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Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


I think snaps store config in .snap or .config/snap or something like that. Probably doesn't follow XDG, because snaps.

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BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



If only Linux had consistent separation between the base system and third-party software.

Antigravitas
Dec 8, 2019

Outside Context Problem


Diff code:
From f40ddce88593482919761f74910f42f4b84c004b Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:32:24 -0800
Subject: Linux 5.11

---
 Makefile | 4 ++--
 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/Makefile b/Makefile
index ade44ac4cc2ff..de1acaefe87e6 100644
--- a/Makefile
+++ b/Makefile
@@ -2,8 +2,8 @@
 VERSION = 5
 PATCHLEVEL = 11
 SUBLEVEL = 0
-EXTRAVERSION = -rc7
-NAME = Kleptomaniac Octopus
+EXTRAVERSION =
+NAME = &#128149; Valentine's Day Edition &#128149;
 
 # *DOCUMENTATION*
 # To see a list of typical targets execute "make help"
-- 
cgit 1.2.3-1.el7

e: What the gently caress, the forum butchers the +NAME = 💕 Valentine's Day Edition 💕

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Heh, that's cute.
I think code blocks escape certain characters, and I'm not sure you can do nested escaping in PHP/Vbullitin/SA's version of Vbullitin.

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Heh, that's cute.
I think code blocks escape certain characters, and I'm not sure you can do nested escaping in PHP/Vbullitin/SA's version of Vbullitin.

That just made me wonder how old the version of php the forums is running on is.

Can't be recent, pretty sure radiumcode is the kind that codes more against bugs than features

Cheese Thief
Oct 30, 2020



Has anyone here ever tried AV Linux? Supposedly it's setup for audio/visual. I was thinking if they make JACK work, it would be worth trying for a single purpose OS. Maybe set .xinit to Renoise and see if JACK works out of the box? Honest to God, I got tired of fixing JACK as it would randomly break for absolutely no perceptible reason. In a fit of frustration I bought a Macbook Pr,o but it's unsatisfying to use.

Kamrat
Nov 27, 2012

Thanks for playing Alone in the dark 2.

Now please fuck off


I haven't tried AV Linux so I can't answer that question but isn't Pipewire supposed to fix a lot of the issues people have with Jack? I'm not sure if it's ready for primetime just yet but maybe look into it?

Kamrat fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Feb 16, 2021

mystes
May 31, 2006



Is it supposed to replace both pulseaudio and jack? because that would actually be pretty nice.

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


mystes posted:

Is it supposed to replace both pulseaudio and jack? because that would actually be pretty nice.

From the site:

quote:

It provides a low-latency, graph based processing engine on top of audio and video devices that can be used to support the use cases currently handled by both pulseaudio and JACK.

Fedora has been pushing it for a while now, but I don't think it's ready for primetime yet.It will apparently be the default in Fedora 34, which is scheduled to land in May-June, so maybe it will improve till then. It's supposed to have pulseuadio (and probably jack?) APIs so applications don't need to be changed yet to talk to it.

xtal
Jan 9, 2011
Hi, I'm an obnoxious prick. If you see me posting outside of CSPAM, please tell me to go back where I belong.


This is definitely grasping at straw, but has anyone ever heard of NVMe SSDs disappearing from a running system because of power saving features? Or is it almost certainly that it's a broken drive?

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



xtal posted:

This is definitely grasping at straw, but has anyone ever heard of NVMe SSDs disappearing from a running system because of power saving features? Or is it almost certainly that it's a broken drive?

even if its a powersaving feature causing it, its a broken power saving feature

but yes, once, long ago, I had a platter drive do something along those lines. again, it was a broken thing, even if the thing was power saving

The Milkman
Jun 22, 2003

No one here is alone,
satellites in every home


mystes posted:

Is it supposed to replace both pulseaudio and jack? because that would actually be pretty nice.

Yeah. It's suitable for general audio as well as low latency. Plus video. It has its own new API but also bridges for pulse and jack so existing apps still work with it. It's the one New Thing that doesn't seem to be terribly divisive.

xtal
Jan 9, 2011
Hi, I'm an obnoxious prick. If you see me posting outside of CSPAM, please tell me to go back where I belong.


