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Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
Extremely tough armor that axes and crossbows go right throw? ...okay.

I guess if that was the epitome of body armor then I can understand why they never saw the need to develop needlers.

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Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty
Nephilm is a man who will nitpick Warhammer army lists all day long, and act condescending while doing so. I am pretty sure he is a robot, or a Vulcan. Logic is the only thing that matters to him, there is no "belief" to suspend.

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
Hey, suspension of disbelief is fine and all, but you're loving retarded if you actively try and defend crazy bullshit logic in words of fiction, as people are doing here. I can see the merits in the series and am just laughing along.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

Clapping Larry
I guess I don't really see how something like Crest of the Stars is any less "ridiculous".

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax

Nate RFB posted:

I guess I don't really see how something like Crest of the Stars is any less "ridiculous".

Ships flying through pseudo-2D hyperspace in bubbles of realspace that merge into each other at close range. Works for me. The fact that they still have manned fighter-craft is kind of silly but at least they make a point of only genetically engineered posthumans being able to withstand the Gs.

Rakugoon
Jul 30, 2010

by Y Kant Ozma Post

Nephilm posted:

Extremely tough armor that axes and crossbows go right throw? ...okay.

I guess if that was the epitome of body armor then I can understand why they never saw the need to develop needlers.

It's built to reflect concentrated light off, not crossbow bolts. Also some plate mail was perfectly capable of stopping bullets and archers still wiped them out.

As for axes being less believable than feudal space elves, that's inscrutable double standards.

Nephilm posted:

Ships flying through pseudo-2D hyperspace in bubbles of realspace that merge into each other at close range. Works for me. The fact that they still have manned fighter-craft is kind of silly but at least they make a point of only genetically engineered posthumans being able to withstand the Gs.

This is so much more convoluted and harder to believe than the "let's see you try to coordinate 50 million people" thing going on in LoGH I can't believe you're actually bringing it up.

Rakugoon fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Feb 18, 2012

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax

Rakugoon posted:

It's built to reflect concentrated light off, not crossbow bolts. Also some plate mail was perfectly capable of stopping bullets and archers still wiped them out.

As for axes being less believable than feudal space elves, that's inscrutable double standards.


This is so much more convoluted and harder to believe than the "let's see you try to coordinate 50 million people" thing going on in LoGH I can't believe you're actually bringing it up.

Well, first of all that refers to early firearms, which were quite lovely and their advantage over traditional long bows relied on easy of use and mass manufacture. Now, modern anti-ballistic fibers aren't meant to stop arrows or bladed weapons since you prefer mobility, but since the troops in the show are already wearing this bulky (I assume ablative) armor, would it really have been so hard to add plated layers underneath? Or to field flechette weapons that aren't those goddamned unwieldy medieval monstrosities?

Also, no double standard; not only am I not arguing here over the Empire being a monarchic system with nobles and poo poo, which would be the closest simile to your strawman, your jab at elves doesn't even follow because their ears are an stylistic choice more than anything and really have no relevance on what the Abh are or how they behave.

And on the LoGH fleet movement poo poo, the argument then boils to their comms being limited to short range radio broadcasts, their computers being 70s era toasters, optics and thermal sensors being a guy eyeballing it out a viewport, ships being hilariously slow... or I guess they move at plot speed? Tracking on turrets is also terrible but that links into lovely computers as previously mentioned and... ugh list goes on and on. Coordination is really the least of the problems they face. poo poo, I mean in the movie they showcase Wang coordinating the fleet by relaying to them all to follow pre-programmed formations he had written a few hours beforehand.

Nephilm fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Feb 18, 2012

Mecha Gojira
Jun 23, 2006

Jack Nissan
Dude, the Abh are literally a race of perfectly beautiful and intelligent people with extremely long lifespans and pointy ears. How are they not Space Elves?

Doc Hawkins
Jun 15, 2010

Dashing? But I'm not even moving!


Nephilm posted:

Hey, suspension of disbelief is fine and all, but you're loving retarded if you actively try and defend crazy bullshit logic in words of fiction, as people are doing here.

