Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Ernie Muppari posted:

is there ever a good reason given why nobody just annexes phezzan?

i mean

i know sinister baldman is supposed to have political power because of money and sinister plot stuff

but it seems to me that you'd need to have something to keep the space hitlers and ascots from just rolling over you on day 1 before you could get that power

Because it's mutually beneficial for the Alliance and Empire to have a trade route and the only way for them to do that is through a "neutral" intermediary. Once the Alliance's number is up, the Empire doesn't need an autonomous Phezzan anymore because they can do whatever they want economically within the Alliance. I don't remember how explicitly they say this but I'm pretty sure Phezzan used to be just a regular old imperial world that successively bargained more and more autonomy from the central government in exchange for keeping the FPA trade open.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


It's more like those are the only charted routes through a shitstorm of black holes (or something, there's one ep where some fleet runs into the "edge" of the corridor and it's some kind of magic wall of space energy that blows them up) and if you try and warp through somewhere that isn't the corridor you run into a supernova or something. Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


DamnGlitch posted:

I was literally waiting for a strikethru quote~

Annerose is such a vacuum of anything remotely interesting. Its a bummer considering the very few other female characters are almost all much more interesting and better illustrated (Hilde, Frederica, uhhhhh i forget the woman who poo poo talks gob and gets killed for political reasons)

Jessica, aka "Guards, this woman".

Honorable mention to Katerose too.

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

I'm guessing it probably won't happen with this upcoming new series, but I'd be happy to see LOGH get a few characters' genders changed. I want to see some lady admirals, damnit!

Pretty sure I've heard the manga did this, but I've never read it so I couldn't say who.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


SHISHKABOB posted:

Don't forget about that big tits redhead. Actually I don't remember what she did, I think I was let down that she sort of just disappeared.

Pretty sure she gets whacked when Rubinsky murders his kid

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


The show begins in the year 3596. There's going to be a fuller exposition of intervening history later in the show, but even at this point it's explicitly set in our future rather than fanciful long time ago in a galaxy far far away or whatever.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


How many female generals are there in the world's military today, compared to men? How many were there in the German Reich? LoGH isn't Star Trek, it doesn't have any aspirations to portray a post-feminist future where all social ills have been worked out and equality, liberty, and fraternity are the order of the day. (Trek is also something of a sausage fest but you get what I mean.) In fact a major part of the theme of LoGH is that the liberal-democratic concept of moral progress is at best subject to arbitrary will of the people -- in the right context, the public's ideas of moral progress can be harnessed to excuse military coups d'etat, rise of fascist dictatorship, enactment of eugenic massacres -- and at worst, self-serving bullshit wielded by opportunist magnates to justify their ambition. "In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same." There are female characters in the military and political spheres the show portrays, and they are the exception rather than the rule, as they are today, and they have to contend with varying degrees of sexism in those spheres, as they do today.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Whether it was deliberate or not pretty much doesn't matter at all. Unintentional or tacit commentary on the role of women is still commentary on the role of women. The empire doesn't promote women to positions of military and political power because it's explicitly a patriarchal aristocracy where women are, if not exactly chattels, definitely at the mercy of a male guardian, and a liberal democratic audience watching the show can understand that because it fits with our historically informed preconceptions of what patriarchal aristocracies are like.

However, while in the alliance women seem to be much more emancipated and legally responsible, the alliance also doesn't really have many women in positions of military and political power. And that some people in the audience find uncomfortable and troubling because it doesn't suit their preconceptions of what a liberal democratic society should be like, despite the fact that in the actual liberal democratic societies in which they live (and Japanese society in particular), women aren't really found in positions of military and political power in any great number. To change this fact would have been in a certain sense untrue to the world in which we actually live. It would have been a significant change to one of the big themes of the show, that liberal democratic societies are fond of talking the talk, but not so fond of actually doing any of the idealistic things it claims to be based in. The most powerful woman in the show doesn't attain power by being elected to office by the ostensibly sympathetic democratic-republican social system, she gets it by being the right arm of an enlightened despot. It's not presented as a negative thing that neither side has gender equality in the admiralty because it's not seriously considered a negative thing in our society today, of which the FPA is a critique, and it sure wasn't considered a negative thing in the premodern societies the empire is riffing off of.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Sarcophallus posted:

Just poking in to remind you of Jessica Edwards, her campaign, and the fact that she was winning up until the thing.

