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He still had to write a lot of what was in the books, including character dialogue. So him changing how he's writing characters in response to feedback while also the "jokey" matt dialogue being RJ's isn't exactly mutually exclusive. As far as how well we know, I don't have like a cork board handy but I know i've seen interviews and posts from non-sando sources that generally support the claim. Other people have seen the notes and rough drafts. Sando didn't write the books in a vacuum, there was a team involved.
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May 7, 2024 22:45
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There's a post somewhere wherein Sanderson lays out pretty clearly what was his and what was Jordan's and it was mostly his. Jordan did all three prologues (as one prologue), he did Veins of Gold and most of the epilogue (except the Cadsuane part, since Sanderson killed Egwene not Jordan), he did Mat rescuing Moiraine, and maybe a couple of other big moments, but the vast, vast majority of the story was Sanderson. Once Jordan knew he was dying, he turned his efforts primarily to outlining what he could so that someone else would be able to finish the story for him. Egwene and Rand were the most complete, the only note for Perrin was "King of the West", which Sanderson promptly discarded as I will bring up in my reread every time anything that foreshadows Perrin's becoming King of Saldaea, the Two Rivers, Ghealdan, and Amadicia happens. The Dragon Reborn Chapter 10: Secrets Thoughts This chapter starts with a Whitecloak symbol because they're going to cause Egwene grief. quote:I will never be collared again! She pushed the thought away, but it came back turned end about. I will never lose my freedom again! So, as we can see, Egwene has not magically recovered from her months of trauma after months off freedom. Indeed, she will never fully recover and frankly I expect that even if she'd survived the book series she'd have issues for the rest of her life. quote:Anaiya would be there. And Galad, too, perhaps. She blushed in spite of herself, and banished him from her mind entirely. Jordan was probably still laying groundwork for the finale that didn't happen with her and Galad pairing off after Gawyn's death. I'm not quite sure when that ending plan would have gone away. quote:“I swear I will never wear gray again, Bela,” she told her shaggy mount, patting the mare’s neck. Not that I’ll have much choice once we’re back in the White Tower, she thought. In the Tower, all novices wore white. And of course she'll soon be wearing the seven-colored stole of the Amyrlin, which represents the Gray Ajah as much as the others. quote:“Do you wonder how Moiraine is treating Lan?” she asked sweetly, and had a moment of pleasure at the sharp jerk Nynaeve gave her braid. Egwene thinks that wounding remarks don't come naturally to her, but I don't believe that at all. She's quite sharp-tongued when she wants to be, which is often (she's a Jordan woman after all). That said, I think speaking back to Nynaeve is something newer to her; back in Emond's Field Nynaeve was a respected authority and Egwene's mentor. quote:Six people, Egwene thought, and how many secrets? They all shared more than one, secrets that would have to be kept, perhaps, even in the White Tower. Amusingly, one of the secrets in this party that Egwene doesn't know about will be revealed to her much, much later in the Tower. quote:Nynaeve had always been able to foretell the weather. Listening to the wind, it was called, and the Wisdom of every village was expected to do it, though many really could not. Yet since leaving Emond’s Field, Nynaeve’s ability had grown, or changed. The storms she felt sometimes had to do with men rather than wind, now. It's rather interesting to me how all the members of the EF5 have their styles of divination (Perrin and Egwene have T'A'R, Mat gets the dice, and Rand has a whole book of prophecies written just about him) and yet they're all very indirect when Elaida-style Foretelling exists. I suppose it's not very dramatic to get prophecies as straightforward as hers was on a regular basis. quote:She was of the Brown Ajah, and the Brown sisters usually cared more for seeking out knowledge than for anything in the world around them. Egwene was not so sure of Verin’s detachment, though. Verin had put herself hip-deep in the affairs of the world by being with them. Egwene's ability to see how people don't fit the stereotypes of their affiliation is one of the things that sets her up to be a good leader for the Aes Sedai. quote:Years of experience seemed to have given him some talent at sniffing out wrongdoers, especially those who had done violence. Poor Egwene is not actually in the loop about Hurin though. Kinda funny that we can see the truth distorting at a single degree of separation. quote:Egwene thought he might be uneasy at being alone, for all practical purposes, with an Aes Sedai and three women in training for sisterhood. Some men found facing a fight easier than facing Aes Sedai. She's not entirely wrong, though her ignorance of his talent means she's not quite understanding his motivation. quote:“The One Power won’t do you much good if somebody kills you before you can use it,” Hurin said, addressing the tall pommel of his saddle. drat Hurin, that's a pretty ballsy thing to say to a bunch of would-be Aes Sedai, even if you can't quite look them in the eyes to say it. quote:“I wish I had some idea how much she does know. Egwene, I don’t know if my mother could help me if the Amyrlin found out, much less help the pair of you. Or even whether she would try.” Naturally, Morgase does in fact try to help Elayne when she thinks the Tower is doing her wrong, though she is unable to do