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HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Angry Lobster posted:

Both sides kept the war at a level of intensity that their economies could sustain, as that status quo benefited their respective establishments and true total war was too risky and costly to even consider.

I always read it more from the Empire side that they just didn't really care too much about the backwater rebels, who they didn't even recognise as a relevant state most of the time, while the FPA were hopped up on the "liberate the people!!!" propaganda, distracting them from all of the poo poo the government were doing.

Also, isn't the whole point of the first look we get at the FPA "the economy can't sustain this war because we've done suicide mission after suicide mission after suicide mission and draining all of the talent" while the Empire is a touch of "we're so vast and decadent that we can go back to quaint medieval tech for aesthetic purposes and pimp out our ships to look imposing and elegant instead of being optimal combat vessels

and we're still at parity, so that as soon as someone vaguely competent takes charge we can conquer the FPA in a couple years."

The only hope for the FPA would've been if other toga wearing assholes like the Kastropp rebellion rose up and seceded from the Empire successfully, and then the nobles did their civil war shtick.

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Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


The Galactic Empire contained the vast majority of humanity, the culmination of centuries of expansion and economic growth under the old Galactic Federation. This bought on a variety of challenges as the rate of expansion slowed. The rise of the Galactic Empire was a reaction against bourgeoise modes of production, to prevent threats from the middle and working classes, their economic activity was deliberately de-industrialized, and made up for it with sheer manpower and automation. Heinessen's exodus was a tiny sliver of humanity that managed to flee into virgin territory, and when they managed to defeat the initial expeditionary forces, a large chunk of the Empire population immigrated to the FPA and gave it infinitely more manpower and economic capability.

But the Empire has always had more manpower. They utilized much less of it, while the FPA had to maximize the productivity of their population: hence they stuck to bourgeoise modes of production. Reinhardt restored the bourgeoise with extremely simple reforms, finally harnessing the his manpower and giving him a massive production edge over the FPA, and breaking the power of the high nobility in the process.

Pornographic Memory
Dec 17, 2008


I think it was mentioned that during the Empire's civil war, a lot of the rebels' strength came from nobles' private military forces. Between oppressing the peasants and keeping uppity nobles in line there seems like there was a significant drag on military resources just suppressing dissent at home. Like Kircheis being sent off to tell that guy who liked Rome too much to quit loving around seemed like it was portrayed as a fairly routine occurrence. So not only did their neo-feudalism sap their productive capacity through deindustrialization but it also made their society even more fractious despite all the violent repression that went into holding it up.

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

I always read it more from the Empire side that they just didn't really care too much about the backwater rebels, who they didn't even recognise as a relevant state most of the time, while the FPA were hopped up on the "liberate the people!!!" propaganda, distracting them from all of the poo poo the government were doing.

Also, isn't the whole point of the first look we get at the FPA "the economy can't sustain this war because we've done suicide mission after suicide mission after suicide mission and draining all of the talent" while the Empire is a touch of "we're so vast and decadent that we can go back to quaint medieval tech for aesthetic purposes and pimp out our ships to look imposing and elegant instead of being optimal combat vessels

and we're still at parity, so that as soon as someone vaguely competent takes charge we can conquer the FPA in a couple years."

The only hope for the FPA would've been if other toga wearing assholes like the Kastropp rebellion rose up and seceded from the Empire successfully, and then the nobles did their civil war shtick.

A continuous estate of relatively low-scale warfare was beneficial for the rich and powerful of the Galactic Empire, FPA and Phezzan . On one hand, it was one way to channel the ambitions of the younger nobles to a cause beneficial for the state and at the same time give them the chance to earn glory and rank to keep them busy. On the other hand, the war against the Empire was a continuous source of political gains for the corrupt war hawks of the FPA and the means to perpetuate in power. Let's remember that beside from these reasons, this balance of power was actually maintained by Phezzan behind the scenes.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Angry Lobster posted:

Let's remember that beside from these reasons, this balance of power was actually maintained by Phezzan behind the scenes.

I think it's important to clarify this: It wasn't the balance of power, but rather an attempt at keeping up a balance of the positions. Phezzan made limited to no effort keeping the Empire weak enough or the Alliance strong enough to keep them even, they used intel and disruptions to try to keep the status quo, manipulations of the players actions rather than of the state of the board. The point regarding the private military forces is another good one. If there was a balance of power, then the FPA would have an equivalent - the closest thing to that being the fleets that were involved in that coup, but the Empire also has a separate equivalent to those.

Phobophilia posted:

The Galactic Empire contained the vast majority of humanity, the culmination of centuries of expansion and economic growth under the old Galactic Federation. This bought on a variety of challenges as the rate of expansion slowed. The rise of the Galactic Empire was a reaction against bourgeoise modes of production, to prevent threats from the middle and working classes, their economic activity was deliberately de-industrialized, and made up for it with sheer manpower and automation. Heinessen's exodus was a tiny sliver of humanity that managed to flee into virgin territory, and when they managed to defeat the initial expeditionary forces, a large chunk of the Empire population immigrated to the FPA and gave it infinitely more manpower and economic capability.