Also that 1 of the 6? people that made up the Alliance's cabinet was a woman. Though I'll readily admit that while she was probably inconsequential, she did have the loudest voice in continuing the war efforts against the empire.

e: Dominique is an interesting woman in the show, though it's not clear how much power/influence she actually holds throughout.

Jessica is a great example of what I mean: a committed, fearless, pretty much indisputably righteous social activist who gets a "guards, this woman has lost her composure" and a jackboot to the head. I'm not saying that there's no strong female characters in LoGH, or even that none of them try to exert large-scale influence, but rather that they're shown to represent a small proportion of those in the corridors of power and on the front lines.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


OddObserver posted:

He doesn't seem to have any issue with Sitolet...?
Actually, does the diverse alliance side really only have 2 black people total, and one of them a big guy body-guard, or am I forgetting something?

The alliance is made up of refugees from the empire, a state literally founded on ethnic nationalism and organized mass murder. I don't think it's stretching things too far to assume there's a bit of genocide at fault for everyone in the future being white.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Pomp posted:

when do reinhard and siegfried kiss

Golden Wings

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


If you recall, LoGH's thesis is "history shows us that people do the same poo poo at all times and places, enlightenment ideals of Progress are at best a delusion subject to historical contingency". It's kind of a frequently repeated idea throughout the show.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Patter Song posted:

Julian is with Yang due to a hosed up program where the government adopts out war orphans to soldiers and pays child support...under the understanding that if the child grows up as a soldier repayment is waived but if the kid wants to be a civilian you have to repay years of child support.

Pretty sure they actually mention this in the show, or maybe I'm just confusing it with the identical scheme they run for Yang's college tuition.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Elotana posted:

Trunicht is a pretty clearly Teutonic name with or without the umlaut

Also, I always thought Alex's surname was supposed to be Cazenave (an actual French surname)

By the same token, I assumed Castelnau.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Phobophilia posted:

I think the moral of the show, if there is one, is that there is an inevitable march of history towards some kind of metastability. In the case of the events depicted in the show, it is peace through reunification of humanity. So from the first episode, there were two plausible outcomes: the alliance eating the decaying Empire, or the reinvigorated empire eating the best of the Alliance, into some kind of megastate less morally repugnant than the old Empire. In particular, the Terraists couldn't push back history and make Earth culturally and economically relevant again, nor replace Odin as the head of the hierarchy. Nor can the old high aristocrats of the Empire regain power, because their abuse of the empire had reached a breaking point.

But Reinhardt's won, and I found the show too generous towards the Empire. Like holy poo poo, look at the place, it's culturally stagnant and has been deliberately deindustrialised. Phezzan and Heinessen come off as more up and coming. I don't find the resilience of the Empire very plausible, Reinhardt notwithstanding. The old Empire should have been sloughing off massive chunks of itself over the course of the series. But instead, Friedrich barely resists the Reinhardt usurping the throne, and the Alliance cripples itself in a spectacular act of hubris, handing Reinhardt the prize.

As for "Terrorism can't change history", hahaha! Well, a better explanation is, terrorism can't change history of the victims of terrorism decide to use it as an excuse to do everything the terrorists wanted them to do!

In my opinion Reinhard's empire is doomed to collapse about ten minutes after the show ends. The reason why the old Reich didn't collapse was because the landowning nobility had more to gain from supporting the Kaiser than they did from striking out on their own -- if you stay in the empire you might have to furnish supplies and troops or something, maybe, but if you leave the Reich can kick your rear end because no individual noble seems to possess enough military force to handle the Reichsflotte (and this seems to be true right up to the highest tiers of command). There's no true will to change within the upper nobility and what's more, they are all in the same social circle thanks to the kind of snobbish palace culture they have so they're not gunning for big time civil war either. What Reinhard does is instead bind the nobility to him through charisma and the promise of conquest, which is cool and all but also has the consequence of clearing out the old nobility and their complacency and in place of them making his leading admirals insanely powerful and capable of controlling massive military forces on their own initiative. This builds and then almost destroys his empire within his lifetime and the kicker is there's not really anything to stop it from happening again in his absence. Mittermeyer isn't the type to seize supreme power, but what about Bittenfeld? Wahlen? MŁller? They were all loyal to Reinhard but what they're probably all thinking is why they should they remain loyal to his wife and kid.