Nephilm posted:

Ships flying through pseudo-2D hyperspace in bubbles of realspace that merge into each other at close range. Works for me. The fact that they still have manned fighter-craft is kind of silly but at least they make a point of only genetically engineered posthumans being able to withstand the Gs.

quote:

their ears are an stylistic choice more than anything and really have no relevance on what the Abh are or how they behave.

Impressive!

Guyver
Dec 5, 2006

Arming millions with guns that fire flechette rounds in addition to the laser guns that work well enough most of the time seems incredibly costly. Then there's the whole "unwieldy medieval monstrosities" bit, none of the axes in the show look that unwieldy. In fact there seems to be quite a bit of fineness that goes into it. The weapon themselves are another example of the two sides different design philosophies. Ornate double headed battle axes on the Imperial side while the other has utilitarian tomahawks.

Guyver fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Feb 18, 2012

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
Beautiful, long lived and smart people is just post/transhumanism - pointy ears is solely what you'd associate with elves. Well that and I'd associate the fact that they follow inhuman values, but recent fiction has really pussified elves so it doesn't apply as much, and could be jotted down just as well under transhumanism.

And you know? Considering how meddlesome they are, being the entire root of the conflict and all, in hindsight they don't follow very traditional tokienesque values so...

But I digress, I just got to the part where they use self-propelled asteroids against the orbital defense installations. Because relativistic projectiles against fixed-orbit targets is such a clever, unforseeable tactic. This poo poo is great.

linall
Feb 1, 2007

Nephilm posted:

But I digress, I just got to the part where they use self-propelled asteroids against the orbital defense installations. Because relativistic projectiles against fixed-orbit targets is such a clever, unforseeable tactic. This poo poo is great.

Yeah, I wasn't super impressed when Kircheis(?) came up with this plan. I mean, it was neat to see happen. But everyone was like, "How'd he come up with that?!" and I was like uhhhh.

Nobody pulls out any good tactics until the Empire transitions anyway.

linall fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Feb 18, 2012

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
Nah, Kircheis does it first with the plotonium gas, which I thought was neat. Yang then uses rocks, which was surprising only in so far as discovering that they actually did have the ability to do that kind of stuff - at which point one wonders why space fortresses are even a thing.

Oh hey new OP. I like these vocals better.

Rakugoon
Jul 30, 2010

by Y Kant Ozma Post
With Yang and Kircheis' necklace attacks it's at least implied that they both used holes that any decent commander would have been guarding anyway. Like they basically win by having knowledge of the other side having left themselves wide open.

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


I think until we have the capability to build and maneuver fleets of interstellar ships in actual combat it might be a good idea to refrain from passing judgement on how that actually should be done.

linall
Feb 1, 2007

Nephilm posted:

Nah, Kircheis does it first with the plotonium gas, which I thought was neat. Yang then uses rocks, which was surprising only in so far as discovering that they actually did have the ability to do that kind of stuff - at which point one wonders why space fortresses are even a thing.

Most of the ones in this show have the whole liquid (metal?) exterior guarding the chewy center thing going on, probably to combat stuff like that. Though I guess if you accelerated something for long enough it might be able to just smash right through.

Breaky posted:

I think until we have the capability to build and maneuver fleets of interstellar ships in actual combat it might be a good idea to refrain from passing judgement on how that actually should be done.

True. And until you control an Empire you'd best refrain from commenting on how Reinhard rules- Oh wait, no.

linall fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 18, 2012

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


linall posted:

Most of the ones in this show have the whole liquid (metal?) exterior guarding the chewy center thing going on, probably to combat stuff like that. Though I guess if you accelerated something for long enough it might be able to just smash right through.


True. And until you control an Empire you'd best refrain from commenting on how Reinhard rules- Oh wait, no.

:v:

I'm just saying the sperg about what is "realistic" in a science fiction setting is always hilarious.

I thought that LOGH pulled it off better than most. Even the whole axes / armor thing made sense with the explanations given. And, as mentioned it gives you Schenkopp, who owns owns.