much. How much of that is Rahvin's fault I'm not sure. quote:“I will do what must be done,” Nynaeve said sharply, “if there is anything to be done, and you two will run, if need be. The White Tower may be all abuzz with your potential, but don’t think they will not still you both if the Amyrlin Seat or the Hall of the Tower decides it is necessary.” The benefit of Nynaeve being unable to be humble is that she treats the other girls as her responsibility and thus would destroy her life for their well-being. Of course, all three of them are being dramatic and would not be remotely in trouble for actual self-defense. quote:I was Healing before I ever thought of going to Tar Valon, even if I didn’t know I was. But it seems I need my medicines to make it work for me. Nynaeve has quite a few blocks, doesn't she? I don't quite remember when this one goes away. quote:“Let me do all the talking, children,” the Aes Sedai said placidly, pushing her cowl back to reveal gray in her hair. Egwene was not sure how old Verin was; she thought old enough to be a grandmother, but the gray streaks were the Aes Sedai’s only signs of age. At present, Verin is about 150 years old, meaning that she could have a 10 year old great-great-great-great-great-grandchild assuming 20 year generations. She has no children and boy did the White Tower screw themselves over implementing those policies. quote:“Two Tar Valon witches, unless I miss my guess, yes?” he said with a tight smile that pinched his narrow face. Dain Bornhald does in fact miss his guess, as he misses most everything. quote:Verin opened her mouth as if for idle conversation, but before she could speak, Elayne jumped in, voice ringing with command. “I am Elayne, Daughter-Heir of Andor. If you do not move aside at once, you will have Queen Morgase to answer to, Whitecloak!” This is possibly Elayne's biggest moment of stupidity derived from being a sheltered princess in the whole series. Other moments like the veil are more laughable and of course she makes some other big mistakes at points, but she just went from "unremarkable passerby who was going to be harrassed but unharmed" to "high-priority target" and all because she couldn't obey a simple instruction not to talk. quote:There’s no more time to wait, Egwene thought. I will not be chained again! And meanwhile Egwene's trauma is so ingrained that the possibility of violence (the Whitecloaks haven't *actually* done anything yet) immediately sets her off. Poor Egwene. quote:She fought to keep from being overwhelmed, and focused on the ground in front of the Whitecloak officer’s horse. A small patch of ground; she did not want to kill anyone. At least she isn't completely gone, because seriously after the Seanchan you'd hardly blame her for still being in "kill kill kill" mode at the moment. quote:Verin was wide-eyed with astonishment and anger. Her mouth worked furiously, but whatever she might be saying was lost in the thunder. Verin does not get paid enough for this crap. quote:“What you have done is an abomination. An abomination! An Aes Sedai does not use the Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme to defend her life. The Three Oaths—” The Three Oaths don't apply to anyone having this conversation. But this still is slowly setting up the Oaths and the many attitudes that Egwene will have about them going forward. Here they're only an annoyance. quote:“It . . . it was not really using the Power as a weapon, Verin Sedai.” Elayne held her chin high, but her voice shook. “We did not hurt anyone, or even try to hurt anyone. Surely—” The scary thing is, this justification, if believed, would let many Aes Sedai sidestep that particular Oath. No wonder Verin tries to shut it down hard. quote:He was only trying to bully us, child. He knew very well he could not make us go where we did not want, not without more trouble than he was willing to accept. Not here, not in sight of Tar Valon. I could have talked us past him, with a little time and a little patience. Oh, he might well have tried to kill us if he could have done it from hiding, but no Whitecloak with the brains of a goat will try harming an Aes Sedai who knows he is there. And now, after two books of very straightforward good guys vs bad guys, we finally get some of the complications that will run through the rest of the books. Not in the straightforward shades of gray (the Whitecloaks might not be Darkfriends but they're still dangerous assholes), but through Verin pointing out that they're so utterly outmatched that using the Power against them is just hosed. quote:“We have come a long way,” Egwene went on, “all the way from Toman Head, and if I weren’t so tired, I would never have—” Egwene, never content to let someone else be number one, makes a bold play to be the person with the biggest mouth in the party. quote:“My name is Dain Bornhald! Remember it, Darkfriends! I will make you fear my name! Remember my name!” None of these people will ever see you again, Dain, let alone have any reason to fear you. Dude is like an angry dog barking at everyone outside the fence quote:“What did he mean about my mother?” Elayne said suddenly. “He must have been lying. She would never turn against Tar Valon.” That was before they lost her daughter for four months, Elayne, and also before Gaebril, though really I expect that a normal Morgase would still have had issues with Tar Valon over the incident. quote:“Now you must truly be on your guard,” Verin told them. “Now the real danger begins.” Verin's not wrong, since everyone in the White Tower is far more dangerous to the girls than most people outside it. And also the Black Ajah is headquartered here. Not that Verin, the world's least suspicious woman, would know anything about that. Next time: The chapter that contains our first map of Vagina Island!