The parallels to Alexander's death are entirely intentional and even highlighted by Mittermeyer's line to Felix. i.e. now that the boss is dead, it's time for some wars of the diadochoi, and everybody's conquest can be the sea of stars. I don't see it ending well for Reinhard's bloodline -- look what happened to Alexander IV. I think that what is meant by "Die Sage ist vorŁber, die Historie beginnt" or whatever is a recognition that poo poo is all downhill from here. This grand gesture of dying at the height of his power with a sweeping plan of reform left behind him is the last moment of the golden age that Reinhard brought, and now we're rolling on into the age of iron, where the historian retelling the story can lionize Reinhard because his progressive programs and strong central power are appealing relative to what is happening in the storyteller's modern, historical time and place. The moral of the show is literally spelled out for us and doesn't have anything to do with any trend towards political stability, it's "people are the same wherever, whenever".

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Patter Song posted:

I'm kind of amazed, after reading the book, that the show was so...vague...on how the Alliance government functioned, to the point of neglecting to mention that Trunicht, like Lebello etc. were basically Cabinet Ministers in a Parliamentary government, behind a Prime Minister, Royal Sunford, who isn't even named in the series. And that Trunicht used the "I opposed the invasion" card to become Prime Minister after the huge defeat of the invasion (the other two opponents, Lebello and the Vietnamese-named guy whose name I keep forgetting also advanced).

Santford does show up once pretty early in the series, it's in the episode where the council meets to rubber-stamp the invasion plan.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Gyre posted:

I'm going through the book right now and I realized there's a way to reconcile the "women aren't in combat in the future" and "homosexuality is bad in the future" parts that Tanaka almost certainly didn't intend.

You can see them as saying that "progress isn't a given". Even though humanity has gone to the stars, they've regressed in many ways. The degeneracy of the Empire and the current Alliance administration are examples, but the sexism and homophobia are symptoms. You can kinda compare it to the game Analogue: A Hate Story where a Korean colony ship goes full Joseon Korea as the end result of trying to control a civilian population in a restricted space. Compare also the relative freedom of women in Iran before and after the Islamic Revolution, which had valid aims against the monarchy.

In that way the whole "deeds of men stay the same" also says that if we aren't careful, we will sink into discrimination again. Hatred and violence against the other only cease to exist if we safeguard against them. That doesn't mean there isn't hope even in the darkness of discrimination, just as (ending spoilers) democracy endures on Heinessen (and perhaps even in the Empire) in the end. Democracy acts as a check against power in the same way education acts as a check against oppression.

Obviously this is very "death of the author" but I feel it's easier to read for me this way.

It's not any kind of stretch. We currently live in a world where hardly any women participate in frontline combat relative to the number of men who do so. The fact that there are a lot of people in our time who complain about the unequal treatment meted out to women in our society doesn't change this actual fact. Our society isn't whatsoever safeguarded against discrimination and demonization of others as a whole. Similarly LoGH portrays two societies where hardly any women participate in frontline combat relative to the number of men who do so, and these societies aren't whatsoever safeguarded from discrimination and demonization of others. LoGH portrays "modernity" as it is rather than as it would like to be seen.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Patter Song posted:

Bucock meets an old friend:


So...why did the coupsters let Drunky McTraitor into their ranks?

They needed a drunky coupster for his drunky power

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Baloogan posted:

Kircheis / Annerose, what would happen there?

Intrigue. It wouldn't be proper for them to have a relationship once Reinhard is Kaiser, that would be tantamount to naming Kircheis heir to the throne. So either they would have a doomed secret love or Oberstein/someone would manipulate Reinhard into believing they did so as to get Kircheis whacked.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Baloogan posted:

Kircheis would make a great kaiser, but wouldn't the next kaiser be reinhard's kids?

Yeah, but if he doesn't have any heir of his body then it creates a dangerous situation to marry one of his generals to his direct relations. It basically says that if he dies without issue Kircheis will be running the show, and that if he does have kids Kircheis will get bumped out of line for emperor of mankind by a baby. It's basically inviting Kircheis, or anyone who thinks they'd be better off under Kircheis than Reinhard, to kill him before he can reproduce. Of course Kircheis has no ambition whatsoever and would gladly be Reinhard's interim heir and play second fiddle to Reinhard's eventual children, but would any kid Kircheis had with Annerose feel the same way? Hell, you could interpret the ending of the actual show to be pointing towards a scenario like the collapse of Alexander's empire, where the death of the monarch with his heir an infant led to the fragmentation of his territory as some generals decided to prop up the boy's regime and some struck out for themselves. How much worse would it be if there were actual rival claimants?

