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Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

TheKingofSprings posted:

Reinhard is totally gay but Sieg even in the original was motivated by Annerose

This was always my reading, though admittedly I've only seen the OVA. It always seemed clear to me that while Reinhard and Siegfried both deeply cared for each other, Reinhard loved Siegfried in a way that Siegfried never loved Reinhard. I always felt there was something deeply wistful and regretful about Reinhard asking Siegfried if he loved Annerose while Sieg lay dying.

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Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

gourdcaptain posted:

I'm just going to point out that in episode 26 of the OVA multiple people call Kircheis Reinhard's "other half" or equivalent, both allies and enemies. Gaiden gets significantly less subtle/restrained, complete with a bit where Kircheis goes home to visit his parents (who he hasn't seen for seven years until Reinhard urges him to) which starts nice enough until they ask him when he's going to get married and have grandkids. Queue Kircheis's expression instantly going awkward as heck, all joy draining out of the proceedings, and an argument ensuing as he says that isn't in the future...

IMHO, Gaiden's pretty good when I watched it recently for the first time except for the first half of Spiral Labyrinth, which is poorly paced and animated pain.

The way they refer to Siegfried as Reinhard's "other half" is (probably intentionally) ambiguous, but it can easily be taken to mean that everyone observing the situation understands that Siegfried was Reinhard's moral compass and moderating influence and without that Reinhard's almost supernatural genius may be diminished or even lost instead of "they were totally gay". Mittermeyer spends a fair amount of time in dialogue in the aftermath of Sieg's death trying to convince himself and Reuental that if they just continue to follow orders Reinhard will rally and all will be well, Reuental openly wonders if he backed the wrong horse because of the changes in Reinhard's personality and behavior, and Hilde's primary goal is to try to recreate the role that Siegfried filled because she's worried that Reinhard is going to either become Rudolf the Sequel or simply fail.

I haven't watched Gaiden, but from your description of the scene it seems possible to interpret that as Siegfried pining after Annerose(as he has always done) but understanding that his loyalty and obligation to Reinhard means that a relationship with her can never come to pass, and he's not interested in finding a romantic relationship elsewhere.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

gourdcaptain posted:

Unfortunately, the side effect of discussing 80's OVAs like this is they're not exactly going to say anything explicitly, so this is how it read to me. There's a _lot_ of stuff like that in Gaiden, and there's three arcs of anime original content that basically are the anime team's Reinhard and Kircheis fluff either platonic or romantic. (Also, one of these, The Duelist, has Reinhard fight what I can only describe as a redcoat ninja and go on a space Wikipedia dive and think Japanese swords are cool and want to learn a sweet finishing move. Kircheis is clearly somewhere between bemused and wanting to facepalm.) I'll just note that I don't really read Kircheis/Annerose from the series, but that's more in their weird standoffishness and some other stuff.

I do think the changes in DNT render it a blander looking product as a result.

Annerose is an extremely weird and standoffish character who is treated less like a person and more as some unapproachable virgin martyr figure who exemplifies a time in Reinhard's life when he was happy and fulfilled instead of restless, empty, and yearning for conquest and domination, so it's hard to read normal human interactions from her in the OVA. Even her interactions with Hilda later on are super strange and surreal compared to how natural most of the other characters' dialogue is.

That said, Siegfried's crush on Annerose is pretty explicit, in my opinion. When Reinhard and Sieg first meet as kids and Annerose first looks at Sieg and asks him to be Reinhard's friend, Sieg reacts like he's been hit by a taser. He repeatedly flashes back to this moment whenever he doubts Reinhard's methods to shore up his own resolve, and I think that one of the very last things Sieg says to Reinhard before he dies being "Tell Annerose I kept my promise" says a lot. Annerose throwing herself into a self-imposed exile after Siegfried's death due to a sense of guilt that she sent Sieg to his death(which she states to Hilda) also implies that she's aware of the hold that her off-handed request had over him and thus aware of the feelings he almost assuredly harbored for her, though it doesn't necessarily imply that she returned those same feelings.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

TheKingofSprings posted:

I always thought it was a mix of guilt and being so pissed off at Reinhard that his power hungry ambitions got Sieg killed.

When she's talking to Hilda, her lines are: "I've taken Siegfried Kircheis' life, and even everything other than that. He died, while I live on. I am a sinful woman." She never states a criticism to Reinhard's life goals or ambitions, and the imagery in the scene is very strong - an angelic Reinhard holding Siegfried's hand and flying into the sky with him. Reinhard is a flawed angel.

If she was truly pissed at Reinhard, it's doubtful that she would have acquiesced to Hilda's request that she allow Reinhard to post guards around her house for the sake of Reinhard's peace of mind.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

TheKingofSprings posted:

That was years later, it's possible she cooled off a little bit about it with time.

Sieg dies in episode 25 at the end of the Lippstadt Rebellion and Hilda meets with Annerose and agrees to let guards be posted in episode 36, which doesn't seem like years at all.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Billzasilver posted:

Kircheis was only a little gay, he strongly preferred Annerose. Reinhard was super, super gay, but he knew such love was forbidden.

