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Quick! Somebody call the stick figure phrenologist to let us know which one's smarter!
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Apr 19, 2021 00:40
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Mystic Mongol posted:In Start of Darkness Redcloak had a brother and a neice and nephew, who loved him, all of whom he killed. In Start of Darkness, the Sapphire Guard killed most of Redcloak's immediate family. Being drafted into Xykon's army killed Right-Eye's wife and sons (Admittedly, that might not have happened had Redcloak not been visiting them at the time.) Right-Eye's daughter was smuggled away, and presumably, has left the narrative alive. Redcloak unambiguously killed Right-Eye, though.
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Apr 19, 2021 01:46
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Quick! Somebody call the stick figure phrenologist to let us know which one's smarter! The one who took an obviously unfair deal from literal demons is the smart one
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Apr 19, 2021 13:26
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What was unfair about it? The fiends delivered what they promised (enough power to save V’s family from a dragon) at the low cost of 50 minutes’ worth of V’s soul. They did then go on to exploit the soul time to sabotage the Order’s defense of the gates, but I don’t think that invalidates the deal itself. I would definitely sell my soul for 50 minutes in exchange for enough power to save a life or alter history, even knowing those 50 minutes could be used to prank anything important I might do in the future. V also established the Azurite refugee town and would have reunited the Order, were they not comically foiled by narrative, on top of saving their spouse and kids. That’s a pretty good deal. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Apr 19, 2021 |
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Apr 19, 2021 15:58
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Heck, they were even obligated to present V with another potential course of action to achieve what they wanted without doing the deal, though it admittedly relied on everyone else reacting appropriately and in time. The IFCC just knew that V’s pride was too great to humiliate themselves by running to their master to beg for help in cleaning up the mess that they had made,
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Apr 19, 2021 16:25
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:What was unfair about it? The fiends delivered what they promised (enough power to save V’s family from a dragon) at the low cost of 50 minutes’ worth of V’s soul. They did then go on to exploit the soul time to sabotage the Order’s defense of the gates, but I don’t think that invalidates the deal itself. V thought, at the time, that his time as the IFCC's slave would be AFTER he died. Also, the fact that V's Master is (potentially) strong enough to one shot an adult Black Dragon, and yet is just sitting around in it's tower REALLY nails down the apathetic, aloof nature of elves.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:07
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The IFCC aren't even being dicks about the time leased--stealing V for 1 minute at a time instead of the full lease duration.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:10
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Rhaka posted:The IFCC aren't even being dicks about the time leased--stealing V for 1 minute at a time instead of the full lease duration. I think of the line " Why should we lie, if we can get what we want by playing it straight?" often. And while we are talking about great lines when V commands the Kobold to become Mr. Scruffys litterbox " His silent screams are a symphony that I cannot share" is also a good line.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:22
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Johnny Aztec posted:V thought, at the time, that his time as the IFCC's slave would be AFTER he died. That's not necessarily the case. Rich has mentioned in a few places that V is basing their conception of their master on V's power level, not objective reality. So, since V was so much below their master as an apprentice, they still think of that master as being that much more powerful than they are despite their own massive growth. He hasn't explicitly denied V's master being that strong, just that you can't take that panel as gospel.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:56
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Gnoman posted:That's not necessarily the case. Rich has mentioned in a few places that V is basing their conception of their master on V's power level, not objective reality. So, since V was so much below their master as an apprentice, they still think of that master as being that much more powerful than they are despite their own massive growth. He hasn't explicitly denied V's master being that strong, just that you can't take that panel as gospel. It'd kinda defeat the point of V's pride being their downfall if they legitimately had no other choice, imo. The entire starmetal thing that lead to the black dragon's son dying wasn't even V's adventure, they went along because of Roy.
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Apr 19, 2021 22:04
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Acerbatus posted:It'd kinda defeat the point of V's pride being their downfall if they legitimately had no other choice, imo. Oh they had another choice, but it wasn't the one the fiends offered and it was way worse. Fly back to the ships, beg their compatriot's help, use the pile of divining magic v had created to find where the dragon fled, get durkon to plane shift, go on some side adventure, kill the dragon, get diamonds, raise their family. Every step hard. Hard for everyone involved. And swallow pride enough to apologize to the party they scorned, the family they endangered. No way that's what they'd do, because it wasn't expedient, it has huge costs and requires admitting weakness
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Apr 19, 2021 22:31
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I also wouldn't be a fan of the psychological impact on the kids being tortured to death and then living with that after rez.
