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bgaesop
Nov 1, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Rincewind posted:

Come to think of it, are there any webcomics with sympathetic Paladin leads?

Goblins

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BexGu
Jan 9, 2004

This fucking day....

bgaesop posted:

Goblins

Alot of ways to take this

He means Goblins as in this comic: http://www.goblinscomic.com/

It is kind of a spoiler that takes place after the first story arc but after a group of goblins are able to fend off a group of adventures from killing them all, they decieded to become adventures themselves to better defend their village. One of them becomes a paladin.

It also has its own rear end in a top hat Paladin in it. A bigger rear end in a top hat then Miko.

bgaesop
Nov 1, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post


BexGu posted:

Alot of ways to take this

I meant the because I had already mentioned Goblins.

quote:

He means Goblins as in this comic: http://www.goblinscomic.com/

It is kind of a spoiler that takes place after the first story arc but after a group of goblins are able to fend off a group of adventures from killing them all, they decieded to become adventures themselves to better defend their village. One of them becomes a paladin.

This is what I was referring to.

quote:

It also has its own rear end in a top hat Paladin in it. A bigger rear end in a top hat then Miko.

I thought he was a fighter? Oh well.

Empress Theonora
Feb 19, 2001

She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.



Oh, I didn't know one of the goblins was a paladin-- I haven't read the archives all the way through, so I assumed that the evil goblin slayer guy was the paladin, and you were being sarcastic. I'll have to finally start reading Goblins regularly.

bgaesop
Nov 1, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Rincewind posted:

I'll have to finally start reading Goblins regularly.

Goblins and Order of the Stick are the only two comics that I enjoy enough to read regularly but I still don't want to, because they update so rarely that when I get the new update and read it I'm immediately sad that I have to wait.

edit: This is a good paladin. Possible spoilers for Goblins.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Rincewind posted:

Oh, I didn't know one of the goblins was a paladin-- I haven't read the archives all the way through, so I assumed that the evil goblin slayer guy was the paladin, and you were being sarcastic. I'll have to finally start reading Goblins regularly.

There's this dwarf (not Minmax's partner) who is a complete and utter murdering douchebag paladin.

Efreet saiid
Jan 29, 2006

by Lowtax


bgaesop posted:

Happy Elf, I think the main reason that the jackass paladin is a cliche is because it fits in real life. Cops are the real world equivalent to paladins, and guess what the cliche is there? They're jackasses. Of course, many cops are not jackasses, and maybe they would be cool people if it weren't for their ridiculous code of honor/stupid laws, but still, it's what sticks in people's minds.
I agree that the whole Paladin-bashing/alignment bashing thing amongst D&D players arises in no small part due to people's cliche approach to things like government, and authority.

These stereotypes don't fit the real world nearly as well as their proponents claim (worse, they often encourage the very behaviour they criticise, leading for isntance to the type of morons who think Gore would have done no batter than Bush after 9-11), but if people are going to make stuff up, they should be more creative, either way. Because I get sick of those cliches. Really loving bored with them.

I'm tired of fantasy churches being secretly depraved, and governments who suck at everything, and Paladins as self-righteous tyrants. I'm tired of men going mad when they get magic and similar sledgehammer-takes on why girls are awesome. I'm sick of loving druids and tree-huggers and elves always knowing what's really going on, while all the stupid humans just don't have a loving clue. And save me from impossible-to-beat foes that can only be defeated through the judicious aplication of plot tokens.

I'm not saying OOTS fits this negative trend, but a lot of other fantasy fiction does.

quote:

Of course, Paladins also have the whole holier-than-thou thing going on automatically since they actually, you know, are holier than most people. And there's nothing about humbleness or being a smug rear end in a top hat in the Paladin code. Or maybe there is in some versions, but not in the ones I've played with.
Various models of the code of chivalry encourage humility. Also they're meant to be LG, wich means they should be trying to get along with people and work for the common good.

Generally I don't think the idea of them as smug jugemental assholes really describes paladins at all, just a stereotype people have based on a minority of people playing them. In ideal terms they should at least have the option of being humble, and in rules terms, they have diplomacy as a class skill and a high CHA.

quote:

edit: The Paladin in Goblins is a nice guy
Big-ears, yes.