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May 7, 2024 22:48
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Ravenson posted:There's a post somewhere wherein Sanderson lays out pretty clearly what was his and what was Jordan's and it was mostly his. Jordan did all three prologues (as one prologue), he did Veins of Gold and most of the epilogue (except the Cadsuane part, since Sanderson killed Egwene not Jordan), he did Mat rescuing Moiraine, and maybe a couple of other big moments, but the vast, vast majority of the story was Sanderson. Once Jordan knew he was dying, he turned his efforts primarily to outlining what he could so that someone else would be able to finish the story for him. Egwene and Rand were the most complete, the only note for Perrin was "King of the West", which Sanderson promptly discarded as I will bring up in my reread every time anything that foreshadows Perrin's becoming King of Saldaea, the Two Rivers, Ghealdan, and Amadicia happens. Well I didn't know most of this (I knew the epilogue, obviously). Thanks!
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May 7, 2024 22:48
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Ravenson posted:Jordan was probably still laying groundwork for the finale that didn't happen with her and Galad pairing off after Gawyn's death. I'm not quite sure when that ending plan would have gone away.
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May 8, 2024 00:13
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Nihilarian posted:what? As early idea for Egwene's final fate was that she pair up with Gawyn and get pregnant by him, but he'd die in the Last Battle and Galad would step up and marry her to give his half nibling a dad (doing the right thing, I suppose). Jordan himself had definitely abandoned this plan by his later books, which I think was for the best. Ravenson fucked around with this message at 02:37 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 02:18
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I've been reading a ton of the interviews lately to have extra info as a friend goes through the series for the first time. Sanderson did the majority of Mat in TGS and apologizes a lot for it in between that and ToM. The Tower of Ghenji was all Jordan in ToM but a lot of the stuff before it was Sanderson. Most of Mat in AMoL is Sanderson. Agreeing with the post above for which characters had the most detailed outlines (Perrin didn't have much so most of his stuff is Sanderson, which I think works out fine because he's the easiest to write). I do think Perrin is a pretty complete character at the end of KoD so he likely didn't need as much solo material but...oh well. "It's just a weave" being a great line (and 100% Sanderson) helps me be ok with that. In TGS most of Egwene was written by Jordan, most of Rand was written by Sanderson, but "both of them are in every part." He said several times when people wanted annotated books that sometimes it would be down to the sentence in some areas where part would be Jordan, part him, part Harriet, and part Maria. I think he was likely thinking of a few specific examples for that bit, but there were only a few hundred finished pages. Those sections (Part of each prologue, a chunk of Egwene's stuff in TGS, ToG, the Verin Reveal, the epilogue) remained untouched which is why they might seem a little rougher since they're Jordan's first drafts, and he typically didn't even show Harriet his writing until he was on draft 10 or 12 or something like that.
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May 8, 2024 04:09
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Sanderson did his best work with Egwene and especially Rand. Epic characters doing epic poo poo. Comedy? Not so much.
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May 8, 2024 05:17
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cailleask posted:Actually iirc Jordan wrote most of Mat in all the last books but the issue is they didn’t want to edit his stuff too much post-death so it comes across as pretty rough. Sanderson specifically said he worked on Mat after the TGS criticism, though. There is no planet where I would ever believe Jordan wrote most of Mat in TGS. The difference is just too stark, and he uses too many of Sanderson's mannerisms and sayings. EDIT: The Tumblr blog made a point, and I think it gets to the heart of things. Jordan wrote Mat as funny not because he was a particularly funny character, but through dramatic irony. Sanderson doesn't really do dramatic irony*...so he defaulted to trying to make Mat funny, complete with Witty Banter (which required Talmanes to change dramatically and become a banter sounding board). This change is very stark and jarring to readers used to the original Mat. *Not faulting Sanderson, here...just different writing styles. Devorum fucked around with this message at 05:50 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 05:43
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Devorum posted:Sanderson specifically said he worked on Mat after the TGS criticism, though. There is no planet where I would ever believe Jordan wrote most of Mat in TGS. The difference is just too stark, and he uses too many of Sanderson's mannerisms and sayings. I never really "got" how clear Sanderson's fingerprints on Matt were until I started reading his own books. Sure, it was clear there was a divide between Sanderson and Jordan there. I just didn't see how very Sanderson specific it was until I read some of the more twee/YA characters he had written.