Pretty much. Reinhard is like two heartbeats away from kissing Siegfried on the lips while Sieg is dying.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

OnimaruXLR posted:

Reinhard is kind of naive when it comes to poo poo other than matters of state and war. It's one of the big differences between him and Yang. He's like the Batman of governance; he lost a family member due to an injustice at a young age, and dedicated himself to correcting that through sheer willpower and know-how, to the detriment of basically every other aspect of what normal folks would call "life."

I'm not really qualified to make any statements in regards to "BUT IS HE GAY REALLY AND HOW MUCH?" either way but it's fair to say that, in a variety of ways, typical social standards aren't really applicable to him

Both he and Yang seem pretty much garbage at practical day to day life to me, honestly. The culture of the Free Worlds paired with Yang's position, modesty, and luck gave him a succession of subordinates, confidants, and loved ones who were allowed to impose on him enough(Julian, Frederica, Cazellnu, etc) to cover for the parts that his genius did not extend to, such as protecting his own well-being. The standoffishness of Imperial culture paired with Reinhard's personality and position meant that the only person who could do that for him was Kircheis, a person who he met before he attained his power and before he locked his heart away to pursue his ambitions. Hilda spends a huge amount of time trying to become his confidant specifically because she recognizes that he accepts this service from no one despite desperately needing it.

Reinhard being gay or not is mostly an interesting thought experiment with readings that could go either way, rather than something that really affects the story meaningfully.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

I don't know, I really like that old Oberstein is kind of a gaunt, cadaverous creepy dude. It suits the absolute distaste everyone has for him initially, which only increases when his methods become apparent to everyone in the know.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Bongo Bill posted:

Although the battles they fight against each other are naval, the Empire would have more need to fight land wars, insofar as autocracy means having more rebellions to put down.

Their culture also very clearly values manly man-to-man fighting and military virtue a lot more, given that there are multiple scenes where exalted officers like Reuental and Mittermeyer who should be a million miles away from infantry combat get stuck in personally and you have nobles like Ovlisser who are famous and feared because of their hand to hand fighting ability.

It's also of note that the deadliest and most feared FPA infantry unit are composed and led by Imperial exiles.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Dessel posted:

One aspect of the latest episode got me thinking a bit. It's a bit of a speculation but ehh.

So how is the fact that Julian gets brought under the care of Yang portrayed in the books and the original anime? I remember feeling back in the day watching the series it was weird at least, but now as the conditions for the programme were laid out bare in the latest episode it feels extremely gross and questionable. I mean, at least the translation even says the word "child soldier" in the latest episode. I do remember feeling that Yang wasn't really a good "father" for a person who was still minor, and the situation was all kinds of questionable, even if I didn't think Yang was particularly awful a person in that matter either.

But the entire concept of bringing a war orphan (of parents who were soldier(s)) under the tutelage of another family of soldiers is extremely gross. Admittedly we do not know the details of the so-called "Special Provision for the Welfare of Children of Soldiers Law", but who knows if the parents would have wanted their child to grow up to be a soldier at all and whether they'd have to sign anything to indicate what they wish for their child should they perish. The FPA has admittedly been in a war for 150 years, so the fact that the society hasn't militarized even more overtly could be construed as a relatively positive sign that even though the FPA democracy was in the end deemed corrupted as hell, there was a still relevantly functional civil society that represents ours today. But that does not remove the fact that the entire concept of this law is questionable. Especially seeing that the loan is forgiven if the child decides to "apply to become a child soldier or attend a military school" when they turn 15. That would have obvious indications about the foster parents pressuring more or less overtly for the child to become a soldier, or even the child feeling a false sense of responsibility to repay his foster parents and/or avenge his parent(s) by becoming one.


This is probably one of those situations that would likely evolve in even the most "free" societies after a century and a half of war against a superior military power. There is absolutely no way they'd be able to maintain a sufficient military on a volunteer basis to sustain that kind of conflict for so long without either resorting to a mandatory draft(likely to cause huge amounts of unrest and gently caress over the civilian economy on back line planets) or to resort to lots of shifty stuff like lowering the age for military recruitment and introducing a lot of "you can opt out of joining the military but we're going to gently caress you over if you decide not to" stuff like Yang having to go through military school or Julian's situation.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

DamnGlitch posted:

I miss Dusty in the new show. He's plucky and energetic and cynical and the only guy Yang is bouncing ideas off of right now is bizzaro callnizu

I really like Dusty. He's a dork, but despite not playing fifth dimensional ultra chess with the genius big boys he's smart and competent. That sort of awkward-yet-earnest companion isn't really filled by anyone else Yang interacts with regularly on a personal level. Cazzelnu is mostly a disapproving father figure, Julian is an adoring son figure, Frederica is, well, the love interest, and Schenkopf is basically the devil on Yang's shoulder. Dusty is sort of the only character who comes off as just one of Yang's friends.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

kirtar posted:

Ah yes the space Klan that was thwarted by fire hoses lawn sprinklers despite being armed with grenades.