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Apr 19, 2021 22:46
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Acerbatus posted:It'd kinda defeat the point of V's pride being their downfall if they legitimately had no other choice, imo. The fiend's alternative scheme was absolutely awful for like ten different reasons, none of which they gave V the time to contemplate. Their downfall chiefly sprang from all the choices they made after selling their soul.
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Apr 19, 2021 22:54
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:The fiend's alternative scheme was absolutely awful for like ten different reasons, none of which they gave V the time to contemplate. Their downfall chiefly sprang from all the choices they made after selling their soul. To be fair, feelings of near-omnipotence DOES have a tendency to cloud judgement a bit.
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Apr 19, 2021 23:09
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:What was unfair about it? The fiends delivered what they promised (enough power to save V’s family from a dragon) at the low cost of 50 minutes’ worth of V’s soul. They did then go on to exploit the soul time to sabotage the Order’s defense of the gates, but I don’t think that invalidates the deal itself. also freed ochul and saved the gate from xykon by delaying him.
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Apr 19, 2021 23:34
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Vaarsuvius is also directly responsible for the amount of time that the fiends have access to, because instead of just saving the family and leaving at that, there were other lingering moments of pride and arrogance like resurrecting the dragon's head just to genocide its family. Clearly there was no concern over ever having to pay the price that the fiends laid out. In the comic it looked like Vaarsuvius was perfectly willing to just hang onto the power indefinitely until Xykon snatched it away.
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Apr 20, 2021 00:00
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If V had just brought the rest of the party with them to fight Xykon, they almost certainly would have won then and there ironically enough.
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Apr 20, 2021 00:34
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Yeah, it was classic pure hubris. Such a good story arc, I always find myself reading the entire thing whenever I stumble upon it in the archives. Xykon would also have been in a lot more trouble without Redcloak to insist he set up the trap runes, and to figure out the Soul Splice. Part of V's arrogance was considering Xykon's lackeys irrelevant footnotes instead of crucial obstacles in their own right.
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Apr 20, 2021 00:38
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GlyphGryph posted:If V had just brought the rest of the party with them to fight Xykon, they almost certainly would have won then and there ironically enough. Eh, they didn't have Roy. Especially since Varsuuvius wasn't going to hang around fifteen minutes waiting for resurrection. And nobody was really prepared for the fight. Yeah, it probably would have gone better, but there's no guarantee on that one. Not that pointing out that things would likely have gone to poo poo anyway has any bearing on V's out of control actions and self-destructive hubris. Learning that raw force didn't mean anything was a character building moment.
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Apr 20, 2021 00:58
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Did V trance inbetween the dragon fight and the Xykon fight?
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Apr 20, 2021 01:10
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Gynovore posted:Did V trance inbetween the dragon fight and the Xykon fight? No, but the splice replenished all their spell slots. They were still sleep deprived and distracted though.
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Apr 20, 2021 01:39
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Fate has a funny way about it. Monster in the Dark learning about his own particular set of powers is gonna be exactly the push fate needed to get Elan his happy ending.
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Apr 20, 2021 03:00
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Facebook Aunt posted:No, but the splice replenished all their spell slots. They were still sleep deprived and distracted though. No, they said the Splice would both refresh the spell slots and rejuvenate V. V is fully rested ,
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Apr 20, 2021 03:51
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Johnny Aztec posted:No, they said the Splice would both refresh the spell slots and rejuvenate V. V is fully rested , https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html it doesn't say that, though i guess you could read it that way.
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Apr 20, 2021 04:08
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sebmojo posted:https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html All the vieny marks are gone from V's face. Thus, V is fully rested. 
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Apr 20, 2021 04:36
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I don't want to take a side, but I do want to point out that v says they feel tired and foolish afterwards. Since everything in this debate is reading too much into one or two lines, might as well add that one to the pile
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Apr 20, 2021 04:42
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ikanreed posted:I don't want to take a side, but I do want to point out that v says they feel tired and foolish afterwards. V just had all the Soul Splices smashed out of them, literally, and has experienced several traumatic emotional shocks. Of course V would feel tired. But there is literally no argument here. No Dark circles under the eyes, no vein marks = Rested. Just like how when a character is healed, they have less " Battle Damage" look.