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May 8, 2024 19:37
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Sandersons characters tend to be anime MCU quip machines. I’m going to assume he does this because he’s a very boring white Mormon boy who hasn’t had any real trauma to pull from in life.
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May 8, 2024 19:51
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Invalid Validation posted:Sandersons characters tend to be anime MCU quip machines. I’m going to assume he does this because he’s a very boring white Mormon boy who hasn’t had any real trauma to pull from in life. he's also a huge nerd, so there's a lot of influence from other fantasy books, movies, games, etc. but yeah, he's clearly never had to actually had to rough it, been in a dive bar, or had people shoot in his general direction.
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May 8, 2024 20:25
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I think I caught a few Sandersonisms while reading Mat but the one that stood out the most is the way he has his hayseed, non-book-smart characters use the word "right" in dialect- as in "I sure am right stupid!" Pretty sure I saw that one with Wayne from Mistborn and some of the rural Bavlander characters from Stormlight too. Or maybe that was just the other characters stereotyping the Bavlanders which makes it self-referential and therefore good? I'm not exactly sure how to describe the Two Rivers voice (any ideas?) but their grammar and sentence structure seem like they hew close to a middle-aged, pipe-smoking Hobbit even at their most emotional or desperate. Mat always came across as extremely capable and a fast talker even though he didn't ascribe to classical education so seeing him, for example, cast about in his mind trying to find the right words to describe his boots philosophy or writing that "funny" letter to Elayne seemed somewhat off. Normal Mat humor is that other letter he writes to her while they're looking for the Bowl that isn't full of spelling mistakes and bewilders her because she can't tell if he knows everything, anything, or nothing about what's going on.
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May 9, 2024 00:18
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We've got a few more actors, no confirmed roles but some basic speculation. Looks like a few Aiel at least? https://www.wotseries.com/2024/05/09/clare-dunne-and-three-more-actors-uncovered-for-season-3-of-the-wheel-of-time/
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May 9, 2024 18:06
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The Dragon Reborn Chapter 11: Tar Valon Thoughts This chapter has the Flame of Tar Valon icon because it's about Tar Valon. Also let's all take one last chance to giggle at the map. Let's hope that the Ogier Grove isn't the metaphysical equivalent of a herpes sore. quote:A square of pikemen marched along the streets, ranks and files bristling like a carding comb, followed by bowmen in flat, rimmed helmets, with filled quivers riding at their hips and bows slanted across their chests. A squadron of armored horsemen, faces hidden behind the steel bars of their helmets, gave way to Verin and her party at a wave of their officer’s gauntleted hand. It's rather ironic that Siuan's increasing the security of the island and its nearby villages in her last few months in office since of course absolutely none of them will be able to do anything about the real threat to the Tower once it arrives. quote:Just the same, the balding man seemed to be taking his time about making sure each one had a right to enter Tar Valon before he let them go. Is this just the man's actual nature, or is it a sign that Mesaana has arrived in Tar Valon and is corrupting the populace? quote:They say there’s a new false Dragon out west somewhere. Why, they even say he has Artur Hawkwing’s armies, back from the dead, following him, and that he killed a lot of Whitecloaks and destroyed a city—Falme, they call it—in Tarabon, some say. Frankly it's good that the truth is at least vaguely recognizable in this, when absolutely none of it IS true. quote:Things had changed, and not for the better. When she had left Tar Valon, any man who spoke against Aes Sedai would have been lucky to escape with a punch in the nose from whoever overheard. Again, is this Mesaana's doing? If not, then what's got the people who have the least business hating Aes Sedai so negative? The Whitecloaks aren't that convincing... though perhaps the troube with Elayne after so much else has gone wrong or weird has people losing their patience. quote:If she ever returned to Emond’s Field—the “if” hurt, but she had to be honest—if she returned, it would be to visit, to see her parents. She never does and I'm still a bit angry at Sanderson for it. Jordan would certainly have expected her to return at some point, if only to visit Perrin. quote:Great buildings and small, in stone of every color, looking like shells, or waves, or wind-sculpted