|
EricBauman posted:I feel like I'm going slightly insane because I half remember a story from the history of Republican Rome (maybe kingdom period even), but I can't find any references to it on the internet. Dionysus of Halicarnassus tells a story about how an unnamed father dragged his unnamed magistrate son from the senate while he was making a speech, focusing on how none of the senate or people could help the son even though they had all been loving his speech. Dionysus mostly tells the story to illustrate the absolute power of the paterfamilias in Roman custom and law (even a son who had attained high office was still under paternal authority), so we needn’t take it completely literally. But it may well be a reference to the story of Spurius Cassius, who in 485 was condemned and executed by conservative leaders for having used his tribunate to pass a populist agrarian law. Depending on the telling of the story you credit, it might have been a proper trial, a kangaroo court, or a private condemnation by his own father that led to his death.
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 22:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 21, 2024 20:36 |
|
|
EricBauman posted:
Brutus (the one who overthrew the king, not the one who killed Caesar) ordered his sons put to death, and then watched their beatings and beheadings, after they were involved in a conspiracy to bring back the king.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:00
|
|
|
Kaal posted:If the Ottoman Empire isn't considered a legitimate government or part of Greek culture after governing for 400 years, Who said anything about it being illegitimate? And yes the Ottoman period unquestionably influenced modern Greek culture in ways Greek nationalists would deny (and be wrong to do so).... and your point is what? quote:then nothing around today has a particularly legitimate claim on the product of an Athenian artist either. Your perspective seems to basically be "strip away any complexity or the validity of other stakeholders, Multiple posters keep speaking as if Turkey is also requesting the Marbles separately or something, except that it isn't. Something like that would introduce complexity (though it would be silly given the location of the Parthenon). But that isn't the situation. It's the UK vs Greece, which is extraordinarily clean cut regarding questions of cultural heritage. Dalael posted:Greece, the most stable country in the European Union. A country with a strong and stable economy and which never sees citizens throwing molotov cocktails at anything. West Euros regarding the east of the continent as rampant barbarism is bad enough as is, but at least Greece is usually spared that stereotype. You on the other hand were up to the challenge! Bravo!
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:11
|
|
|
Grape posted:West Euros regarding the east of the continent as rampant barbarism is bad enough as is, but at least Greece is usually spared that stereotype. You on the other hand were up to the challenge! Bravo! I thought by definition Greece could not be barbaric.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:15
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:Brutus (the one who overthrew the king, not the one who killed Caesar) ordered his sons put to death, and then watched their beatings and beheadings, after they were involved in a conspiracy to bring back the king. This must be it! I'm so happy it wasn't something that I just imagined. Thank you! And reading up on it in Dionysius now, I think the version I read before (no idea where, it may have been my Latin course book twenty years ago) may have had Collatinus plead for their lives, because he does try to let some other conspirators go. But Brutus, of course, isn't having that. quote:"Not while I am alive, Collatinus, shall you be able to free those who are traitors to their country." Collatinus is actually a pretty tragic character, being related to the royal family and losing his wife to the same royal family, and then getting spat out before his year as consul was even up, just because of his name. I guess revolutions really do devour their young. EricBauman fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jun 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:15
|
|
|
Dalael posted:Maybe you need to re-evaluate your definition of racism, you ever think of that? There's nothing racist in saying that Greece is currently unstable economically and politically and probably not the best country to safeguard artifacts when they're literally selling their airports for quick cash infusion. I'm given to thinking whatever mental processes are transforming Greece into Libya or Syria in your head, pretty much have to involve intense ignorant xenophobia to function. So the lady really doth protest to much.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:18
|
|
|
HookedOnChthonics posted:If there is a legitimate human interest that might be served, such as allowing colonized places a shot at establishing academic and tourist centers around their own artifacts, rather than having it dictated by London, for instance, that is a concrete benefit that might be enjoyed by (in the case of Benin) 3rd or 4th generation descendants of the people from whom they were taken. IMO this is definitely the most compelling argument for repatriation, and way more flatly valid than convoluted arguments about ownership. Using the artifacts to help rebuild cultural identities that were in large part destroyed by colonialism will be hugely beneficial to those nations and people, as opposed to just being about pride like the marbles. Conversely I think being able to expose people that might otherwise be totally unaware of them to those cultures is extremely important too. Speaking for myself, visits to museums have been easily the single most important factor in my interest in ancient history and the reason I've taken an interest in learning more, and they're the only reason I even know about things like the Benin Bronzes at all. I guess there's a selfishness in saying I should get to have this experience as a European while denying it to people in Benin itself, but there's no getting away from the fact that the British Museum is and will for at least the near future remain a way more trafficked and accessible destination. incidentally on accessibility it's really worth stressing: HookedOnChthonics posted:Feel free to come here and buy a ticket CoolCab posted:"we're a Compendium of the Human Condition" horseshit I think trying to spin this like it's a bad thing is really bizarre. Lots of valid problems with the British Museum (and nearly all major European museums) but being a place for people to experience the diversity of human history is really not one of them. Koramei fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jun 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:19