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
What I find hilarious is people getting butthurt over said lack of realism being pointed as such.

Well, the lack of realism can also be funny in its own way, because as I mentioned, camp.

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


Nephilm posted:

What I find hilarious is people getting butthurt over said lack of realism being pointed as such.

Well, the lack of realism can also be funny in its own way, because as I mentioned, camp.

So you're pointing out the lack of realism... in a work of science fiction. Ok I'm done with the derail.

Chas McGill
Oct 29, 2010

loves Fat Philippe
Can we all just agree that Walter Von Schenkopp is the supreme lovemaker in the Yang fleet, not Olivier Poplan?

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


Chas McGill posted:

Can we all just agree that Walter Von Schenkopp is the supreme lovemaker in the Yang fleet, not Olivier Poplan?

Absolutely :swoon:

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
The title belongs to Poplan, but Schenkopp has better taste in women.

KlavoHunter
Aug 4, 2006
"Intelligence indicates that our enemy is using giant cathedral ships. Research divison reports that we can adapt this technology for our use. Begin researching giant cathedral ships immediately."
Chorusing out "SPACE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!" with my friend when LoGH uses questionable physics was one of the best parts of watching this series :v:

Chas McGill
Oct 29, 2010

loves Fat Philippe

Breaky posted:

Absolutely :swoon:

I just watched episode 62. :allears:

I've finally seen "Do you have a girlfriend, young man?". Schenkopp is the coolest character I've seen in anime. I really hope he doesn't die :'(.

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax

KlavoHunter posted:

Chorusing out "SPACE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!" with my friend when LoGH uses questionable physics was one of the best parts of watching this series :v:

Yes, something is missing when you don't watch that kind of poo poo with other people.

Up to 42 now Empire invasion through both Iserlohn and Phezzan about to begin.

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

Chas McGill posted:

Can we all just agree that Walter Von Schenkopp is the supreme lovemaker in the Yang fleet, not Olivier Poplan?

Yes we can~

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
Ep 45.

"We should just tell him [Yang] that the General Staff Office will take every responsibility and he should just do as he thinks best."
*finishes his sandwhich*


I like this guy.

Chinook
Apr 11, 2006

SHODAI

Nephilm posted:

Ep 45.

"We should just tell him [Yang] that the General Staff Office will take every responsibility and he should just do as he thinks best."
*finishes his sandwhich*


I like this guy.

Yeah, he's great. My friend and I called him "Sandwich" and always joked about how he uses sandwiches to solve everything (even though it really never happened after that time.)

Minera
Sep 26, 2007

All your friends and foes,
they thought they knew ya,
but look who's in your heart now.

duck monster posted:

I probably shouldn't be laughing at this, but some of the homebrew attempts at english in this show really do amuse me sometimes



Blocks of latin text are so over done

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
Oh god battle near a black hole.

KlavoHunter posted:

"SPACE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!"

Kweh
Jul 20, 2006

ROYAL
STRAIGHT
FLUSH

Minrad posted:

Blocks of latin text are so over done



It was decided that her daughter marry Great Teacher Onizuka?

Under 15
Jan 6, 2005

Mr. Helsbecter will you please stop shooting I am on the phone

Nephilm posted:

Oh god battle near a black hole.

Yeah, was waiting for that one. No wonder Steinmetz was so surprised!

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004

Freaking out about space realisticness in a cartoon from a genre that usually has giant humanoid robots and magical space princesses is loving silly.

The whole show is clearly stylized on juxtaposing traditional formation warfare when armies of dudes with swords and crossbows would march about in various formations around europe, but in this with spaceships led by dudes who have prussian-like german names and wear capes. I mean come on, just enjoy it for its artistic merits.

Yes real space fights would probably involve unmanned drones firing lasers across millions of kilometers in space , but gently caress that would make boring watching.

Hell even realisitic modern war movies are not actually that realistic what with actual war being 99% boredom and 1% terror.

"Kirkesis, you take command, I have to go and take a dump."
"Snap one for me, my lord"

And yes, crest/banner of the stars is awesome. Its also a completely different sort of story to this.

duck monster fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Feb 20, 2012

Takes No Damage
Nov 20, 2004

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.