RFC2324 posted:

even if its a powersaving feature causing it, its a broken power saving feature

but yes, once, long ago, I had a platter drive do something along those lines. again, it was a broken thing, even if the thing was power saving

Well yeah it obviously is broken, lol. I was hoping it was being powered off by the kernel but it fails the same way even with the power save kernel parameter disabled. So the drive is toast. This sucks, I had a failing drive like last month too!

Mr Shiny Pants
Nov 12, 2012


xtal posted:

This is definitely grasping at straw, but has anyone ever heard of NVMe SSDs disappearing from a running system because of power saving features? Or is it almost certainly that it's a broken drive?

I had this on my X399 because of a GPU being in a specific slot and having three NVME drives.....

Some weird combination of factors made it so that the drive would just go missing from Linux and Windows.
Moved the GPU a slot lower, no problems anymore.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



The Milkman posted:

Yeah. It's suitable for general audio as well as low latency. Plus video. It has its own new API but also bridges for pulse and jack so existing apps still work with it. It's the one New Thing that doesn't seem to be terribly divisive.
Why does it need to do video? Video and audio are two orthogonal things, it just so happens that some formats mux them together while others act as a container for two separate datastreams (think avi vs mkv)
Nowadays video gets handled by the framebuffer of the graphics card which is going to be displaying the video, and while it used to be a bit of an rear end to have to deal with vaapi or vdpau depending on vendor, that's pretty much a solved issue since you can nowadays convert between one or the other with the vaapi-vdpau-driver bridge.
Some opensource software has been capable of low-latency audio since the late 1990s, and at least one version is licensed such that anyone can take it.

Also, if it's compatible with pulse and jack, why not ALSA and OSS? It seems the compatibility is arbitrary at best.

This stinks of RedHat pulling a Not Invented Here, despite the fact that they hired the person who wrote pulseaudio.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Feb 17, 2021

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Antigravitas posted:

e: What the gently caress, the forum butchers the +NAME = 💕 Valentine's Day Edition 💕

The day they put emojis into the codebase is the day BSD usage grows by a ton.

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Why does it need to do video? Video and audio are two orthogonal things, it just so happens that some formats mux them together while others act as a container for two separate datastreams (think avi vs mkv)
Nowadays video gets handled by the framebuffer of the graphics card which is going to be displaying the video, and while it used to be a bit of an rear end to have to deal with vaapi or vdpau depending on vendor, that's pretty much a solved issue since you can nowadays convert between one or the other with the vaapi-vdpau-driver bridge.
Some opensource software has been capable of low-latency audio since the late 1990s, and at least one version is licensed such that anyone can take it.

Also, if it's compatible with pulse and jack, why not ALSA and OSS? It seems the compatibility is arbitrary at best.

This stinks of RedHat pulling a Not Invented Here, despite the fact that they hired the person who wrote pulseaudio.

While I cannot answer the "why" question, google's WebRTC library that they use in Chrome is using pipewire for Wayland desktop capture. Which, last time I tried it, didn't work (on Wayland). I do not know if it would be possible to implement that with pure Wayland or Compositor APIs, buthere ... there's at least one use case for pipewire's video capabilities.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Volguus posted:

While I cannot answer the "why" question, google's WebRTC library that they use in Chrome is using pipewire for Wayland desktop capture. Which, last time I tried it, didn't work (on Wayland). I do not know if it would be possible to implement that with pure Wayland or Compositor APIs, buthere ... there's at least one use case for pipewire's video capabilities.
So a feature that nobody will use when it finally works, because Chrome is bound to keep removing access to their sync and cloud features from all forms of Chromium, is the demo de jour? Good, great, fantastic.

xtal
Jan 9, 2011
Hi, I'm an obnoxious prick. If you see me posting outside of CSPAM, please tell me to go back where I belong.


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Why does it need to do video? Video and audio are two orthogonal things, it just so happens that some formats mux them together while others act as a container for two separate datastreams (think avi vs mkv)

...

This stinks of RedHat pulling a Not Invented Here, despite the fact that they hired the person who wrote pulseaudio.