But the Empire has always had more manpower. They utilized much less of it, while the FPA had to maximize the productivity of their population: hence they stuck to bourgeoise modes of production. Reinhardt restored the bourgeoise with extremely simple reforms, finally harnessing the his manpower and giving him a massive production edge over the FPA, and breaking the power of the high nobility in the process.

This is all true, although I was more pointing at the banning of cars and poo poo at or in the vicinity of Neue Sansoucci, the directorial intent rather than the lore underpinnings. I'd also like to add that if Yang did take power and there was peace with the Empire, the FPA surely would've gained far more than the Empire, especially considering their pre-existing industrial backbone.

YoursTruly
Jul 29, 2012

Put me in the trash
Recycle Bin
where
I belong.


Pornographic Memory posted:

I think it was mentioned that during the Empire's civil war, a lot of the rebels' strength came from nobles' private military forces. Between oppressing the peasants and keeping uppity nobles in line there seems like there was a significant drag on military resources just suppressing dissent at home. Like Kircheis being sent off to tell that guy who liked Rome too much to quit loving around seemed like it was portrayed as a fairly routine occurrence.So not only did their neo-feudalism sap their productive capacity through deindustrialization but it also made their society even more fractious despite all the violent repression that went into holding it up.

I assumed that the various nobles abusing their power for personal enrichment was a routine occurrence in the empire. The novel part here is that, rather than the other nobles trying to settle it with court intrigue or kanly, Reinhard used the organs of the state, under the command of a commoner. It was a way to test the waters for a larger campaign of subjecting the nobles in the interest of the state.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


My God I'm so nervous watching the geiersburg/iserlohn battle and its only episode 32ish! How is there 80 more episodes of this?!

klapman
Aug 27, 2012

this char is good


it just gets better too lol

Bellmaker
Oct 18, 2008

Chapter DOOF




Fivemarks posted:

The FPA absolutely had a chance to end the war after Yang captured Iserlohn though.

Not to mention Vermillion.

Was on the edge of my seat throughout that whole thing, no anime or hell any series has come close.

Marx Headroom
May 10, 2007

AT LAST! A show with nonono commercials!



Fallen Rib

Bellmaker posted:

Not to mention Vermillion.

Was on the edge of my seat throughout that whole thing, no anime or hell any series has come close.

The end of that battle where they showed details of all the different ways people were dying was such an incredible, sobering moment. It brought such a sense of scale to the stakes and the loss.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


"Alcohol is humanity's friend. Can I really abandon my friend?"

Stay gold, wen-li. Onto episode 40!

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


Yang Wen-li, the rational alcoholic.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


My good lord where is this campaign headed?!

I thought Julian was just going to disappear for a while but now phezzan is occupied and he'll have to escape or lead a resistance! WHY IS THIS SO AWESOME. episode 43 spoilers.

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002






Kingtheninja posted:

My good lord where is this campaign headed?!

I thought Julian was just going to disappear for a while but now phezzan is occupied and he'll have to escape or lead a resistance! WHY IS THIS SO AWESOME. episode 43 spoilers.

better spoiler tag placement

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

Kingtheninja posted:

My God I'm so nervous watching the geiersburg/iserlohn battle and its only episode 32ish! How is there 80 more episodes of this?!

It's a roller coaster.

I've never seen anything comparable in terms of a engaging "space opera". I'm sure some of the 10+ book series like Honor Harrington are similar but LOGH has a style and charm that is timeless.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




One thing that's comparable to LoGH is Three Kingdoms. It's pretty obvious how heavily inspired the author is by that story, especially when you look at their other notable work, Arslan.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


Episode 53 ARRRRRRGGGGGG! He was right loving there! Just say you slipped and push a button to blow that ship up! I will say the empire is an entertaining bad guy, but trunhit and his earth church just piss me off so much more. I hope this immediately diverts to pirate captain Merkatz adventures.

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


Kingtheninja posted:

Episode 53 ARRRRRRGGGGGG! He was right loving there! Just say you slipped and push a button to blow that ship up! I will say the empire is an entertaining bad guy, but trunhit and his earth church just piss me off so much more. I hope this immediately diverts to pirate captain Merkatz adventures.

There's only one true space pirate captain in this show, wait ten episodes or so and you'll see what I mean.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


Angry Lobster posted:

There's only one true space pirate captain in this show, wait ten episodes or so and you'll see what I mean.

I did not think you were being so literal! What a loving show.

Sad King Billy
Jan 27, 2006

Thats three of ours innit...to one of yours. You know mate I really think we ought to even up the average!

Kingtheninja posted:

I did not think you were being so literal! What a loving show.

You thought he was full of foppery and whim?

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


Ep. 68 Yang: we're going to recapture iserlohn fortress.

Schenkopp: ah poo poo, here we go again.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


So I'm around episode 74 I think, and I'm getting really nervous. Yang and the gang seem to be stuck essentially. I'm not sure how he's going to manage a defense of facil and iserlohn, let alone expand from there. Thankfully reinhard is dealing with reuenthal but at this point I just don't want my fun space crew to die

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Yang’s not called the magician for nothing.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


God dammit. gently caress you episode 82. I need a drink.

