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HerraS
Apr 15, 2012

Looking professional when committing genocide is essential. This is mostly achieved by using a beret.

Olive drab colour ensures the genocider will remain hidden from his prey until it's too late for them to do anything.





Reinhardt is a loser rear end baby who decided to throw a tantrum and break everyone's toys because "mah sister". Imagine if someone tried to convince Yang that letting two million people get nuked for propaganda purposes was the correct choice and what his response would be. Gold-haired pissbrain goes "aww geeze oh man should I let a planetful of people get atomized to make my job a little easier". gently caress him, rest in piss.

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HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Fivemarks posted:

I really want to like LOGH. I really, really want to like it. But the series' Pro-monarchy, anti-democratic message puts me off it way too much. Like, I love the music and the presentation of the original OVA, but man gently caress Monarchy, even when its 'enlightened'.

Considering the foundation of the backstory is "Space Hitler literally happened", along with "he got in power via populism", really just says "populism bad" rather than "democracy bad" or "fascism good". All of the foils to that idea come in through merit, and most of the ones who do so die because of the monarchists or the populists and whatnot.

And it's not pro-Reinhardt. It's more pro-Reinhardt's choice of people. Very few of Reinhardt's actions come from his mind, it's mostly his staff, which is why he wanted Yang so bad.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Reinhardt is never really in control of his empire. He's a brilliant strategist, and a genius at commanding loyalty, but the show never shows him govern much beyond removing obstructionist nobility. As soon as he does so industrial and business interests almost immediately fill the void.

The people who accumulate power under Reinhardt aren't the admirals like Oskar von Reuenthal, they're administrators and managers like Bruno Silberberch.

As far as anyone wins, it's Fezzan.

Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 19, 2020

Under 15
Jan 6, 2005

Mr. Helsbecter will you please stop shooting I am on the phone

Pomp posted:

I always kind of viewed Reinhardts arc as a tragedy rather than a pro-authoritarian screed. He's going to die someday, and some new autocrat will take over. The final scenes of logh are ominous because there's not long before a new period of upheaval caused by the nobility he had initially intended to destroy. Even if you get a benevolent autocrat, they're going to die someday and leave behind a power vacuum

Yeah, I always imagined that the reason LOGH is framed as a documentary is because society collapses into a dark age afterward. There's no way Hilda and Mittermeyer managed to hold the regency together, especially when Hilda's big thing was that she could influence Reinhard when no one else could.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Fivemarks posted:

I really want to like LOGH. I really, really want to like it. But the series' Pro-monarchy, anti-democratic message puts me off it way too much. Like, I love the music and the presentation of the original OVA, but man gently caress Monarchy, even when its 'enlightened'.

It pretty clearly states multiple times that this is about the best result you could possibly expect from a monarchy and the ending of the series has Reinhardt agreeing to inject some democratic concepts into things because he too knows it'll very possibly all go to poo poo once he's gone.

If anything I think it does a good job of showing that Reinhardt's society isnt strictly better than even a terribly run democracy.

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015


Like, I get that it isn't MONARCHY GOOD EMPIRE BAD- the FPA is blatantly post-war japan's one party democracy with all the corruption it implies, with added bits of ultranationalism for good measure.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



HerraS posted:

Reinhardt is a loser rear end baby who decided to throw a tantrum and break everyone's toys because "mah sister". Imagine if someone tried to convince Yang that letting two million people get nuked for propaganda purposes was the correct choice and what his response would be. Gold-haired pissbrain goes "aww geeze oh man should I let a planetful of people get atomized to make my job a little easier". gently caress him, rest in piss.

I mean Oberstein was in all likelihood correct that more than 2 million people were going to die if the war continued and there was no way the nobles were going to stop their poo poo

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


TheKingofSprings posted:

I mean Oberstein was in all likelihood correct that more than 2 million people were going to die if the war continued and there was no way the nobles were going to stop their poo poo

Oberstein did nothing wrong

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Angry Lobster posted:

Oberstein did nothing wrong

Oberstein did plenty wrong, he just was probably correct and a loving rear end in a top hat

Pornographic Memory
Dec 17, 2008


The death tolls from regular battles are pretty staggering, don't some of the space battles literally result in millions of casualties?