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Apr 20, 2021 04:50
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Johnny Aztec posted:No, they said the Splice would both refresh the spell slots and rejuvenate V. V is fully rested , Gaining the splice recharged the spell slots, but what about after the dragon fight but before Xykon? V used at least one 9th level spell and one Epic. (I'm assuming Familicide is Epic).
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Apr 20, 2021 06:16
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Gynovore posted:Gaining the splice recharged the spell slots, but what about after the dragon fight but before Xykon? V used at least one 9th level spell and one Epic. (I'm assuming Familicide is Epic). Those were used up. But V still had a bunch of other spells from 3 epic casters in the whole. Until Xykon energy drained them that is.
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Apr 20, 2021 06:35
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Also Familicide was the necromancer's spell, and all her spells left when she did, so that spell slot would have been lost either way. Though since it was presumably a prepared spell (since only one of the souls was a sorcerer), unless a different context in which Familicide would get used came up that particular slot would have probably gone unused either way.
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Apr 20, 2021 08:17
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Roland Jones posted:Also Familicide was the necromancer's spell, and all her spells left when she did, so that spell slot would have been lost either way. Though since it was presumably a prepared spell (since only one of the souls was a sorcerer), unless a different context in which Familicide would get used came up that particular slot would have probably gone unused either way. That seems like a really niche spell to keep prepared all the time. Just casually wiping out huge chunks of entire species.
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Apr 20, 2021 08:31
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Facebook Aunt posted:That seems like a really niche spell to keep prepared all the time. Just casually wiping out huge chunks of entire species. Sure, but we're talking about the kind of person who would create a spell like Familicide.
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Apr 20, 2021 08:36
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The fiends seemed to have had the soul splice offer planned out in advance, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to presume they gave the souls notes on what to prepare too, with points along the lines of "Don't bother with the basics; the elf has that covered", "There'll be other souls focusing on the big guns from <School X> and <School Y>", "Bring samples of your flashiest atrocities."
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Apr 20, 2021 08:38
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Yeah, it's not niche if you're a complete monster and near-omnipotent necromancer and your reaction to someone slighting you is to instantly respond with disproportionate force. Like V says in that moment, if you're completely amoral it's also a way to make sure that your opponent's family don't attempt to avenge them. Also, if you're that necromancer and everyone knows you always keep that spell prepared, it probably makes it a lot more difficult for would-be heroes to even consider crossing you. Also, you're the most powerful necromancer in the world and, again, completely evil: who cares if huge chunks of a species die? That's just more stuff to reanimate later.
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Apr 20, 2021 08:42
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Slashrat posted:The fiends seemed to have had the soul splice offer planned out in advance, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to presume they gave the souls notes on what to prepare too, with points along the lines of "Don't bother with the basics; the elf has that covered", "There'll be other souls focusing on the big guns from <School X> and <School Y>", "Bring samples of your flashiest atrocities." Hell, it could well have been that they deliberately ensured that V would have access to Familicide as an elaborate means of knocking Girard off the board and ensuring his gate went down. E: Girard's clan, I mean, not Girard himself.
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Apr 20, 2021 08:43
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It's also not as bad a spell as it would be in the real world. In our world using that on a person could conceivably go way back and wipe out all vertebrates or something. In Oots it doesn't even wipe out an entire species, because the world was made fully populated a few thousand years ago.
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Apr 20, 2021 08:45
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Facebook Aunt posted:That seems like a really niche spell to keep prepared all the time. Just casually wiping out huge chunks of entire species. You’ll understand it when you craft your first epic spell.
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Apr 20, 2021 08:56
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would have to be very careful about casting that on a whatever species you are
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Apr 20, 2021 09:04
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jsoh posted:would have to be very careful about casting that on a whatever species you are With all the half-elfs there must be tons of guys that look completely human but are actually 1/16 elf. Anybody could have some unexpected ancestors.
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Apr 20, 2021 09:07
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If you're developing an epic spell to annihilate large amounts of living creatures according to a specific broad criteria, crafting in an exception for the caster (or just yourself specifically) seems like a no-brainer
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Apr 20, 2021 09:15
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