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Part of trans erasure is prioritizing explanations of reasons to doubt any and all given historical figures being trans, all the reasons (which are real and true) that everyone in particular was almost certainly being slandered, over even acknowledging a hint of possibility alongside it that "trans people, or something we would consider trans today, might have actually existed" like yeah those reasons exist but the possibility of trans-esque existence in the past also exists. just acknowledging that. many people refuse to acknowledge that.
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May 8, 2021 13:24
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If nothing else, accusing someone of being trans as a form of slander at least indicates trans is a thing you could be.
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May 8, 2021 13:27
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It's impossible to know what Elagabalus actually felt or thought and we likely never will, unless there's a secret unmentioned diary in some papal basement. If their memory inspires trans people then good imo. Life is for the living, and everybody else gets long-dead assholes to worship without any controversy.
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May 8, 2021 13:32
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Magna Kaser posted:They had unlimited vacation like a million san francisco startups and tech companies, but found that almost no one took any time off at all. Now they require people to take (at least) 20 days a year off. They also have said they have rules about no emails/work talk after 5pm on Friday and generally seems to be a p OK place to work--or at least I would like to have either of those things in any job lol I understand the principle, but cloacamazing's use of scare quotes around "discover" seemed to imply this was an intentional scheme to minimize time off, a theory somewhat contradicted by the change to mandatory time off. My misunderstanding isn't really worth a derail though.
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May 8, 2021 13:37
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InediblePenguin posted:Part of trans erasure is prioritizing explanations of reasons to doubt any and all given historical figures being trans, all the reasons (which are real and true) that everyone in particular was almost certainly being slandered, over even acknowledging a hint of possibility alongside it that "trans people, or something we would consider trans today, might have actually existed" There's better examples of that than a Roman emperor who has been dead for seventeen centuries known through their detractors' "Obama is a secret Muslim"-level depictions. Vincent Van Goatse has a new favorite as of 13:42 on May 8, 2021 |
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May 8, 2021 13:40
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Tenebrais posted:If nothing else, accusing someone of being trans as a form of slander at least indicates trans is a thing you could be. Accusing someone of being a woman, not of being trans, it’s our modern culture that has this restrictive Cis and trans binary - the Ancient Greek and Roman cultures had a radically different view of gender than we do today, which is expected for cultures that included eunuchs and pre-pubescent boys being treated as girls. It’s just not something our modern brains are going to be able to comprehend.
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May 8, 2021 13:42
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Yeah, trying to map modern notions of gender onto people from thousands of years ago who we only know from fragmentary accounts written at third or fourth hand is... not going to produce results that can't be gainsayed.
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May 8, 2021 13:47
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Trying to wrap your head around Sporus and what gender they were and what they considered themselves to be is impossible Trigger warning on this one: Nero was batshit insane. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporus
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May 8, 2021 13:51
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Yeah for basically any emperor we know nothing about them on a personal level. All our info comes from outsiders looking in. It’s the same for a lot of kings really
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May 8, 2021 14:03
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TinTower posted:She literally offered half the Empire to any surgeon willing to give her a vagina and historians will still say with a straight face that she was cis. In fairness to the Praetorian Guard, they killed a lot of emperors.
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May 8, 2021 15:03
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BigglesSWE posted:Also keep in mind that ideas of gender did not exist in the same way as we have them today.
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May 8, 2021 15:31
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? They are not wrong though, the roman’s viewpoint of gender is something that takes years of study in both history and gender studies just to comprehend. I mean, both the Romans and Greeks had no problem believing that their gods could turn into animals and impregnate humans, so our 2021 brains are going to have problems unpacking that one for a start.
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May 8, 2021 15:42
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Blackula Vs. Tarantula posted:I understand the principle, but cloacamazing's use of scare quotes around "discover" seemed to imply this was an intentional scheme to minimize time off, a theory somewhat contradicted by the change to mandatory time off. My misunderstanding isn't really worth a derail though. I just meant that I was sceptical they didn't already know what would happen when the gave their workers unlimited PTO. Making vacations mandatory again was a good thing.
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May 8, 2021 15:45
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Cloacamazing! posted:“So that means nobody ever gets compensated for working overtime and God help you if you try to leave on time?". That’s every salaried job and why I would never take a position that’s not paid by the hour.
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May 8, 2021 15:51
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After the fall of the Titans, Prometheus sculpted humanity out of clay. This took a long time, even for a god, and when he was nearing the end, Dionysus, God of Wine, came by and convinced him to take a break. Prometheus got absolutely smashed at the Olympian party and staggered back to his quarters, where he finished the project but accidentally stuck some lady parts on men and male parts on ladies. Feeling responsible, Dionysus assumed patronage for these people.