Question and answer. This expands Red Hat's control of Linux, the second E in EEE.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



xtal posted:

Question and answer. This expands Red Hat's control of Linux, the second E in EEE.
I mean, I didn't wanna come out and say it, because it'd sound too much like me getting on a soapbox again about the same issue, but yeah that is what I was getting at.

Too bad that if you mention this around most Linux users, they freak out and think that that can't happen because it's opensource.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





BlankSystemDaemon posted:

So a feature that nobody will use when it finally works, because Chrome is bound to keep removing access to their sync and cloud features from all forms of Chromium, is the demo de jour? Good, great, fantastic.

I *think* Wayland, in general, needs Pipewire installed to do screen recording/sharing since it's a much leaner window manager than its predecessor and doesn't have the needed stuff built in for it. Things like OBS don't work without Pipewire too.

kujeger
Feb 19, 2004

OH YES HA HA

Mainly because wayland doesn't allow arbitrary applications to just dump the contents of your screen without the composer authorizing it, and pipewire can provide a standardized way of doing that (and getting a stream of video/audio) without every single thing having to implement their own thing for that, afaik


edit: I've been testing pipewire as a drop-in replacement for pulseaudio and it's already paid off by fixing a few audio-stuttering/crackling things, so as far as I'm concerned the sooner pulseaudio is shot behind the barn the better

kujeger fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Feb 17, 2021

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


I mean it's up in the air if the fears about RedHat are founded, but at the end of the day pulse audio is hot garbage and Jack isn't much better.

Nobody else is fixing them so if you want to argue open source, it's already failed in that regard.

And EEE doesn't really apply when your whole supply chain is open source, see the CentOS debacle and the community just giving them the middle finger and either leaving or starting rocky Linux.

mystes
May 31, 2006



BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Why does it need to do video? Video and audio are two orthogonal things, it just so happens that some formats mux them together while others act as a container for two separate datastreams (think avi vs mkv)
Nowadays video gets handled by the framebuffer of the graphics card which is going to be displaying the video, and while it used to be a bit of an rear end to have to deal with vaapi or vdpau depending on vendor, that's pretty much a solved issue since you can nowadays convert between one or the other with the vaapi-vdpau-driver bridge.
Some opensource software has been capable of low-latency audio since the late 1990s, and at least one version is licensed such that anyone can take it.

Also, if it's compatible with pulse and jack, why not ALSA and OSS? It seems the compatibility is arbitrary at best.

This stinks of RedHat pulling a Not Invented Here, despite the fact that they hired the person who wrote pulseaudio.
Synchronization?

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

So a feature that nobody will use when it finally works, because Chrome is bound to keep removing access to their sync and cloud features from all forms of Chromium, is the demo de jour? Good, great, fantastic.

Nobody will use? These days quite a few people use this with video meetings and presenting applications/entire screen. I have no idea if it's a Chromium feature or just Chrome, but WebRTC is a technology that's here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Nitrousoxide posted:

I *think* Wayland, in general, needs Pipewire installed to do screen recording/sharing since it's a much leaner window manager than its predecessor and doesn't have the needed stuff built in for it. Things like OBS don't work without Pipewire too.
Nope, wlroots-based obs-studio capture works on FreeBSD.

mystes posted:

Synchronization?
OS' (at least FreeBSD) can do picosecond syncronization (ie. they can keep track of file access/modification down to a 0.000000000001 second resolution) - I think they can manage audio/video.

Volguus posted:

Nobody will use? These days quite a few people use this with video meetings and presenting applications/entire screen. I have no idea if it's a Chromium feature or just Chrome, but WebRTC is a technology that's here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future.
Sure, WebRTC is used a lot (heck, I use it on Zoom and Discord on FreeBSD in Firefox, that's how widespread it is) - the point I was trying, and apparently failing, to hint at is that with Google removing access to more and more of its APIs, which they'll inevitably do to drive more Chromium users to their own thing, because they want that precious user data, it seems inevitable WebRTC will go the same way in Chromium.

mystes
May 31, 2006



I think A/V synchronization is a lot more complicated than just being fast or having good timer precision or whatever, but I don't know how it's done with things like pulseaudio so I can't say whether pipewire improves that.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



mystes posted:

I think A/V synchronization is a lot more complicated than just being fast or having good timer precision or whatever, but I don't know how it's done with things like pulseaudio so I can't say whether pipewire improves that.
Digital video contains a shitload of metadata from frames which amounts to sufficient timekeeping to the thousanth of a second (think movies in 23.976 fps), which seem to me to be a lot less than even nanosecond resolutions that even a microcontroller can manage (notice how small atomic wall-clocks, which syncronize with longwave time signals, have gotten).
Digital audio consist of either 8, 16, 24 or 32bit of information for each second, which is how the bitrate is derived.