Kore? Not so much.
(assumng he qualifies as a paladin)

Rincewind posted:

fake fake edit: I like how the colors on Miko's clothes are reversed after she gets struck by the Gods.
I don't think they're reversed yet, I think she's gone from blue to grey/brown and might go from grey/brown to black or red later on.

Bamf
Jul 20, 2000



I'm sort of hoping Miko realizes what she's done and tries to achieve penance.

Taking a character from someone you hate to someone you feel empathy for would be way more interesting than her just going all sith lord or whatever.

gothfae
Mar 28, 2004

There seems no plan because it is all plan. There seems no center because it is all center.

Leikr Elferston posted:

I don't think they're reversed yet, I think she's gone from blue to grey/brown and might go from grey/brown to black or red later on.

She had the white and blue (presumably the colors of the Azure Order) sucked out of her clothing, you can see it rising as mist when she is struck, leaving dingy normal clothing.

About the paladins are rear end in a top hat stereotypes, those started way back with Mallory. Sure King Arthur and his knights (and historical knights) were honorable and just for their times, but Speedy being Racist was pretty normal for his time period too. They were still flaming douchebags a lot of the time, that dispensed low justice at a moments notice.

I think Xyklon did a good job at enraging her enough to pull a Darth. But yeah, she looks surprised as all hell.

The good thing about the paladin stereotype , it that when you play against it, you have a much more memorable character.

gothfae fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 29, 2007

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT




Bamf posted:

I'm sort of hoping Miko realizes what she's done and tries to achieve penance.

Taking a character from someone you hate to someone you feel empathy for would be way more interesting than her just going all sith lord or whatever.

They've got a fairly decent team mechanic going in the group so if they did go that way I'd hope it would be strictly sidecomic stuff. It's not a horrible idea, but I don't think it's likely.

I'd say that bit about her meeting with the Linear Guild in prison is very possible (I had forgotten meeting an evil Outsider is a prerequisite for Blackguard, good catch!), but I can also see the invasion happening like next comic. Becoming disgraced meas she can't fight with her allies so she is abandoned, she meets the Linear Guild on the battlefield and is forced to team up (Nale and co have no protection from or alliance with the hobgoblins). Since the city is falling it's impossible to get a cleric in for the raise and the OoTS have to escape.

Vomax
Oct 12, 2005

?


Bamf posted:

I'm sort of hoping Miko realizes what she's done and tries to achieve penance.

Taking a character from someone you hate to someone you feel empathy for would be way more interesting than her just going all sith lord or whatever.

I wouldn't really mind if Miko just faded away at this point. Have a few more comics with her in jail, having given up on life, maybe even facing execution for killing the ruler. Then just move the comic on to something else, like back to the army of hobgoblins and/or the rest of the gates.

Like the previous comic, this one is really open-ended.

SuperKlaus
Oct 19, 2005



Fun Shoe

Battlestar Ferrinus posted:

I would be with you on this except that OotS has gone out of its way to show that paladins aren't assholes. Hinjo and the other members of the Sapphire Guard are good, reasonable people, and honestly Roy follows the Lawful Good alignment faithfully enough that he could easily be a paladin instead of a fighter without dramatically changing in character.

I'm with you on Hinjo, but the thing about Roy is I kinda think he's a dick. There's a line between playing your role as the party straight man and just being a jerk to the "wacky" characters, and it's a line I think he crosses. There's something in his tone when he calls Elan stupid or predicts Elan will do something stupid for the 800th time that's mean. Also, while feeling good about scoring with your girlfriend is fine, giving yourself high-fives over it in the lewd manner he did (see an example a few strips back) seems an rear end in a top hat thing to do to me. Durkon, though, Durkon's Lawful Good and a stand-up chap.

This is a discussion thread and spoilers aren't really necessary past perhaps the first post, if I'm not mistaken. If anyone else feels my statements about recent events in the first post say too much, speak up and I'll tag 'em.

CoolCab posted:

I'd say that bit about her meeting with the Linear Guild in prison is very possible (I had forgotten meeting an evil Outsider is a prerequisite for Blackguard, good catch!), but I can also see the invasion happening like next comic. Becoming disgraced meas she can't fight with her allies so she is abandoned, she meets the Linear Guild on the battlefield and is forced to team up (Nale and co have no protection from or alliance with the hobgoblins). Since the city is falling it's impossible to get a cleric in for the raise and the OoTS have to escape.