cliffs, flowing and fanciful, captured from nature or the flights of men’s minds. The dwellings, the inns, the very stables—even the most insignificant buildings in Tar Valon had been made for beauty. Ogier stonemasons had built most of the city in the long years after the Breaking of the World, and they maintained it had been their finest work. Jordan dedicates so much space to how beautiful the city is that I have to share a little of it. It's a shame we don't get to enjoy Tar Valon more. quote:“I always expect trouble,” Verin replied placidly, “and so should you. In the Tower most of all. You must all of you be more careful than ever, now. Your . . . tricks”—her mouth tightened for an instant before serenity returned—“frightened away the Whitecloaks, but inside the Tower they may well bring you death or stilling.” Verin is doing her best to warn the girls about the Black Ajah within the confines of the three oaths she's sworn. quote:“I cannot waste a day, Verin Sedai. Not another hour. I must return to Shienar, to tell King Easar, and Lord Agelmar, the truth of what happened at Falme. I must tell them about—” He cut off abruptly and looked around. Yes Hurin, if you don't make a mad dash north then how will the monarchs of the Borderlands spend seventy-two books abandoning their posts to fulfill the world's lamest prophecy? quote:He was only a man, and helpless as a babe when it came to facing whatever might await them in the Tower. Yet his leaving made their number one less, and she could never help thinking that a man with a sword was useful to have around. And he had been a link to Rand, and Perrin. You never hear about stuff like this in the big Egwene hatedom lists, about how she misses Rand and Perrin so intently she'll cling on to some dude who is only a loose connection to them for the sake of feeling closer to them. quote:Verin was already riding through the gates as he spoke. She rode as if there were no hurry. Verin knows there isn't a hurry. She knows Mat's ta'veren and that the Pattern is weaving itself around him. She probably would have been much more concerned if she was getting to Tar Valon and was under the impression that Mat still had days to spare instead of hours because that would suggest that the Pattern was going to find a way to use them. quote:As the horses were led away into the stable, Verin took the leather sack from Mat’s feet and tucked it carelessly under one arm. And again we see the proof that Verin is an incredible actress who could fool the Black Ajah for decades. Any of the girls would hold the bag with fear and reverence and thus make it clear to anyone who came to them that the bag was important, but anyone who sees Verin with it will probably assume she found a bunch of old books in a ditch somewhere and had to read them. quote:“We did not—” Egwene began, but Verin cut her off with a sharp, “BE SILENT!” Verin stared at her—at each of the three of them—as if the intensity of her look could hold their mouths shut. Objectively speaking, it can and it does. quote:“I suppose,” Verin said, “that the whole Tower knows we have returned by now?” See what I mean? Moiraine is crazy for thinking Min can make an unremarkable entrance. quote:“Not a word, Verin Sedai said, and not a word shall it be. If one of you speaks—except to answer an Aes Sedai, of course—I’ll make you wish you had nothing but a switching and a few hours scrubbing floors to worry about. Do you understand me?” I don't know if Sheriam knows Verin is Black - obviously the cell structure is meant to stop would-be Verins from dismantling the organization from within - but if she does she's probably being extra thorough to enforce her rule on the assumption that it's part of their evil scheming. quote:And you three, who have more ability born in you than I ever hoped to see in my lifetime, left the Tower without permission, ran away not even half-trained, like irresponsible children, stayed away for months. It's a pretty lovely thing to do to these girls's reputation to try and pretend that the Black Ajah doesn't exist, and of course it soon becomes a completely pointless gesture anyway. The Light side's efforts to engage in shadows and secrecy never really come to much for some thematic reason or another, bar Moiraine's mostly offscreen quest. quote:“Give over, Faolain,” another of the Accepted said. The oldest of the three, she had a willowy neck and coppery skin, and a graceful way of moving. “I will take you,” she told Nynaeve. Our first introduction to Faolain and Theodrin! Rather funny that Egwene will use them to justify her own policies, considering how they meet. I always thought they were gonna get involved in something bigger towards the end, but they stay relatively bit players and that's probably for the best. quote:Egwene returned Faolain’s stare with as much calm as she could manage, and, she hoped, a measure of the haughty, silent contempt that Elayne had adopted. Red Ajah, she thought. This one will definitely choose the Reds. She chooses Blue. Next time: A Siuan POV!