So unless you have a crystal in your CPU that drifts enough for ntp (or your favorite replacement, I'm not here to judge) to complain about drift at runtime, you're good.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

So a feature that nobody will use when it finally works, because Chrome is bound to keep removing access to their sync and cloud features from all forms of Chromium, is the demo de jour? Good, great, fantastic.

Yes, "nobody" uses Chrome, good job.

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

it seems inevitable WebRTC will go the same way in Chromium.

WebRTC is fully BSD license. The thing you're complaining about is more akin to something like Canonical Snap, where the public-facing code that runs on the user machine is open but all the code does is communicate to a back-end machine somewhere whose code is proprietary. Google is disabling a public access key on a machine they own.

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


Yes, Google loves to either move to paid-only or restrict to their Chrome browser, or even remove completely, their public HTTP APIs. I know because about 8 or so years ago wanted to use their text to speech API that was free (for a small amount of requests per day) and then after a few months they moved it to paid-service only.
But their WebRTC library is a C++ library, and while fantastically difficult to get to compile, it is working quite well outside of their browsers once you figure out how to use it (lack of documentation is another "feature"). So I could have a C++ application streaming the desktop to a browser using WebRTC quite nicely. It worked in X11 (I tried only linux), it worked in windows it just didn't work in Wayland. And they were using pipewire to do the desktop capture for Wayland.

Getting pipewire out there working fully will be nice. Wayland needs all the help it can get if it is to replace X11 at some point this century.

Methanar
Sep 26, 2013
ASK ME ABOUT NOT TIPPING DELIVERY DRIVERS, OR ABOUT MY DIET OF CANNED BABY CORN AND CHICKEN NUGGETS

Volguus posted:

So I could have a C++ application streaming the desktop to a browser using WebRTC quite nicely.

What would be the use case of this?

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


Methanar posted:

What would be the use case of this?

Frankly ... none. It was just a personal project. I had at one point an idea about making some way to remote into a computer just from the browser (or just watching the desktop/framebuffer console, although google's library doesn't offer framebuffer capture), with the computer itself just running this little daemon and then via a website one could monitor and control a fleet of computers, but to be honest there are better tools available already to do this.
After that it was just a "I wonder how could one do this if they wanted to" kind of project. Lockdown and all, not really much else. It was a covid-type project.

Well, to be fair, the use case is there as there's always a need to control a remote computer which may or may not have SSH available. It's just that there are already ways to do this now ( Remote Desktop, VNC, TeamViewer, etc.). So it's not like I could make it a business or something.

Mr Shiny Pants
Nov 12, 2012


Volguus posted:

Yes, Google loves to either move to paid-only or restrict to their Chrome browser, or even remove completely, their public HTTP APIs. I know because about 8 or so years ago wanted to use their text to speech API that was free (for a small amount of requests per day) and then after a few months they moved it to paid-service only.
But their WebRTC library is a C++ library, and while fantastically difficult to get to compile, it is working quite well outside of their browsers once you figure out how to use it (lack of documentation is another "feature"). So I could have a C++ application streaming the desktop to a browser using WebRTC quite nicely. It worked in X11 (I tried only linux), it worked in windows it just didn't work in Wayland. And they were using pipewire to do the desktop capture for Wayland.

Getting pipewire out there working fully will be nice. Wayland needs all the help it can get if it is to replace X11 at some point this century.

Everything that gets some traction will be removed from the public API, how else are you gonna keep people on your browser?