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


The alliance loses something like a million men at Astarte

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


The Lippstdat League had more than 25 million soldiers, just for scale.

TheKingofSprings posted:

Oberstein did plenty wrong, he just was probably correct and a loving rear end in a top hat

Oberstein did not care about morality or individuals, he only cared about acomplishing his objective in the most eficient way. Of course he was an unempathic bastard, he had to be a cold ruthless mofo to do his job. Reinhardt knew this and that's why he kept him around, he needed someone who was not afraid to get his hands dirty.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

I interpret the series as meditating on whether the best autocracy could be preferable to the worst democracy. It comes down pretty firmly on "no" because multiple characters conclude that even though Reinhard produces better outcomes than Job TrŁnicht, if the empire goes to pot again there's not even a theoretical way to fix it other than democracy.

YoursTruly
Jul 29, 2012

Put me in the trash
Recycle Bin
where
I belong.


I kind of interpreted it as saying that, even with all these incredibly unlikely events and circumstances leading up to it, the best possible absolute monarchy is still terrible for almost everyone else. And in the real world, we'd probably never get the same sequence of events leading up to it, so our monarchies are always even worse.

Likewise, as bad as the FPA's democracy was, we theoretically have the power to keep it together and improve upon it, as long as we don't grow complacent and cynical and assume that all is already lost.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

HerraS posted:

Reinhardt is a loser rear end baby who decided to throw a tantrum and break everyone's toys because "mah sister". Imagine if someone tried to convince Yang that letting two million people get nuked for propaganda purposes was the correct choice and what his response would be. Gold-haired pissbrain goes "aww geeze oh man should I let a planetful of people get atomized to make my job a little easier". gently caress him, rest in piss.

This is kind of reductionist. Reinhardt's initial impetus to hate the Empire-as-it-is-when-the-series-begins does indeed come from what happened to his sister, but coming to the conclusion of "hey maybe a system that allows decadent nobles to pretty much literally buy women as human chattel is kind of lovely" isn't really a tantrum, and smashing the corrupt Imperial nobility to smithereens is a noble goal.

The problem is that he started tumbling down the "ends justify the means" staircase and began to wink and nod at shady business(let's hold a child hostage!) and literal atrocities to pursue his goals. This is specifically why Kircheis's death and Reinhardt's recovery from it is given such weight in the story - it represented the death of Reinhardt's conscience and Reinhardt's complete embrace of realpolitik.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


Holding a child hostage doesn't even make me bat an eyelid when I read histories of feudal aristocrats.

My take on how the old Galactic Federation evolved into the Galactic Empire under Goldenbaum was that automation was making large segments of the population unemployed particularly in the core worlds, and instead of holding that as a utopian ideal for self-actualization, there was a violent conservative reaction against it to put those lazy idle leeches to work. And the outcome of that was: the majority of the populace was stripped of franchise and welfare, and their economy deliberately de-industrialized to reduce their productivity and force demand for their labor. And huge numbers of the poor were genocided, particularly if they had a non-european phenotype. But the high productivity labor continued to be performed by machines, all for the benefit of the high nobles who were allowed to be completely decadent and idle. And this high nobility could maintain their power nigh indefinitely so long as they could continue to arm low nobles as security.

It's certainly one nightmarish way to resolve the contradictions of capitalism.

Phobophilia fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Apr 21, 2020

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Phobophilia posted:

Holding a child hostage doesn't even make me bat an eyelid when I read histories of feudal aristocrats.

Of course, but Reinhardt's new regime was specifically supposed to be better and less lovely than the nobles he was deposing, so resorting to the exact kind of rear end in a top hat behavior he railed against in the name of political expediency is a bit of a defining moment.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Kanos posted:

Of course, but Reinhardt's new regime was specifically supposed to be better and less lovely than the nobles he was deposing, so resorting to the exact kind of rear end in a top hat behavior he railed against in the name of political expediency is a bit of a defining moment.

I think that's more relevant with the nuking thing, rather than the child hostage. One's lovely towards the people, one's lovely towards the nobility.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

I think that's more relevant with the nuking thing, rather than the child hostage. One's lovely towards the people, one's lovely towards the nobility.