It's more that they were thwarted by the prospect of the actual authorities showing up and arresting them once the fire alarm went off. The Space KKK are hugely dangerous but they're still technically outlaw terrorists despite their implicit political support.

If they want to actually assassinate someone, they'll beat the guy to death in a parking garage or car bomb him or something.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Given that the setting bangs on relentlessly about talented strongmen setting up their own governments what with the setting's history hinging on Rudolf von Goldenbaum and the Empire's present involving a talented strongman setting up his own government, all of the politicians' fears about Yang are honestly pretty logical. Yang's attitude makes him pretty much a huge freak compared to almost everyone else in a position of power and influence that we see. It's almost inconceivable to other people that a man of his immense abilities and insight should have absolutely no desire for power, prestige, or influence. Even his closest friends and allies are constantly flummoxed and wrong-footed by his implacable desire to keep his head down and do his job and no further, even to the point of utter destruction.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

chiasaur11 posted:

I wonder if a factor in the frustration at Yang might sometimes be approaching it from a more... American angle.

The central American image of (former) military leadership taking over civilian government is George Washington. Generally, they love George, in control, women dig his snuff and his gallant stroll. He's thought of as someone who took power when the situation demanded it, and stepped down as soon as he felt he could. The first image to come to mind for the military is also the first image to come to mind when considering people who can be trusted with power.

To put things very, very mildly, Japan didn't have the same experiences.

Leads to rather different expectations, I would think.

Washington was a civilian when he became president, though.

I'd think the central "i have a vague knowledge of history from school and pop culture" image of a military leader seizing political power in the west would be Julius Caesar.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Steve Yun posted:

One one hand itís ridiculous that stealing food from civilians is portrayed as going into 1800ís peasant villages and taking a dozen crates of food by hand

On the other hand itís refreshing that logistics is addressed at all on an animated show

It's an on brand kind of ridiculousness considering one of the major factions is Space Prussia down to having downtrodden peasantry despite being an interstellar empire and how several major setting turning battles are decided by dudes going at it with literal no poo poo battle axes.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

klapman posted:

If I remember right, wasn't that more like "We'll take all our citizen's food, then the FPA will have to feed them in order to avoid losing face"?

Yeah, it was a two part plan - they stripped most of the food supplies from the planets they knew they couldn't defend from the FPA, then snuck around and smashed the FPA's supply lines, forcing the FPA to forcibly re-requisition the food they gave to the civilians and thus utterly wreck their own "we're here to free you and give you better lives!" messaging.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

HerraS posted:

Reinhardt is a loser rear end baby who decided to throw a tantrum and break everyone's toys because "mah sister". Imagine if someone tried to convince Yang that letting two million people get nuked for propaganda purposes was the correct choice and what his response would be. Gold-haired pissbrain goes "aww geeze oh man should I let a planetful of people get atomized to make my job a little easier". gently caress him, rest in piss.

This is kind of reductionist. Reinhardt's initial impetus to hate the Empire-as-it-is-when-the-series-begins does indeed come from what happened to his sister, but coming to the conclusion of "hey maybe a system that allows decadent nobles to pretty much literally buy women as human chattel is kind of lovely" isn't really a tantrum, and smashing the corrupt Imperial nobility to smithereens is a noble goal.

The problem is that he started tumbling down the "ends justify the means" staircase and began to wink and nod at shady business(let's hold a child hostage!) and literal atrocities to pursue his goals. This is specifically why Kircheis's death and Reinhardt's recovery from it is given such weight in the story - it represented the death of Reinhardt's conscience and Reinhardt's complete embrace of realpolitik.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Phobophilia posted:

Holding a child hostage doesn't even make me bat an eyelid when I read histories of feudal aristocrats.

Of course, but Reinhardt's new regime was specifically supposed to be better and less lovely than the nobles he was deposing, so resorting to the exact kind of rear end in a top hat behavior he railed against in the name of political expediency is a bit of a defining moment.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

I think that's more relevant with the nuking thing, rather than the child hostage. One's lovely towards the people, one's lovely towards the nobility.

I mean, yeah, one of them is an outright atrocity and the other one is an inhuman political maneuver. Both can be lovely indicators that Reinhardt isn't living up to his own original hype even if one of them is way worse than the other.

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Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Phobophilia posted:

As pleasant as Mittermeyer is I still haved zero respect for he and Reunthal because they are high ranking aristocrats being waited upon hand and foot by a legion of servants: pick your poo poo up yourself you lazy gits.

I say that and I still love everything Yang does, while he is a human disaster, he doesn't use his position to demand labor from his social inferiors, instead they by and large serve him out of a sense of love and pity.

To be fair to Mittermeyer, his family was normal middle class with no noble title - he earned his position on raw merit - and he actually gives a poo poo about fairness and the welfare of the lower classes.

Reuenthal is just kind of a prick.

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