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


You are one of us now.

Bohemian Nights
Jul 14, 2006

When I wake up,
I look into the mirror
I can see a clearer, vision
I should start living today

Clapping Larry

Kingtheninja posted:

God dammit. gently caress you episode 82. I need a drink.

Yep! I took a 6 month break after that episode. No fictional death has ever hit me that hard before or since. It's gutwrenchingly awful but such great storytelling and definitely worth soldiering on.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Kingtheninja posted:

God dammit. gently caress you episode 82. I need a drink.

Welcome, friend

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


Okay, some thoughts: It was heartbreaking, especially the way he just kind of talks to himself as he's slowly dying. loving brutal. Julian butchering the group that shows up, insane. But it was so well done. This is a top ten show for me, and I'll be blazing through the rest of it for sure.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

Somebody told me that they turned up pilot dubs for a canceled 1999 English release. Episodes 51 and 52 turned up.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


A pity the FPA scrapped the counselling and therapist departments, Yang at that point had some serious substance abuse problems. In the end he couldn't function without sleeping pills, the man had just about given up.

Mister Olympus
Oct 31, 2011

Buzzard, Who Steals From Dead Bodies


Bongo Bill posted:

Somebody told me that they turned up pilot dubs for a canceled 1999 English release. Episodes 51 and 52 turned up.

Everyone sounds just a bit too sedate here, Reinhard especially. also lol at the random accents. very big "early dubs of the gundam movies" vibe

knox
Oct 28, 2004



I had tried to get into this maybe 2-3 times before, but the way it kind of just tosses you right into the middle of the story/seemingly unending amount of characters/it's slow pace, throwing it on before bed basically meant I never got beyond episode 4. But due to a lot of downtime now I'm up to episode 88, and safe to say this has probably ruined all other shows for me. Nothing really comes close to the intelligence of the dialogue, how it can switch between action and then a 10-minute metaphysical conversation, and most importantly the interpersonal relationships between so many characters who are uniquely themselves is amazing. I definitely had not seen a show that made me cry like LOTGH has a few times already in awhile, specifically twice.

Once I finish I will most definitely re-watch it again, to savor the good times and easier to pay attention to other things I surely missed this first time around due to the sheer amount of characters and information, even watching it in marathon fashion.

knox fucked around with this message at 11:36 on May 28, 2020

OnimaruXLR
Sep 15, 2007
Lurklurklurklurklurk

Bongo Bill posted:

Somebody told me that they turned up pilot dubs for a canceled 1999 English release. Episodes 51 and 52 turned up.

A little dry and the rewrite lacks finesse but considering how some dubs sound, I'd take it over most

Poplan sounding like Joey from Yugioh sure is a thing though

Chas McGill
Oct 29, 2010


knox posted:

I had tried to get into this maybe 2-3 times before, but the way it kind of just tosses you right into the middle of the story/seemingly unending amount of characters/it's slow pace, throwing it on before bed basically meant I never got beyond episode 4. But due to a lot of downtime now I'm up to episode 88, and safe to say this has probably ruined all other shows for me. Nothing really comes close to the intelligence of the dialogue, how it can switch between action and then a 10-minute metaphysical conversation, and most importantly the interpersonal relationships between so many characters who are uniquely themselves is amazing. I definitely had not seen a show that made me cry like LOTGH has a few times already, specifically twice.

Once I finish I will most definitely re-watch it again, to savor the good times and easier to pay attention to other things I surely missed this first time around due to the sheer amount of characters and information, even watching it in marathon fashion.
It's the Wire of anime.

gourdcaptain
Nov 16, 2012



Bongo Bill posted:

Somebody told me that they turned up pilot dubs for a canceled 1999 English release. Episodes 51 and 52 turned up.

... Is Julian played by Quatre from Gundam Wing (Brad Swaile)?!?

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



gourdcaptain posted:

... Is Julian played by Quatre from Gundam Wing (Brad Swaile)?!?

Yes, that dub is from Ocean, you can hear at least a half dozen of the big Canadian VAs from around that time

Doc Hawkins
Jun 15, 2010

Dashing? But I'm not even moving!




they even dubbed the song. does anyone still do that?

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


Thought I'd lost a little wind in my sails for watching this show, then I got into the 90's and hooooly poo poo let's ride this loving train!

knox
Oct 28, 2004



The relationship between these two is my favorite probably.



Kingtheninja posted:

Thought I'd lost a little wind in my sails for watching this show, then I got into the 90's and hooooly poo poo let's ride this loving train!

Lol this is what happened to me, basically after everything 'settles' down a bit and the cult monologue scene. Right back into the fire though obviously.

knox fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Jul 8, 2020

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aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!

Fun Shoe

knox posted:

The relationship between these two is my favorite probably.


It's definitely the best thing going on the empire side, but...c'monnn man, you can't say you prefer them to the Yang gang goofing off, passing a bottle of something, and trying not to get glared at too hard by Murai while in staff meetings or on the bridge.

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