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


DVD version has a bunch of redrawn material which is generally uglier. It's less detailed, digitally animated, and generally more cartoonishly/warmly colored. I don't know that anybody has made an exhaustive list of changes but you can find some comparison pics by googling.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


It's coming out in 2017, IG are making it, it's a readaptation of the novels rather than a remake of the OVA. Everything else is pretty much speculation

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Yeah, my guess would be rejiggered character designs/world design/general style, something more along the lines of the Fujisaki manga.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


halokiller posted:

On the flip side, make it a played for straight documentary like the one Julian saw.

This is kind of what the OVA is. Narratively, it treats the material flatly and without suspense. It's framed as if it's like a didactic historical reenactment of a past age. It's not exactly a documentary. I'm struggling to think of the name of it but there's a famous live-action series about WWI I watched in high school that took a pretty similar approach.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Shinji117 posted:

Pretty sure he was the writer for The Heroic Legend of Arslan, which had a 25 ep anime last year, then a much shorter 8 ep sequel this year.

Also Tytania, but few people talk about that one given how it feels like a bad ripoff of LoGH.

There's also an old OVA based on Arslan. It's not great but a good bit less crap than the show.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Kopijeger posted:

Presumably, he was not elected on a platform of autocracy and eugenics

Not sure we can actually presume this. Autocracy and eugenics go in and out of fashion with the times. Rudolf rose to power through demagoguery in a time where his society sucked, it's entirely possible he made strongman image a part of himself from the get go.

Kopijeger posted:

Instead, the narrator implied that the Empire turned itself into a constitutional monarchy through a series of reforms under Hildegard's regency and ,once he came of age, Alexander's reign.

Is this implicit? It's clear Reinhard intended for this to happen, but it's not clear to me that it actually does. Reinhard himself having no respect for the dynastic principle, I don't see why his remaining admirals would, particularly if a kid and his mom attempted to bind them to the rule of law.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


A PV on September 20 is news

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


More importantly is Rubinskaya still bald

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


That is not that bad. In fact if not for the preconceptions I have based on the OVA I'd probably say it looks really good. If nothing else I'm deeply amused by pretty boy Yang, no wonder nobody takes the poor guy seriously as an officer.

I would definitely like to wait and see other character designs though. There's a lot of dudes in LoGH and if they're all pretty boys it will get old fast. Whatever its visual failings, the OVA does a good job of making sure that you aren't going to get your Muellers mixed up with your Fahrenheits or your Bittenfelds with, well, anyone.

Mostly im just jazzed to see that this series is really going to happen and soon. Have they announced which books it will be covering?

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


The OVA's art style is fine and not something I would think of as something you have to suffer through or excuse because of its era, unlike some 80s anime. It's worth remembering that it ran for like ten years. The last of the gaiden didn't come out till like 2000. Imo what's aged poorly about it isn't the design but cheapness and lack of consistency in the execution, and modern anime by no means always succeeds in those departments either.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Wild Horses posted:

Bittenfeld is such a loving husband marry me


edit: ^disregard this reuenthal is better

Reuenthal will break your heart. Bittenfeld will crash your car

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


And Katerose. And Mashengo. And Vietnamese bread guy

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


I think most people who like LoGH would appreciate the movie Waterloo, for the same reason.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Doubt the new show will even get to the earth cult in any substantial way, they barely become relevant in any way other than being Rubinskyís mysterious backers until after Reinhard wins.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Rubinsky is suave and amoral puppet master type who always knows whatís up and frequently explains machinations of the plot to the audience. His appeal is like that of Varys or Littlefinger in Game of Thrones, he is smugly scheming at all times while keeping his hands clean and his basic motives unclear. Like those characters, this runs the risk that his motives when eventually revealed be a let down. In this case itís a mondo let down because the earth cult has no particularly charismatic characters and isnít really interesting or sympathetic in anyway, they are just a bunch of cartoon bads.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Thereís no way that Reuentalís haircut is regulation

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Captain_duck posted:

you guys watching the raws or something? I cant find ep1 of the new series.