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May 9, 2024 20:49
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pik_d posted:We've got a few more actors, no confirmed roles but some basic speculation. Looks like a few Aiel at least? Second one could be a Brigitte, maybe a recast?
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May 9, 2024 21:35
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canepazzo posted:Second one could be a Brigitte, maybe a recast? Maybe. They already said the actress that had for Birgitte was a stand in since she didn't have any lines, and would be replaced when it came time to use her as an actual character.
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May 9, 2024 21:52
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I’ve decided this series will consume all of my 2025. And having just held the first book in hardcover, I’m scared.
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May 10, 2024 03:33
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A Sneaker Broker posted:I’ve decided this series will consume all of my 2025. And having just held the first book in hardcover, I’m scared. This thread doesn’t have the same spoiler policy as the Sanderson thread, so be wary of reading too much here. That said, please pop in regularly as you progress to make predictions and comment on what you enjoyed/disliked. It’s a heckuva ride; enjoy it!
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May 10, 2024 03:37
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A Sneaker Broker posted:I’ve decided this series will consume all of my 2025. And having just held the first book in hardcover, I’m scared. we have a thread for first time readers around here somewhere if you want to avoid spoilers.
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May 10, 2024 03:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:we have a thread for first time readers around here somewhere if you want to avoid spoilers. I’ll avoid them all. I’ll only be popping in to give my thoughts when the time comes and ducking out immediately.
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May 10, 2024 03:39
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This is the thread you want https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3983558&pagenumber=23&perpage=40
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May 10, 2024 04:41
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A Sneaker Broker posted:I’ve decided this series will consume all of my 2025. And having just held the first book in hardcover, I’m scared. Be aware, the first book is significantly different than the rest of the series, and the tone and scope changes after about the third and sixth books The first book is explicitly meant (among other goals) as an homage to Lord of the Rings, "what if Gandalf was a woman?" Some people mistake this as a boring copy, but it's the only book that's like that If you actually don't like it you probably won't like the whole series, but if you're just mildly annoyed it's good to know it was just a one time thing. The most crucial thing to understand is that Jordan is great at dramatic irony and unreliable narration - you can't 100% believe everything the current narrator is telling you, especially about themselves. This is a big part of the fun of the books for me, realizing how these characters are deluding themselves and what they're thinking doesn't align with reality.
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May 10, 2024 13:28
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DarkHorse posted:The most crucial thing to understand is that Jordan is great at dramatic irony and unreliable narration - you can't 100% believe everything the current narrator is telling you, especially about themselves. This is a big part of the fun of the books for me, realizing how these characters are deluding themselves and what they're thinking doesn't align with reality. I'd also emphasize here that the third-person narrator is virtually always in-character from whichever head you are currently riding around inside - it isn't an omniscient third-party as is common in a lot of books with multiple viewpoints.
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May 10, 2024 15:38
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There's one conversation in particular that really stands out to me as just fantastic writing, and it's in the first book when Rand sees Thom and Moiraine interact for the first time. Thom is a gleeman, a talented performer and entertainer of skill that would rarely venture to the backwater area the story starts, and Moiraine is a rich and high class lady who likewise is a rare sight in the country. quote:Abruptly the flow of words and the juggling alike stopped. Thom simply snatched the balls Spoilers for stuff revealed much later in the series Rand takes the conversation between them at face value, but each sentence and interaction between the other two is clearly laden with meaning. Both instantly recognize the other for what they are: Thom is a former Court performer and lover of Queen Morgase and crafty schemer known to resent Aes Sedai, while Moiraine is an Aes Sedai in a region that treats them with suspicion if not outright hostility. Their conversation makes it clear: "I know who you are; you know who I am. I can make your life hell, but you can make mine suck as well. Are we going to have a problem? No? Then let's agree to stay out of each other's way." Rand just wonders why Thom stopped juggling and acted a little weird.
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May 10, 2024 15:53
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I still love that scene a lot
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May 10, 2024 16:03
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That's the scene that lets you know a reread is gonna be worthwhile.
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May 10, 2024 16:06
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It also makes it clear they're gonna bone
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May 10, 2024 16:18
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Rarity posted:It also makes it clear they're gonna bone That quote alone doesn't reveal that, you need the context of other scenes and interactions, but yeah they gonna bone I absolutely missed it my first read through but if you know it's there you can pick it up
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May 10, 2024 16:22
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Is it ever explicitly explained how Moraine knows the face of the man she will love? I realized that I remembered that detail, and her stating it very directly, but I don't remember if it came from her Trials, or the Finn, or just maybe a girlhood fancy for the hot bard that was banging her distant relation.