I like Miko doing the Sith thing a lot too. And even though she'd never knowingly talk to an evil outsider, between Sabine's shapechanging and Nale's illusions I'm sure they can find a way to trick her. Too bad blackguards are weaksauce.

bgaesop
Nov 1, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post


SuperKlaus posted:

Too bad blackguards are weaksauce.

What blackguards are you looking at? 3.5 blackguards kick rear end. What level do you suppose Miko is currently?

Empress Theonora
Feb 19, 2001

She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.



Bamf posted:

I'm sort of hoping Miko realizes what she's done and tries to achieve penance.

Taking a character from someone you hate to someone you feel empathy for would be way more interesting than her just going all sith lord or whatever.

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it-- with everyone speculating about whether she'll fall in with the Linear Guild or Xykon or just try to kill everybody, this would be the most surprising thing of all.

Jonked
Feb 15, 2005

by exmarx


bgaesop posted:

What blackguards are you looking at? 3.5 blackguards kick rear end. What level do you suppose Miko is currently?
She has a Celestial Mount, so at least Level 5 Paladin, plus at least 1 level of Monk. However, she was capable of single-handedly taking down the party, san Durkon. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that the fight was 'on rails', since the weather affected Haley's shooting. Weather rules, although they exist, aren't often used in D&D, except for spells and when the GM wants them to matter.

So, probably a level or 2 higher than party.

EDIT: Actually, since she has Evasion, that means she is at least Monk 2/Paladin 5

Jonked fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jan 29, 2007

bgaesop
Nov 1, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Jonked posted:

She has a Celestial Mount, so at least Level 5 Paladin, plus at least 1 level of Monk. However, she was capable of single-handedly taking down the party, san Durkon.

Yes, but that happened off panel and Roy specifically mentions "railroad plot points" which indicates to me that it's the DM saying "She beats you guys" with no dicerolling involved.

quote:

So, probably a level or 2 higher than party.

I'd put the party at around 7 or 8 or so, so she's up to, perhaps, 10 or 11 at the most? 11 would be a big deal if she decides to go the Blackguard route.

Jonked posted:

EDIT: Actually, since she has Evasion, that means she is at least Monk 2/Paladin 5

Oh right, she's multiclass. Highly unlikely she's got 11 levels of Paladin then.

Wanderer
Nov 5, 2006

our every move is the new tradition


The level/class speculation thread on the OotS forums had Miko at level 14, I believe, with six levels of monk and eight of paladin.

There's also an interesting thread where Burlew goes in and talks about the systems behind the fight where Miko singlehandedly beat the Order down. To do it, she had to use Windstriker, and she kept using Smite Evil to keep Belkar out of the fight, so she might not be able to do it anymore.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



Jonked posted:

She has a Celestial Mount, so at least Level 5 Paladin, plus at least 1 level of Monk. However, she was capable of single-handedly taking down the party, san Durkon. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that the fight was 'on rails', since the weather affected Haley's shooting. Weather rules, although they exist, aren't often used in D&D, except for spells and when the GM wants them to matter.

So, probably a level or 2 higher than party.

EDIT: Actually, since she has Evasion, that means she is at least Monk 2/Paladin 5

Based on some evidence (V charging 360 GPs to cast Fireball, considering it costs 30 times the level of the spellcaster, seen here, Durkon being able to use the Control Weather spell and being able to case resurrect a whole lot of times) I'd set the level frame of the party somewhere around 13-14, Miko being more or less around that level, too.

Blind Azathoth
Jul 28, 2006
Dia ad aghaidh's ad aodaun... agus bas dunarch ort! Dhonas 's dholas ort, agus leat-sa!... Ungl unl... rrlh ... chchch...

bgaesop posted:

Yes, but that happened off panel and Roy specifically mentions "railroad plot points" which indicates to me that it's the DM saying "She beats you guys" with no dicerolling involved.

Well, while probably just DM handwaving, Rich posted a possible write-up of the fight on the GITP forums where Miko legitimately won against the party, although Durkon didn't do anything except heal the rest of the Order since he refused to actually fight and Belkar spent the whole time being grappled by the horse.