Technically doesnít air until tomorrow IIRC, but there was a ts of it floating around. Not subbed though

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Xun posted:

Soo what kind of a show is this? Am I expecting decent-ish strategical fights? Or is it more like political intrigue/drama stuff? Just watched the first episode and tbh I'm not super impressed with the magical jamming that means the enemy can't see, hear, or notice that they can't. If this is more of a politics/drama instead of space fight show I think that'd be okay.

Itís both. Space Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Whoever translated the first ep for Crunchyroll is a dope. The thing that Reinhard is commanding is not called an "navy" (except metonymically), nor is it called an "army" (wtf?), it is called a "fleet". I get that under some circumstances 軍 could be used to mean any of these things or even something vaguer like "force", but the English terms are not interchangeable. Normally I don't complain about relatively minor subbing issues like this because I certainly couldn't do better myself, but cmon son, if you can't interpret military jargon sensibly why are you even translating this show.

This show is alright and looks great. It definitely nails the sense of scale that the first series was so good at. The use of CG for the space battles also lends them a dynamism that the original series could rarely achieve. It is severely lacking in capes (I guess those are all still to come though) and a good soundtrack (that said, I definitely smiled to hear the Alliance theme start up near the end of ep2). Some of the character designs are growing on me (but who the gently caress is that skeeze between Levi Oberstein and Reuenthal in the ED supposed to be).

Dusty's role as Yang's interlocutor in the original show gets filled by Lao in these two episodes. Lao is not an original character, but I didn't remember him at all - he only pops up later in the original show. Is this a thing from the book, where Dusty also doesn't show up till later?

YF-23 posted:

The way I understood it is that navigation mapping for fast travel requires star systems to be somewhat close to each other. Without it you have to use a prohibitively slower form of FTL which is why Ale Heinessen and his crew needed like 80 years for their travel; they were going blind through an unchartable part of space until they reached the other galactic arm.

The way the original show presents it, the Reich is in one galactic arm, the Alliance is in another, and the Phezzan and Iserlohn corridors are the only lightspeed routes between the two arms because otherwise you'll run into poorly-explained interstellar thing that blows you up. This makes no sense at all obviously. The way this show presents it, the Reich and the Alliance seem to be separated by some kind of nebula-type feature and presumably the Phezzan and Iserlohn corridors take you through holes in it. This doesn't make much sense either but who cares.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Cake Attack posted:

iirc dusty was an original character for the first anime i think

He appears starting in Vol 2 or 3 according to someone in this thread a while back

e: unrelatedly, rewatching the first ep I noticed another boner in the subs. The wine that Reinhard wants to share with Sieg isnít 410 years old, that would be fuckin ridiculous even if we assume itís preserved with magical space tech or something. Donít drink 400-year-old things. Heís saying itís a wine of the 410 vintage. i.e. itís 77 years old. Thatís still pretty old for a wine, but not ridiculously so.

skasion fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Apr 11, 2018

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


gourdcaptain posted:

While the "unnavigable space" thing in LoGH is just weird in general, I always reconciled that with the bit where even taking 50 years presumably going slow they managed to lose half their fleet and people on that trip presumably at least somewhat from hazards like that. This is probably my mind filling in for a hole, though.

Having started the books today, the first one says that the impassable region traversed by the corridors (they call it the Sargasso Space ) is impassable because itís unusually dense with red giants, variable stars, and weird gravitational poo poo. So letís go with that.

gourdcaptain posted:

Not as much of a fan of the new series as the other people here, although part of it is I've got some eye-related issues that make it an utter pain to visually parse the more complicated designs and less clear color palettes of the ships of the new battle style combined with the rapid camera movement. The other is this anime's more confident less conflicted Yang so far is just losing a lot of what endeared the OVA's Yang to me. See especially him pausing during his speech to the fleet to express his doubt about his actions in the OVA, and his facial expressions are just less exhausted/depressed looking in general to me.

This is making me appreciate the original OVA's choices in adapting the novels more, though.

I agree broadly, and the OVAís character design is really masterful so Iím not going to praise this showís in contrast, but I donít agree with your read on Yang. Yang isnít lacking for confidence and heís not terribly conflicted (not yet anyway), he just lacks passion and ambition in his career. Heís not depressed, but pessimistic and skeptical, even kind of cynical. Itís even more noticeable in the book where heís constantly restraining himself from making cutting remarks about everything.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply