being in the dominant power group, as long as the other stuff holds. Actually, I think the Marian Hegemony is the slaveholding one.
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Apr 16, 2012 12:30
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