And I'm pretty sure Rich has also mentioned that the Order is about level 12.

bgaesop
Nov 1, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post


With 8 levels of Paladin she would get Lay On Hands, Smite Good 2/day, a 1d6 sneak attack, and Summon Monster 1 for fiends as soon as she takes a level of Blackguard. If she's got 9 levels she'd get another Smite Good and a skeleton companion!

Jonked
Feb 15, 2005

by exmarx


Calaveron posted:

Based on some evidence (V charging 360 GPs to cast Fireball, considering it costs 30 times the level of the spellcaster, seen here, Durkon being able to use the Control Weather spell and being able to case resurrect a whole lot of times) I'd set the level frame of the party somewhere around 13-14, Miko being more or less around that level, too.
That would follow, since Xylon is a Lich, and Liches tend to be very high level Final Bosses.

bgaesop
Nov 1, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Jonked posted:

That would follow, since Xylon is a Lich, and Liches tend to be very high level Final Bosses.

Liches only need to be level 11, though, right?

Jonked
Feb 15, 2005

by exmarx


bgaesop posted:

Liches only need to be level 11, though, right?
No, the base creature needs to be level 11. Becoming Lich essentially adds 4 levels to them, thanks to the Level Adjustment rules.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

adrift on a wind,
immaculate and unseen


Leikr Elferston posted:

Is the board game any good?

It's a lot of fun, although the first few times you play it it will tend to run longer than the predicted time. It's very much in the spirit of the comic, too.

quote:

Yeah but she should not have gotten to a high-level paladin with her attitude at all. Nobody would do a story in wich a druid is wandering around saying I FUCKN HATE TREES

Well, a Druid who screams about hating trees is like a Paladin who screams about loving demons - it's a direct violation of the class's basic premise. Miko is more like a druid who loves trees but haaaates people because toilets and horseshoes are "unnatural". (Actually, such a character appeared briefly in the strip.)

quote:

but rear end in a top hat paladins are so common they dominate people's perceptions. you don't see as many jackass fighters as paladins, in fact if it wasn't for zogonia I woulnd't even be able to think of an rear end in a top hat rogue.

Yeah, that's true. Paladins are as close to The Man as playable D&D characters really get, so whiny "rebels" are going to gravitate to bashing them. I wouldn't classify Rich Burlew like that, though.

quote:

I'd say that such a reckless action would qualify as dishonerable or even unlawful, maybe even evil. After all, if somebody is forever striking first and asking questions later, that to me is kinda evil in and of itself, because they're not taking due care and acting responsibly.

I agree that such actions are evil in a serious and philosophical way, but they're not necessarily capital-e Evil in the D&D sense. It's not Evil to kill Evil things within the Paladin code, even though you or I would call it morally reprehensible and probably want to jail someone like Miko immediately. (For roughly the same reason, I've never liked The Punisher much as a "superhero".)

Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jan 30, 2007

rantmo
Jul 30, 2003

No one is too ever too small to love the people like El Vago does.




I love OOTS, in fact, I've abandoned my old Achewood avatar in favor of this brand-new one. Let's all hop on the Bandwagon!!

bgaesop
Nov 1, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Jonked posted:

No, the base creature needs to be level 11. Becoming Lich essentially adds 4 levels to them, thanks to the Level Adjustment rules.

It adds 4 to their equivalent character level, yes. They need to be a level 11 spellcasting class to become a Lich, which coincidentally makes it perfectly legal for Rangers, Bards, and get this, Paladins to become Liches. Of course, that would rob the Paladin of their Paladinhood, but in one swift motion a Pally could become a Lich Paladin 9/Blackguard 2 with all the bonus Blackguard abilities. Pretty sweet deal, if you ask me.

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?


rantmo posted:

I love OOTS, in fact, I've abandoned my old Achewood avatar in favor of this brand-new one. Let's all hop on the Bandwagon!!

If I had any image skills, I would gladly make one of the mighty Banjo.

...or maybe Leprechaun Thog.