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May 8, 2021 15:53
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Ugly In The Morning posted:That’s every salaried job and why I would never take a position that’s not paid by the hour. I'd commit murder to get a salary instead of working 39.959 hours every week
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May 8, 2021 15:55
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learnincurve posted:? They are not wrong though, the roman’s viewpoint of gender is something that takes years of study in both history and gender studies just to comprehend. For a cool historical trans figure, I always like Dr. James Barry. He initially started presenting and living as a man to be able to go through medical school, but at the end of his schooling, instead of taking his degree down to South America and going back to living as a woman (as he would have been able to still use his degree as an openly female doctor there), he doubled down and continued to live and work as a man in various parts of the British empire, rising to the second-highest medical rank in the British Army. His will was very clear about the fact that he was to be buried in the clothes he died in with no further inspection of his body, and if people had respected his wishes, we'd never have known about him as a queer historical figure. Unfortunately, as is too often the case, someone decided to 'helpfully' clean his body and then raised a huge stink when she didn't find what she expected. She tried to get money from Barry's good friend and personal physician, and when he refused to pay her she went and leaked things to the press, causing a huge scandal. The British Army responded by sealing all records of Barry for 100 years.
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May 8, 2021 16:11
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'd commit murder to get a salary instead of working 39.959 hours every week So when's basic training start for the police this year?
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May 8, 2021 16:12
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Fatty Crabcakes posted:Who had this on their bingo card? I struggle to see how my statement could be construed as anything but asking for people to not subscribe to the distant past and it’s inhabitants the thoughts and ideologies of today. Which is to say, entirely reasonable if one has even an inkling of an interest to look at the past in the context it existed in. We’re talking well over a thousand years before our time.
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May 8, 2021 16:34
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'd commit murder to get a salary instead of working 39.959 hours every week You don’t kill someone for that kind of thing, you have to make a wish on a cursed monkey paw.
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May 8, 2021 16:40
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learnincurve posted:? They are not wrong though, the roman’s viewpoint of gender is something that takes years of study in both history and gender studies just to comprehend. Not that I believe that to be the case here, but this argument is frequently paired with cockeyed notions about the inherent modernity of the phenomenon—from being an effect of decadence or moral decline in authoritarian philosophies to some sort of social contagion such as ROGD in less blatantly authoritarian philosophies, right on down to theories about fluoride and phthalates and 5g and soybeans and whatever mystery chemical is turnin the friggin frogs gay. Can it be said that there is a 1:1 correlation between a trans person in the modern west and a trans person in 2nd century Italy? No. Does that mean that there weren't any? gently caress no. I guess congratulations on knowing that Frankenstein is the name of the guy who made the monster, but frankly it's not a very interesting argument and not just because every motherfucker in earth seems to think they're the first one to trot it out.
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May 8, 2021 16:42
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It’s super important to note that this isn’t terfery it’s simply there is too much “we don’t know” and it’s because of the ultimate patriarchy. This was a culture that lasted 1400 years, who documented everything through the eyes of high status men - we know they saw women and eunuchs as lesser beings, but not what the women and eunuchs believed and it’s dangerous to take those men’s word as absolute truth.
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May 8, 2021 16:48
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redgubbinz posted:So when's basic training start for the police this year? woah I'm an rear end in a top hat but not that much of an rear end in a top hat
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May 8, 2021 16:49
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BigglesSWE posted:I struggle to see how my statement could be construed as anything but asking for people to not subscribe to the distant past and it’s inhabitants the thoughts and ideologies of today.
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May 8, 2021 16:51
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What’s a JAQer? Google is giving me nothin’.
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May 8, 2021 16:52
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Ugly In The Morning posted:What’s a JAQer? Google is giving me nothin’. I'm guessing it stands for "Just Asking Questions," referring to people who question the established facts in an attempt to push their own narrative without actually revealing they have their own narrative.
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May 8, 2021 16:55
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Fatty Crabcakes posted:When people start throwing"ideology" around in terms of trans issues, I start to get antsy. If you don't know why, then perhaps you should recuse yourself from the conversation until such time as you do, because god damnit you have no idea how many JAQers and other sundry dinguses I have had this conversation with. Except that in this case they very much aren't JAQing off, you have to study cultures of the past on their own terms if you want to reach useful historical conclusions, especially when they existed two thousand years ago. This is basic historiographic practice.
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May 8, 2021 16:55
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CaptianKatsura posted:I'm guessing it stands for "Just Asking Questions," referring to people who question the established facts in an attempt to push their own narrative without actually revealing they have their own narrative. That makes sense. This whole topic is a bit of a minefield so I’d just like to toss a “keep it civil, please” out there. It’s been fine so far!
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May 8, 2021 16:59
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PetraCore posted:
learnincurve posted:It’s super important to note that this isn’t terfery it’s simply there is too much “we don’t know” and it’s because of the ultimate patriarchy.
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May 8, 2021 17:02
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Except that in this case they very much aren't JAQing off, you have to study cultures of the past on their own terms if you want to reach useful historical conclusions, especially when they existed two thousand years ago. This is basic historiographic practice. I read it as they were saying “we can’t answer questions”
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May 8, 2021 17:03
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Except that in this case they very much aren't JAQing off, you have to study cultures of the past on their own terms if you want to reach useful historical conclusions, especially when they existed two thousand years ago. This is basic historiographic practice.