|
|
|
Grape posted:
Are you guys done trying to twists other people's words to fit your narrative? Its loving retarded, especially coming from this thread.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:21
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:I thought by definition Greece could not be barbaric. That was the illustrious ancient Greeks whom created "The West" and are the grandfathers of Britain, France, and Germany (all the good countries). Not the broke brownish people trying to claim some personal connection to Greeks today, they're just Turks with churches. The wrong kind of churches mind. Yessir it doesn't get much more Hellenic than England. Dalael posted:Are you guys done trying to twists other people's words to fit your narrative? Its loving retarded, especially coming from this thread. I wasn't on board with the accusations, .... but then you posted some sort of "Fox News talks Mexico" fear-mongering goofiness where Greece is apparently some sort of super third world semi-anarchy. Grape fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jun 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:23
|
|
|
There was an archaeological site I visited in Turkey where the Ottoman government had no interest in funding digs but were willing to sell the archaeological rights to Germans. So there were signs everywhere saying "this is what this building was, and all the movable artifacts proving that are in a museum in Berlin". It's not really the same situation as the marbles but I'm glad the dig got funded instead of the cool ancient site staying buried underground. If I ever find myself in Berlin I'll definitely be going to that museum.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:27
|
|
|
Grape posted:I'm given to thinking whatever mental processes are transforming Greece into Libya or Syria in your head, pretty much have to involve intense ignorant xenophobia to function. So the lady really doth protest to much. You're a real loving basket case, did you know that? I will never cease to be amazed by how fast people can use  .Did I say they're barbarian? Did I say they're in total Chaos? Did I call them BROWN DEVILS or some poo poo like that? Get a loving clue holy gently caress. Right now, Greece is so broke they're selling their own infrastructure to meet the crazy demands of the austerity measure imposed on them. There's nothing racist about that assertion. When a government is busy selling its regional airports and other facilities, do you honestly think that committing funds to the preservation of artifacts is going to be its priority? But sure fuckwad, keep using you in order to shut down any discussion.Grape posted:I wasn't on board with the accusations, .... but then you posted some sort of "Fox News talks Mexico" fear-mongering goofiness where Greece is apparently some sort of super third world semi-anarchy. I wasn't and its retarded to always come to this sort of conclusions. *edit: Don't make me pull my "I have a black friend" card. Dalael fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jun 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:28
|
|
|
What's this about Atlantis and Bolivia?
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:33
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:What's this about Atlantis and Bolivia? There was a crackpot who was convinced that he had found Atlantis and it was in Bolivia, citing as evidence the fact that there was a particular geographical feature described in the book about Atlantis that could be found nowhere else in the world. Mind, the crackpot had to ignore, wave away, cherry-pick, and selectively interpret a bunch of OTHER geographical features to make it fit, and of course his whole drat thesis was that Atlantis was located in the mountains of Bolivia, but hey, he found Atlantis!
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:46
|
|
|
Tomn posted:There was a crackpot who was convinced that he had found Atlantis and it was in Bolivia, citing as evidence the fact that there was a particular geographical feature described in the book about Atlantis that could be found nowhere else in the world. Mind, the crackpot had to ignore, wave away, cherry-pick, and selectively interpret a bunch of OTHER geographical features to make it fit, and of course his whole drat thesis was that Atlantis was located in the mountains of Bolivia, but hey, he found Atlantis! Its not quite how it is no. Plus that question was rhetorical and a jab at me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:49
|
|
|
He's been posting in this thread for all of a week so I'm not sure it was rhetorical dude, but if you feel like outing yourself anyway
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:51
|
|
|
Koramei posted:He's been posting in this thread for all of a week so I'm not sure it was rhetorical dude, but if you feel like outing yourself anyway Didn't know and I never shied away from the stuff i posted. Plus im not the one who made the claim, i just think its interesting. The guys who made the claim is Jim Allen. Or something along the lines, i'd have to check again.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2018 23:56
|
|
|
Koramei posted:
it feels like a thin veneer of respectability that’s trying to justify an outrageously exploitative imperial legacy. you can build a monument to the human experience or you can display all the spoils of colonialism and your empire- it feels very disingenuous to try and do both, particularly since the empire itself was such a stain on said human experience.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 00:02
|
|
|
Yeah, I was deliberately not mentioning who was doing the arguing since you'd been a good enough sport about it that I didn't feel it was worth raking up old coals, but if you wanna own it, your prerogative.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 00:03
|
|
|
Dalael posted:When a government is busy selling its regional airports and other facilities, do you honestly think that committing funds to the preservation of artifacts is going to be its priority? When a huge part of their economy is tourism, yes.  quote:I wasn't and its retarded to always come to this sort of conclusions. Then don't post xenophobic hysteria? Like you're mourning the "shut down" of discussion here, when you had steered the discussion to "GREECE WILL SELL IT'S HERITAGE OR BURN IT DOWN IN RIOTS".