Grimey Drawer
I've always considered the actual fleet encounters to be secondary to the personal/political maneuvering that goes on throughout the show. A political drama that happens to feature epic space battles if you will.

And I think we can all agree that while not perfect, the SPACE PHYSICS are presented more realistically than in most other shows of this type. There's really just one minor bit at the end where I call total bullshit (Nephilm please post right after viewing episode 110, your sweet sci-fi sperg tears will be delicious).

\/\/\/ SciFi isn't my favoritest genre ever so maybe I'm just ignorant of some established tropes that you keep claiming to see in LoGH. They just don't seem to use the "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (teleporters, FTL jumps etc) that shows set in the distant future (or past!) lean on so often. Something like 'oh their laser pistols aren't super powerful or they would be too big to carry around, that's why thick armor is still effective, bust out the battleaxes' seems more realistic than 'yeah humans have developed the technology to jump through hyperspace, :dealwithit: ' at least to me.

Takes No Damage fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Feb 21, 2012

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax

Takes No Damage posted:

And I think we can all agree that while not perfect, the SPACE PHYSICS are presented more realistically than in most other shows of this type.

No, I'm not really seeing the "more realism" part. Space is treated as goofy as I've seen in anything that's not Planetes, and even loving Gundam does it better whenever it doesn't involve the humanoid robots or magical particles.

Also, the series gets a lot better after ep 40 something when all the incompetent people die or go offscreen, and I agree that the space combat at this point becomes just sort of something you have to sit through to get at the meat. But wow that's a grind to get there, I wouldn't recommend this series to other people.

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004

Huh. Well theres no accounting for taste I guess.

e: I just finished watching planetes like last night. Great little series and completely not about space , even though its set in space, and has surprisingly realistic physics going on in it. Very human series (with some occasionally very LF politics)

duck monster fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Feb 21, 2012

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011

I don't really care about realism but I always found it amusing that it felt more like watching cavalry go at each other more than spaceships to me, I can think of only one time when anyone used space's 3d movement to their advantage too, and it was Yang.

Further proof that in the future everyone is brought up to be dumber than a brick as Reinhardt states.

Rakugoon
Jul 30, 2010

by Y Kant Ozma Post
To be fair, even the genetically engineered superhuman genius Khan Noonien Singh hadn't figured that trick out.

ShinsoBEAM!
Nov 6, 2008

"Even if this body of mine is turned to dust, I will defend my country."

TK-31 posted:

I don't really care about realism but I always found it amusing that it felt more like watching cavalry go at each other more than spaceships to me, I can think of only one time when anyone used space's 3d movement to their advantage too, and it was Yang.

Most space combat seems to simulate old naval warfare, LoTGH is a bit weird because it does tend to simulate land war a bit more.

Cool thing like 99% of all scifi movies/animes forget acceleration is what matters in space not speed. Sure you have a cap due to radiation and blah blah but something around .6C seems to be pretty standard limit in most sci-fi universes. Which means acceleration is king but no everyone wants to pretend it works just like ships in the sea or planes in the air.

Which honestly considering the whole acceleration thing and this being like cavalry you could totally do a cavalry style charge of sorts by backing way off and accelerating in at max engines for a while.

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Chas McGill
Oct 29, 2010

loves Fat Philippe
I can look past the lack of realism for the most part. The scale and intrigue keep me watching.

I'm up to episode 67 now and I'm still more interested in the Alliance side of things. In fact, I think I skipped through about half of episode 66 because it was just Reinhard shuffling his admirals again.

The importance of showing the planning of future campaigns is not lost on me, but I feel the show sometimes devotes far too much time to scenes that are essentially just lists of names. This doesn't seem to happen quite as frequently on the Alliance side - probably because they simply don't have as many talented young bucks. The Alliance supporting characters like Schenkopp, Frederica, Poplan, and Trung (sandwichman) are more vibrant in my mind than their Imperial counterparts, though I like Ruental and Oberstein well enough.

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