I mean, yeah, one of them is an outright atrocity and the other one is an inhuman political maneuver. Both can be lovely indicators that Reinhardt isn't living up to his own original hype even if one of them is way worse than the other.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Kanos posted:

I mean, yeah, one of them is an outright atrocity and the other one is an inhuman political maneuver. Both can be lovely indicators that Reinhardt isn't living up to his own original hype even if one of them is way worse than the other.

His original hype is anti-Goldenbaum dynasty. It's inhuman, but it's very much in keeping with his agenda. Besides, if memory serves, he kept the kid as a political hostage rather than totally denying him any luxuries in life. It was the loyalists who did that when they kidnapped him. No matter what, kid was kinda cursed to be a political tool or die.

Pornographic Memory
Dec 17, 2008


Let's be real though the Goldenbaum kid was the heir to a dynasty of space hitlers. Is killing baby space hitler wrong?

Marx Headroom
May 10, 2007

AT LAST! A show with nonono commercials!



Fallen Rib

Bongo Bill posted:

I interpret the series as meditating on whether the best autocracy could be preferable to the worst democracy. It comes down pretty firmly on "no" because multiple characters conclude that even though Reinhard produces better outcomes than Job Trünicht, if the empire goes to pot again there's not even a theoretical way to fix it other than democracy.

Yeah Reuental's rebellion was pretty much the author's way of saying "This is the logical conclusion of Reinhardt's approach and it nearly destroyed his accomplishments and it's gonna keep happening"

ThatBasqueGuy
Feb 14, 2013

someone introduce jojo to lazyb




iirc Reinhardt's succession plan was almost all but explicitly a mirror of Alexander the Greats, with all the implicit fragmentation that follows

Peanut Butler
Jul 25, 2003





the biggest issue with LoGH's political commentary is that it presents a binary of authoritarianism vs liberal democracy without acknowledging the spectre hovering in the background, the alternative of Marxist solutions

Yang seems to get close - using historical analysis to determine the playing field and where to go next. I felt like the show was building up to cast him as this universe's Marx/Lenin, but he never seemed to commit to anything that went too hard against the liberal ideology he grew up with, and then he fuckin dies which makes the rest of the episodes less interesting imo

it's a very small issue, really, and one that is common if you wanna make media that's commercially viable, but it stands out to me as a flaw in an otherwise well-considered show about space ideology

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002





Peanut Butler posted:

the biggest issue with LoGH's political commentary is that it presents a binary of authoritarianism vs liberal democracy without acknowledging the spectre hovering in the background, the alternative of Marxist solutions

but you just said it does depict authoritarianism

Pomp
Apr 3, 2012

Pomp has also
an anime avatar



Kanos posted:

This is kind of reductionist. Reinhardt's initial impetus to hate the Empire-as-it-is-when-the-series-begins does indeed come from what happened to his sister, but coming to the conclusion of "hey maybe a system that allows decadent nobles to pretty much literally buy women as human chattel is kind of lovely" isn't really a tantrum, and smashing the corrupt Imperial nobility to smithereens is a noble goal.

The problem is that he started tumbling down the "ends justify the means" staircase and began to wink and nod at shady business(let's hold a child hostage!) and literal atrocities to pursue his goals. This is specifically why Kircheis's death and Reinhardt's recovery from it is given such weight in the story - it represented the death of Reinhardt's conscience and Reinhardt's complete embrace of realpolitik.

Oh drat yeah that's good

Pomp
Apr 3, 2012

Pomp has also
an anime avatar



Peanut Butler posted:

the biggest issue with LoGH's political commentary is that it presents a binary of authoritarianism vs liberal democracy without acknowledging the spectre hovering in the background, the alternative of Marxist solutions

Yang seems to get close - using historical analysis to determine the playing field and where to go next. I felt like the show was building up to cast him as this universe's Marx/Lenin, but he never seemed to commit to anything that went too hard against the liberal ideology he grew up with, and then he fuckin dies which makes the rest of the episodes less interesting imo

it's a very small issue, really, and one that is common if you wanna make media that's commercially viable, but it stands out to me as a flaw in an otherwise well-considered show about space ideology

Isn't that a perfect metaphor for liberalism tho

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015


Peanut Butler posted:

the biggest issue with LoGH's political commentary is that it presents a binary of authoritarianism vs liberal democracy without acknowledging the spectre hovering in the background, the alternative of Marxist solutions