Efreet saiid
Jan 29, 2006

by Lowtax


bgaesop posted:

It adds 4 to their equivalent character level, yes. They need to be a level 11 spellcasting class to become a Lich, which coincidentally makes it perfectly legal for Rangers, Bards, and get this, Paladins to become Liches.
IIRC it's caster level 11, wich would not equate to an 11th level paladin or ranger.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

adrift on a wind,
immaculate and unseen


Wanderer posted:

There's also an interesting thread where Burlew goes in and talks about the systems behind the fight where Miko singlehandedly beat the Order down. To do it, she had to use Windstriker, and she kept using Smite Evil to keep Belkar out of the fight, so she might not be able to do it anymore.

Do you have a link to this? I don't really follow the GitP forums.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!


404GoonNotFound posted:

If I had any image skills, I would gladly make one of the mighty Banjo.

...or maybe Leprechaun Thog.

You mean like this?

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?


the_steve posted:

You mean like this?



Wow. Next payday that's mine. Thanks.

But drat, what to put as the title?

what's a "fenix"?
how thog's pants turn purple?
thog believe he can fly
thog get in touch with inner greenness. and outer grenness too.
thog arrived.
yay! now ice cream!
group hug!

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!


404GoonNotFound posted:

Wow. Next payday that's mine. Thanks.

But drat, what to put as the title?

what's a "fenix"?
how thog's pants turn purple?
thog believe he can fly
thog get in touch with inner greenness. and outer grenness too.
thog arrived.
yay! now ice cream!
group hug!

If there's space, you should go with

"You know, the first two, I probably should have seen coming. The leprechaun costume, not so much."

Probably not enough room to fit that in there now. If you can't fit that, take the inner/outer greenness one

I'm working on a Banjo one, but I need to find a comic with Banjo in it at a good size.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!


Behold! Banjo the Clown! God of Puppets!




In 5 festive colors, and a poorly made flash one

Edit: See, I told you I'd edit it into something better.

More edit: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html
That's the comic I got the image from, in case anyone feels like outdoing me.

the_steve fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jan 30, 2007

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003



404GoonNotFound posted:

Wow. Next payday that's mine. Thanks.

But drat, what to put as the title?

what's a "fenix"?
how thog's pants turn purple?
thog believe he can fly
thog get in touch with inner greenness. and outer grenness too.
thog arrived.
yay! now ice cream!
group hug!

prison changed thog quickly or if you wanna be thog's lover.

IMJack
Apr 16, 2003

Royalty is a continuous ripping and tearing motion.



Fun Shoe

404GoonNotFound posted:

Wow. Next payday that's mine. Thanks.

But drat, what to put as the title?

what's a "fenix"?
how thog's pants turn purple?
thog believe he can fly
thog get in touch with inner greenness. and outer grenness too.
thog arrived.
yay! now ice cream!
group hug!

thog brought breadcrumbs!

The Werle
Aug 8, 2005

Fireworks for Christmas is absolutely American


404GoonNotFound posted:

Wow. Next payday that's mine. Thanks.

But drat, what to put as the title?

what's a "fenix"?
how thog's pants turn purple?
thog believe he can fly
thog get in touch with inner greenness. and outer grenness too.
thog arrived.
yay! now ice cream!
group hug!

Personally I'd crop out the bubble and just have a larger picture of Thog. As is its a little too small to make the avatar grab your eye, and the quote in the bubble does nothing to enhance it.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!


The Werle posted:

Personally I'd crop out the bubble and just have a larger picture of Thog. As is its a little too small to make the avatar grab your eye, and the quote in the bubble does nothing to enhance it.


A bit more like this then?

Wanderer
Nov 5, 2006

our every move is the new tradition


Battlestar Ferrinus posted:

Do you have a link to this? I don't really follow the GitP forums.

Yep, here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=963864

The fight also assumes that Durkon is still staying out of the battle, but Miko pulls it off mostly because of paladin features, especially the Cha bonus to saves.

The Werle
Aug 8, 2005

Fireworks for Christmas is absolutely American


the_steve posted:


A bit more like this then?

I like this one better.

"Let Thog get door for you!"

Only registered members can see post attachments!

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the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!


The Werle posted:

I like this one better.

"Let Thog get door for you!"

I really want to redo my Elan and Banjo ones. I just need the background to look less lovely, you can see where apparently I missed pixels when I was coloring in the back.

It'd be nice if I could keep the original starry background like in the comic, but with the text bubble that's actually there, and the fact that I'm not really good at photo editing, I figured a solid color was the way to go.

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