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May 10, 2024 18:39
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NeurosisHead posted:Is it ever explicitly explained how Moraine knows the face of the man she will love? I realized that I remembered that detail, and her stating it very directly, but I don't remember if it came from her Trials, or the Finn, or just maybe a girlhood fancy for the hot bard that was banging her distant relation. It's never explicitly stated but since she says this to the gals after meeting the Finn I think it's best to assume it comes from there. Min never shows any knowledge about this subject (since she only says there's one Moiraine-related viewing that didn't come true after her "death" and it's not Thom). The Trials don't show certainties, only possibilities, so being married to a man in there wouldn't mean anything to Moiraine.
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May 10, 2024 18:47
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NeurosisHead posted:Is it ever explicitly explained how Moraine knows the face of the man she will love? I realized that I remembered that detail, and her stating it very directly, but I don't remember if it came from her Trials, or the Finn, or just maybe a girlhood fancy for the hot bard that was banging her distant relation. Interview after AMOL says it was one of Min's revelations she told Moraine about which fits because she explicitly thinks back to it as the only vision she ever had that didn't come true during the period everyone thought Moraine was dead. Ravenson posted:It's never explicitly stated but since she says this to the gals after meeting the Finn I think it's best to assume it comes from there. Min never shows any knowledge about this subject (since she only says there's one Moiraine-related viewing that didn't come true after her "death" and it's not Thom). The Trials don't show certainties, only possibilities, so being married to a man in there wouldn't mean anything to Moiraine. I thought it was explicitly the viewing about Thom and Moraine that Min was thinking about? Let me dig up the quote. Edit: Yeah, the viewing she's thinking about is that Rand will surely fail without Moraine (who is the woman dead and gone). And it sticks in her mind for a moment because it also involved the only viewing she ever had that didn't come true. The implication here is that she's thinking about the Moraine/Thom marriage viewing (which has failed from her POV since Moraine is dead) and a separate viewing about Rand that predicts he'll fail without Moraine's support in the Last Battle. Zore fucked around with this message at 18:59 on May 10, 2024 |
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May 10, 2024 18:53
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Zore posted:I thought it was explicitly the viewing about Thom and Moraine that Min was thinking about? Let me dig up the quote. Well crap. This is why I'm doing a reread, I suppose! (Who's the Dragon Reborn again? Is it Elayne?)
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May 10, 2024 21:35
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DarkHorse posted:There's one conversation in particular that really stands out to me as just fantastic writing, and it's in the first book when Rand sees Thom and Moiraine interact for the first time. Thom is a gleeman, a talented performer and entertainer of skill that would rarely venture to the backwater area the story starts, and Moiraine is a rich and high class lady who likewise is a rare sight in the country. They go on to have this exact same conversation except explicitly, in book 4, and I've always likened that one to a bamboo forest wuxia fight between the two love interests, before they get down and bone
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May 10, 2024 21:53
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Hey timewasters, quick question. Should I read the book that is the prologue to the entire Series before I read book one? Have to ask as TWoT is being moved up my TBR.
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May 18, 2024 05:26
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No it spoils some stuff.
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May 18, 2024 06:05
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A Sneaker Broker posted:Hey timewasters, quick question. Should I read the book that is the prologue to the entire Series before I read book one? Have to ask as TWoT is being moved up my TBR. No. Read it after the series, or after book 10.
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May 18, 2024 06:07
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A Sneaker Broker posted:Hey timewasters, quick question. Should I read the book that is the prologue to the entire Series before I read book one? Have to ask as TWoT is being moved up my TBR. Are you talking about New Spring? That's certainly a book set before the series proper, but it's a prequel, not a prologue, and definitely not intended to onboard new readers. It gives perspective to people and stuff you don't have perspective on to start. You're free to do whatever of course, and I've heard fair enough arguments about starting with it, but that wouldn't be my recommendation. RandomReader fucked around with this message at 06:17 on May 18, 2024 |
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May 18, 2024 06:12
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RandomReader posted:Not sure which story you're talking about specifically, but for the most part I'd personally say no, unless you're somehow talking about Dragonmount. Points in favour of reading New Spring first:
Points against reading New Spring first:
So pick your poison, as it were.
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May 20, 2024 09:21
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No series is ever improved by reading it out of publication order unless you're deliberately skipping entries deemed too terrible to bother with at all. But anyway, I'm back and I'd never skip a chapter! The Dragon Reborn: Chapter 12: The Amyrlin Seat Thoughts This chapter starts with the Flame of Tar Valon icon because it's a POV of the very flame herself: Siuan. quote:For the hundredth time since being told that Verin had returned, she readjusted her stole on her shoulders without realizing what she was doing. It's funny that it no longer quite fits her now that her successor Egwene is in the Tower. IIRC, her other successor is present as well... quote:A small Tairen rug lay in front of the table, woven in simple patterns of blue and brown and gold. A single drawing, tiny fishing boats among reeds, hung above the fireplace. Half a dozen stands held open books about the floor. That was all. Even the lamps would not have been out of place in a farmer’s house. Siuan parallels with Rand quite well here, two leaders of the world who came from low places and prefer simple lives. quote:The tall Aes Sedai, as tall as most men, was second only to the Amyrlin in the White Tower, and though Siuan had known her since they were novices together, sometimes Leane’s insistence on upholding the dignity of the Amyrlin Seat was enough to make Siuan want to scream. On the other hand, we get hints that Siuan isn't a perfect leader. Considering that Egwene's arc is all about upholding the dignity of her position even in the lowest of circumstances - and that it ends specifically on "belief and order lend strength", Siuan's chafing against Leane's respect is something of a mark against her. quote:“Begin where you will,” Siuan said. “These rooms are warded, in case anyone thinks to use childhood tricks of eavesdropping.” Verin’s eyebrows lifted in surprise, and the Amyrlin added, “Much has changed since you left. Speak.” A little foreshadowing of how badly things have gone offpage. quote:Mazrim Taim is in the hands of our sisters in Saldaea, and the poor fellow in Haddon Mirk, the Light have pity on his soul, was taken by the Tairens and executed on the spot. No one even seems to know what his name was. Both were taken on the same day and, according to rumor, under the same circumstances. I love the lampshading, poor Tairen bastard. I suspect that the suddenness of the falls of these False Dragons has a great deal to do with how poorly this particular iteration of the Third Age is doing against the Shadow: barely enough time for fate to squeeze them in even though at least Taim is necessary to the Pattern and as soon as Rand gets moving reality literally tosses them aside. In other turnings of the Wheel, the falls of the last False Dragons probably happen a little slower than the speed of causality. quote:“What do you mean? He is to fight Tarmon Gai’don. The Horn is to summon dead heroes from the grave to fight in the Last Battle. Has Moiraine once again made some new plan without consulting me?” We see again how communication is breaking down among the light; Moiraine has made very few plans except when she's been desperately trying to patch the main plan together while Rand and the Shadow are busy tearing it apart. Yet still Siuan blames her due to the distance and time separating the pair of them. quote:“So long as Mat lives,” Verin went on, “the Horn of Valere is no more than a horn to anyone else. If he dies, of course, another can sound it and forge a new link between man and Horn.” Her gaze was steady and untroubled by what she seemed to be suggesting. Of course, just because Siuan isn't a perfect Amyrlin or fully trusting of Moiraine doesn't mean she's evil either. It would be a lot easier for the Tower if Mat were to die that very day - and under the circumstances, few would even think it a deliberate failure of the Aes Sedai. But Siuan keeps Mat alive just the same. quote:“An apt metaphor, Mother, the lionfish. Once I saw a large shark that a lionfish had chased into the shallows, where it died.” Verin wasted her life researching the Black Ajah. She should have taught Egwene how to tear Siuan's fish metaphors to shreds instead. quote:“That is already causing us trouble, Verin, and will cause more as the stories spread, and grow with the spreading. But I can do nothing about that. I am told these people are gone, Daughter. Do you have any evidence otherwise?” This is another big mistake of Siuan's, as the Seanchan will indeed return very quickly, take a huge chunk of the inhabited continent, and enslave plenty of Aes Sedai and other channeling women before things are over. But we're nowhere near that yet. Next time: Siuan interviews the Wondergirls!
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May 20, 2024 22:21
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Ravenson posted:Of course, just because Siuan isn't a perfect Amyrlin or fully trusting of Moiraine doesn't mean she's evil either. It would be a lot easier for the Tower if Mat were to die that very day - and under the circumstances, few would even think it a deliberate failure of the Aes Sedai. But Siuan keeps Mat alive just the same. Actually, just kinda in general, I think it's really interesting to consider that Mat is the only of the three ta'veren to get anywhere near the Tower itself until the very end of the series. While the Wondergirls are probably kinda like honourary ta'veren due to being eddies in Rand's current and so you can't discount them, it's very likely that a lot of the Tower plotline is attributable to Mat being here right now.
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May 21, 2024 04:18
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