Yang seems to get close - using historical analysis to determine the playing field and where to go next. I felt like the show was building up to cast him as this universe's Marx/Lenin, but he never seemed to commit to anything that went too hard against the liberal ideology he grew up with, and then he fuckin dies which makes the rest of the episodes less interesting imo

it's a very small issue, really, and one that is common if you wanna make media that's commercially viable, but it stands out to me as a flaw in an otherwise well-considered show about space ideology

Not gonna lie- if LOGH had taken that step, had had the reformist minded members of the military and the people team up to overthrow the corrupt government and institute a socialist state, I would've been way more into it.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Fivemarks posted:

Not gonna lie- if LOGH had taken that step, had had the reformist minded members of the military and the people team up to overthrow the corrupt government and institute a socialist state, I would've been way more into it.

You know for a fact that would be the alternate reality if Yang had chosen to take power. I also like to think that's one of the post-ending power blocs that end up forming when the Empire inevitably collapses.

Captain Cappy
Aug 6, 2008



Was there anything about the FPA not being socialist democracy or even full socialism? I don't think politicians being corrupt and the people being too lazy to do anything about it has much to do with capitalism versus socialism. I don't remember it being a major factor in the situation at all.

The Unnamed One
Jan 13, 2012

"BOOM!"

The Alliance seems to fit into a social democratic structure, as far as I can remember, but Iím pretty sure there is definitely a class and financial caste system to some extent.

Doesnít Yang end up going to the military academy because his dad ran into huge debts, all the objects he collected in life were worthless forgeries, and that was literally the only way Yang could afford to study History?

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


The Unnamed One posted:

The Alliance seems to fit into a social democratic structure, as far as I can remember, but Iím pretty sure there is definitely a class and financial caste system to some extent.

Doesnít Yang end up going to the military academy because his dad ran into huge debts, all the objects he collected in life were worthless forgeries, and that was literally the only way Yang could afford to study History?

Yeah, the FPA is pretty clearly just America.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Yeah, the FPA is pretty clearly just America.

Postwar Japan not America. Itís a one party state

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


skasion posted:

Postwar Japan not America. Itís a one party state

Iím thinking more in terms of military industrial complex worming its way through all of the aspects of society. Serve in the military for your higher education, honour the veterans who die and heck, worship them at every possible opportunity because they fight for FREEDOM.

a two party state is still just a one party state if theyíre both just as totally unrepresentative anyway and out of touch

Captain Cappy
Aug 6, 2008



The FPA is in a situation that would actually justify having an America-esque focus on their military, since they are in a fight for survival against an authoritarian state that can actually beat them if given the chance. There are still a lot of parallels to America, but I think that distinction (being in an actual war) is what sets the FPA apart, and sort of what makes the state of their economic system moot. Socialists wouldn't have anymore leeway ending the war than a fully capitalist state would.

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015


Captain Cappy posted:

The FPA is in a situation that would actually justify having an America-esque focus on their military, since they are in a fight for survival against an authoritarian state that can actually beat them if given the chance. There are still a lot of parallels to America, but I think that distinction (being in an actual war) is what sets the FPA apart, and sort of what makes the state of their economic system moot. Socialists wouldn't have anymore leeway ending the war than a fully capitalist state would.

The FPA absolutely had a chance to end the war after Yang captured Iserlohn though.

Arbite
Nov 4, 2009

Our mare for President. The President who loses this war must buy himself and his counterpart custom titles of the winner's choice, and wear it for no less than a month. To the strongest



Fivemarks posted:

The FPA absolutely had a chance to end the war after Yang captured Iserlohn though.

They definitely had a chance to keep a favorable stalemate (if they stayed vigilant with Phezzan's neutrality) but I don't remember any talk of peace.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


The Empire never really made excursions into FPA territory other than small border conflicts. Really, the FPA were the aggressors most of the time.

ThatBasqueGuy
Feb 14, 2013

someone introduce jojo to lazyb




It's called a revolutionary war against reactionary feudal forces, smdh.

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Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


Both sides kept the war at a level of intensity that their economies could sustain, as that status quo benefited their respective establishments and true total war was too risky and costly to even consider.

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