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May 8, 2021 17:06
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CaptianKatsura posted:I'm guessing it stands for "Just Asking Questions," referring to people who question the established facts in an attempt to push their own narrative without actually revealing they have their own narrative. And the problem with applying this to a discussion of Roman society is that there's precious few established facts beyond basic names and dates (and in some cases not even those). People spend their entire careers writing about what can potentially be learned for individual source documents because almost without exception they all have their own internal biases and points of view that are in some cases impossible to determine because of the paucity of surviving material. In the case of some mid-300s emperors the sole remaining source is the Historia Augusta, which is known to historians to be largely fictional (or fictionalized) although its purpose is totally unknown (Is it a parody historical account or a pastiche of a historian or a work of alternate history? We don't loving know.) Another example is the Notitia Dignitatum, which is apparently a listing of the Roman Army's units during the early fifth century (it's not known exactly when in the fifth century, which is a very important caveat). That's clear from the text, but what isn't clear is the Notitia's relation to the actual condition of the Roman Army. How many of the units mentioned actually existed as described? It's impossible to know because there are no other existing sources to check it against. Vincent Van Goatse has a new favorite as of 17:13 on May 8, 2021 |
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May 8, 2021 17:08
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Charlemagne was faked because the French wanted their own grail myths. Is the only conspiracy theory I believe.
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May 8, 2021 17:11
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Another TERF has thrown their hat into the ring: https://twitter.com/rosemcgowan/status/1390451128324837376?s=19 
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May 8, 2021 17:13
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I would hope nobody is suggesting that trans people didn't exist thousands of years ago, just that conceptions of gender as a social construct shift through time and that smearing rivals or unpopular people by suggesting they took part in shocking sexual behavior has also been around forever, and what's considered shocking sexual behavior is really culture-dependent. I don't think people are saying that it's impossible Elagabalus was a trans woman, just that the only sources we have about their behavior as such are extremely politically slanted and thus suspect. It's quite possible those sources are gross, bad-faith distortions of actual gender-affirming behavior, but we just don't know?
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May 8, 2021 17:13
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Man I wish right-wingers had never learned the term "gaslighting"
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May 8, 2021 17:15
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Yes, and at the same time they weren't inscrutable or inherently alien. And again, we're talking about perceptions and how those perceptions influenced expression, not the thing being perceived. Unless the assertion is being made that this is an entirely modern phenomenon and not one that is perceived differently, such as The Gay Man as a concept, just seems like a bit of pointless pedantic dickwaving.
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May 8, 2021 17:20
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PetraCore posted:I don't think people are saying that it's impossible Elagabalus was a trans woman, just that the only sources we have about their behavior as such are extremely politically slanted and thus suspect. It's quite possible those sources are gross, bad-faith distortions of actual gender-affirming behavior, but we just don't know? This is what people are actually trying to say. There's no way to conclusively determine Elagabalus's gender identity because an objective source on the matter (say, Elagabalus's own thoughts on the subject) simply doesn't exist. All we have are writings based on the testimony of people who didn't like them at all, and they were prone to exaggerate and defame their enemies with the grossest possible lies about their behavior, of which non-gender conforming behavior was a favorite (another example was a long-standing rumor that Julius Caesar was a bottom, which was the shameful way to do gay sex in Classical Rome because men should penetrate, not be penetrated). Elagabalus may very well have been what we now call transgender if the sources that claim he offered half the empire for reassignment surgery are correct, but this is something we cannot be certain is true. Saying that they were known to be transgender is an exaggeration of the available evidence based on a naive reading of the sources for their life. Vincent Van Goatse has a new favorite as of 17:23 on May 8, 2021 |
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May 8, 2021 17:20
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When you think about it, paying a gang to write slurs and lies about someone you don’t like on walls is basically Twitter.
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May 8, 2021 17:20
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:This is what people are actually trying to say. There's no way to conclusively determine Elagabalus's gender identity because an objective source on the matter (say, Elagabalus's own thoughts on the subject) simply doesn't exist. All we have are writings based on the testimony of people who didn't like them at all, and they were prone to exaggerate and defame their enemies with the grossest possible lies about their behavior, of which non-gender conforming behavior was a favorite (another example was a long-standing rumor that Julius Caesar was a bottom, which was the shameful way to do gay sex in Classical Rome because men should penetrate, not be penetrated). It's very frustrating and I'm sorry for taking that frustration out on others but cheese and crackers, if people knew. Like literally, the historicity of trans people is something I've discussed at great length and a not-insubstantial percent of the time I've gotten some version of "you can't discuss ancient people in modern contexts" from people who somewhere along the lines reconstruct some elementary of terfery from first principles because they have a limited notion of what the modern contexts are. Ellie Crabcakes has a new favorite as of 17:41 on May 8, 2021 |
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May 8, 2021 17:35
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