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 00:03
|
|
|
Grape posted:When a huge part of their economy is tourism, yes. Again! Its YOUR loving words and absolutely nothing close to what I said. All I said was a sarcastic comment on how the country is currently not in the best position to actually take care of artifacts. You and whatsisface are the ones who went right for so get hosed
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 00:12
|
|
|
I do think the claim that Greece is incapable of managing and protecting antiquities is xenophobic, speaking as a British person. Removing the marbles undoubtedly prevented them from being damaged by explosives - though cleaning caused massive damage - but that was a long loving time ago.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 00:17
|
|
|
Grape posted:That was the illustrious ancient Greeks whom created "The West" and are the grandfathers of Britain, France, and Germany (all the good countries). Not the broke brownish people trying to claim some personal connection to Greeks today, they're just Turks with churches. The wrong kind of churches mind. Actually, if you study history quite closely, you'll find that the actual grandfathers of Britain are the Trojans, and it seems only fitting that descendants of the Trojans should receive compensation for having their city burned to the ground and their inhabitants enslaved.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 00:34
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:I do think the claim that Greece is incapable of managing and protecting antiquities is xenophobic, speaking as a British person. Its not xenophobie. I havent said one single thing about them as a race, i only brought up the current troubled economic times. Its ironic that people who absolutely have to make everything about race are accusing others who didnt say a loving word about race, of racism. When I talk about greeks, im talking about Greece the nation and i couldn't give a single gently caress about the colour of the skin of its inhabitants.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 00:46
|
|
|
That's ridiculous. There is zero indication that Greece would fail to care for its artifacts because of its economic distress. It's a red herring. And xenophobia is not a race specific thing, which is specifically why I chose this language. Get your head out of your rear end.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 00:49
|
|
|
Who cares about the Elgin Marbles? The real point is that Asia Minor, Thrace, and Cyprus are inseparable parts of Greek culture and should be immediately returned.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 01:05
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:That's ridiculous. There is zero indication that Greece would fail to care for its artifacts because of its economic distress. It's a red herring. https://relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/public/amp/2015/08/150817-greece-looting-artifacts-financial-crisis-archaeology http://amp.timeinc.net/time/3956017/greece-bailout-selloff http://illicitculturalproperty.com/tag/greece/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKCN18F1RJ There's n9 indication! Your a racist  - This loving thread.You are the ones who need to get your heads out if your rear end. I dont give a flying gently caress about people's skin color and i never made any loving allusion to their race. Either accept that loving fact, or get lobbed into the group of SJW who cries racism over loving cornrow hair. Would my argument stand 20 years ago? I dont know, im not sure how stable it was back then 20 years from now? We will see. But right loving now, you have to be blind to think that Greece is a country with no issue.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 01:16
|
|
|
All right guys shut the gently caress up with the museums derail. I was hoping it wouldn't devolve into angry name calling but we have arrived.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 01:20
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:All right guys shut the gently caress up with the museums derail. I was hoping it wouldn't devolve into angry name calling but we have arrived. My apologies for my part in this stupid rear end derail into sjw territory.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 01:21
|
|
|
Grape posted:That was the illustrious ancient Greeks whom created "The West" and are the grandfathers of Britain, France, and Germany (all the good countries). Not the broke brownish people trying to claim some personal connection to Greeks today, they're just Turks with churches. The wrong kind of churches mind. The linguistic joke was too subtle, I guess. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 01:23
|
|
|
fantastic in plastic posted:Who cares about the Elgin Marbles? The real point is that Asia Minor, Thrace, and Cyprus are inseparable parts of Greek culture and should be immediately returned. Oh they've tried for two of those, and it ended with them being chased away and the Greeks native to those places undergoing ethnic cleansing.  Greece can be trusted with their cultural artifacts, but definitely not prosecuting irredentism. They really suck at that. Dalael posted:https://relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/public/amp/2015/08/150817-greece-looting-artifacts-financial-crisis-archaeology Ok I'm uncomfortable as an American having to explain this to a European, but well, some countries have a thing called "lots of history". Meaning there is ancient stuff pretty much all over the place, buried and stuff. So while the governments might have all sorts of protected sites and museums going on, there's still lots of stuff that is out there like in the middle of nowhere (or people's backyards) that random people can take advantage of. Like maybe look at your own articles and how they're talking about smuggling coins, and not large temple sculptures. Or the bit about people buying up metal detectors to do these things, and not cartoon cat burglar costumes for museum raiding purposes. Grape fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jun 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 02:26
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:All right guys shut the gently caress up with the museums derail. I was hoping it wouldn't devolve into angry name calling but we have arrived. I'm dating a girl adopted from Bulgaria who wants to learn more about Bulgarian history. Any good books that cover Bulgaria, pre-history to present? Or books covering these periods?