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Craptacular! posted:

Yes, "nobody" uses Chrome, good job.
My dude, dudette, or dux, whichever you prefer, tenses and future clauses are a thing in linguistics.
Since this is the Linux thread, you're probably safe to conclude that I'm talking about all the non-official builds of Chromium that gets used by pretty much everyone who runs n*x on the desktop, rather than the 9X.Y% who use Chrome on Windows, ChromeOS or macOS, or some fork of Chrome like Safari or Microsoft Edge.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Feb 18, 2021

kujeger
Feb 19, 2004

OH YES HA HA

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

My dude, dudette, or dux, whichever you prefer, tenses and future clauses are a thing in linguistics.
Since this is the Linux thread, you're probably safe to conclude that I'm talking about all the non-official builds of Chromium that gets used by pretty much everyone who runs n*x on the desktop, rather than the 9X.Y% who use Chrome on Windows, ChromeOS or macOS, or some fork of Chrome like Safari or Microsoft Edge.

Chrome's Blink is a fork of Safari's Webkit, not the other way around (which again was a fork off of KHTML)


e: I am curious about actual numbers wrt Chrome vs Chromium on nixes actually, do any exist?

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



kujeger posted:

Chrome's Blink is a fork of Safari's Webkit, not the other way around (which again was a fork off of KHTML)


e: I am curious about actual numbers wrt Chrome vs Chromium on nixes actually, do any exist?
Sure, and WebKit itself is a fork of a couple of html and javascript libraries from the KDE project, which built on a a widget engine that dates back to 1997.

Fun fact: The only thing that has direct descendance to libwww from 1990, which was the ur-library for dealing with the world wide web, is lynx.
Firefox is the second-oldest, dating back to NSCA Mosaic in early 1992.
Opera Mini, which is still descended from the Presto engine from 1994 if memory serves, might be the third-oldest.

Short answer is, no.
Long answer is that if you don't treat market share (which delineates amount of new users of something) like usage share, and take the market share statistics of the last three decades, you can get an absolutely useless figure, because it doesn't say anything about whether however many people stick around on any given platform.

EDIT: Also, this is kinda neat; SeaMonkey is still around and maintained - I guess since it's got more Gecko than modern Firefox does (with large parts of its engine rewritten in Rust), it might be more of a direct descendant?
Especially considering it's a software suite like Moasaic was.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 18, 2021

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

My dude, dudette, or dux, whichever you prefer, tenses and future clauses are a thing in linguistics.
Since this is the Linux thread, you're probably safe to conclude that I'm talking about all the non-official builds of Chromium that gets used by pretty much everyone who runs n*x on the desktop, rather than the 9X.Y% who use Chrome on Windows, ChromeOS or macOS, or some fork of Chrome like Safari or Microsoft Edge.

When the change was implemented in my distro, I switched to closed proprietary Chrome and didn't have a cow because I'm not that kind of person. I don't use Linux because I'm concerned about Big Tech hunting me, but because I run all sorts of weird Chinese software and crackerjack bullshit on Windows to such a level that I'm no longer confident to enter banking details or SSNs into it. I used to dual-boot OSX for this job from 2013 until whenever Apple stopped signing drivers around 2017.

Honestly if you are that kind of person, then I don't know why you're sharing your browser history and what tabs are open to where at this very minute to a closed Google backend server anyway. Use xbookmarksync or whatever it's called.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Feb 18, 2021

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Craptacular! posted:

Honestly if you are that kind of person, then I don't know why you're sharing your browser history and what tabs are open to where at this very minute to a closed Google backend server anyway. Use xbookmarksync or whatever it's called.
I'm using Firefox with my own sync server.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


I basically stopped reading/posting in this thread after swapping to ubuntu over a year ago because it just works. Until an update a few months ago, where the bios seems to have trouble finding the grub to boot/dm-crypt whatever to decrypt my computer.

updates don't seem to be fixing it so I'm thinking of making my life hell again and installing arch. I do eventually get ubuntu to boot, but it happens through restarting my computer 4-7 times in a row until I get the password field, which is time consuming.

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Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

I'm using Firefox with my own sync server.

That's neat. I know FireFox's syncing service is available to more browsers and wish there were more webkit-based browsers with it than just GNOME Web. I would probably switch to Vivaldi if they adopted it instead of just leaving iOS users in the cold completely. (I know Vivaldi isn't open but Brave is run by a chud and that's even worse.)

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