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 02:53
|
|
|
sweet hoky gently caress are there really dumb fuckers trying to say that modern greece shouldn't have the elgin loving marbles? With the loving explanation that they cant responsibly loving handle them? Have any of you stupid moronic wordy style idiots been to the classical museums in athens? Fuckin lol at the idea that modern greeks have no claim of attachment to the region's classical history, it's a huge part of their pride and cultural heritage. God loving drat. Somebody get killmonger in here already
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 02:54
|
|
|
a racist Frenchman? why I never fake edit: frenchman is not the preferred nomenclature, Dude
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 03:17
|
|
Dalael posted:https://relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/public/amp/2015/08/150817-greece-looting-artifacts-financial-crisis-archaeology None of this is valid. We're talking about strictly regulated sells of antiquities to buyers on the one hand, or theft of unguarded antiquities on the other. Neither is relevant to the Elgin marbles.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 03:29
|
|
|
I have no opinion on the location of w/e but I saw this quote on wikipedia and got really excited at the possibility of some trace of greco-roman religion surviving to 1800  quote:In 1801 for example, Edward Clarke and his assistant Cripps, obtained an authorisation from the governor of Athens for the removal of a statue of the goddess Demeter which was at Eleusis, with the intervention of Italian artist Giovanni Battista Lusieri who was Lord Elgin's assistant at the time.[37] Prior to Clarke, the statue had been discovered in 1676 by the traveller George Wheler, and since then several ambassadors had submitted unsuccessful applications for its removal,[38][39] but Clarke had been the one to remove the statue by force,[40] after bribing the waiwode of Athens and obtaining a firman,[38] despite the objections and a riot,[40][41] of the local population who unofficially, and against the traditions of the iconoclastic Church, worshiped the statue as the uncanonised Saint Demetra (Greek: Αγία Δήμητρα).[40] The people would adorn the statue with garlands,[40] and believed that the goddess was able to bring fertility to their fields and that the removal of the statue would cause that benefit to disappear.[38][40][42][43] I'm not sure how reliable the sources are, would be interesting if there was any more information about worship of uncanonized saints in 19th century Greece!
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 04:22
|
|
|
I followed one of those sources for that quote and found this weird old book of folklore with legends from 19th century Greece. Apparently Demeter was officially turned into a male saint but several places people remembered the Greek form in various forms.     Unfortunately they don't have the end in the google books preview. Will Demetra's daughter be rescued from the perfidious Turk  I like the addition of dragons to this story, I think the ancient version was some what lacking in gratuitous violence.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 05:06
|
|
|
Wasn't that a thing that happened in other ways as well? Christian saints getting conflated with polytheistic practices and stories? Not exactly the same as the old religion surviving on its own. Although the 19th century was also around the time for neo-paganism to start up, wasn't it?
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 05:10
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I already made the ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ joke but nobody noticed >_< But then I can't run my hands all over a priceless work of art like I can in a real museum when nobody is looking.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 05:39
|
|
|
this thread is really bad at reading red textSlothfulCobra posted:Wasn't that a thing that happened in other ways as well? Christian saints getting conflated with polytheistic practices and stories? Not exactly the same as the old religion surviving on its own. This always seemed a little overblown to me. I know there's..two? off the top of my head, but that's not a huge cultural interchange, is it? Am I missing large swathes of it happening? (Quite possible)
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 05:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 21, 2024 20:36 |
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:I didn't notice that bit, I was thinking more about how the crown jewels also have the same deal where some people are clamoring to return them to their native lands. You mean, like taking them back to England? That would be a short trip.  Edit: gently caress, I hate it when a new page drops just after editing a post. Libluini fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jun 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2018 05:48
|
|
