Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Bark! A Vagrant posted:

Curious if you have any updates on this; I've thought about doing something similar for writing my dissertation. Going through the process of setting up a new OS to write is probably the pinnacle of yak shaving, but it could pay off in the long run...
Here's a write-up on FreeBSD 13 with XFCE.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Computer viking
May 30, 2011
Now with less breakage.

Bark! A Vagrant posted:

Curious if you have any updates on this; I've thought about doing something similar for writing my dissertation. Going through the process of setting up a new OS to write is probably the pinnacle of yak shaving, but it could pay off in the long run...

The BSDs don't really have the same kind of distros as Linux, probably because each of them kind of is a distro with its own kernel already - the same group that does the kernel also provides a userland, a packaging system, and an installer. There are a few projects built on top of FreeBSD, but you'll generally be fine running the base version instead.

As for which one, FreeBSD is probably the one with the most desktop (as in non-server) users, though I hear OpenBSD also works well on laptops. Note that both have some issues with some new WiFi chips, which may or may not be relevant depending on the age of the machine you're planning to use.

Computer viking fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Mar 19, 2021

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



In the *BSD world, a distro is a short name for a distribution set, which is the thing that the BSDs get installed via; ie. a compressed tarball is extracted to the root of the filesystem.
They're typically named kernel.txz, base.txz, docs.txz, and so on and so forth.

It's not just kernel and userland either, the libc, libc++, drivers, and basically anything that doesn't live in a contrib directory is all built by the same group, unless it's sync'd/imported from one of the other BSDs.

A good rule of thumb for laptop use with any of the BSDs is that if a developer is using a particular laptop, that particular model is likely to work.

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



BlankSystemDaemon posted:

A good rule of thumb for laptop use with any of the BSDs is that if a developer is using a particular laptop, that particular model is likely to work.

This is pretty much true of all OSes tho, and part of the reason Macs tend to not have as many issues. Non-standardized hardware is a pita to build against

VostokProgram
Feb 20, 2014



RFC2324 posted:

This is pretty much true of all OSes tho, and part of the reason Macs tend to not have as many issues. Non-standardized hardware is a pita to build against

it's primarily the laptop makers' job to make sure all the components they choose have appropriate drivers and integrate well. And it's the component makers' job to write those drivers or at least provide sufficient documentation to let someone else do it. But almost all of them only officially support windows. Expecting the OS devs to write all the drivers for all the hardware out in the world would never work.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Then there's fools like me who stock old laptops.

VostokProgram posted:

it's primarily the laptop makers' job to make sure all the components they choose have appropriate drivers and integrate well. And it's the component makers' job to write those drivers or at least provide sufficient documentation to let someone else do it. But almost all of them only officially support windows. Expecting the OS devs to write all the drivers for all the hardware out in the world would never work.
This is a good joke.
What controls what goes into a laptop is whatever device is cheapest up-to-and-including fixing PCB trace issues by modifying the driver with quirks, choosing proprietary interfaces that add nothing except complexity, and generally just not providing schematics and diagrams.

VostokProgram
Feb 20, 2014



BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Then there's fools like me who stock old laptops.

This is a good joke.
What controls what goes into a laptop is whatever device is cheapest up-to-and-including fixing PCB trace issues by modifying the driver with quirks, choosing proprietary interfaces that add nothing except complexity, and generally just not providing schematics and diagrams.

I didn't say the devices have to be good. Just that if I'm selling a laptop, ultimately it's my brand that takes flack if it is a lovely experience for users. So if I ship windows I'll make sure that everything works to an acceptable level on Windows (or I won't, because it's a cheap device and I don't care).

But my point is that primary responsibility for adding OS support for a device comes from the device's manufacturer. They know how it works. That for example FreeBSD devs have to pick up the slack because the vendor doesn't care about BSD is unfortunate. It shouldn't be the role model!

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



VostokProgram posted:

But my point is that primary responsibility for adding OS support for a device comes from the device's manufacturer. They know how it works. That for example FreeBSD devs have to pick up the slack because the vendor doesn't care about BSD is unfortunate. It shouldn't be the role model!

Sadly, this is never how it has actually played out. The responsibility for device drivers in any non-windows environment has always fallen on the writers of the OS and the community. It occasionally does for windows stuff too, but thats usually extremely niche scientific gear.

Sure, you would think that it would be the manufacturer, that would make sense, but the reality is that if we want decent hardware we aren't getting the drivers from the manufacturer, and so the statement about drivers for the stuff the devs use being better holds up

Slack3r
Feb 20, 2004


Cheese Thief posted:

I'm thinking about installing BSD on a tertiary laptop. I've installed all the usual linuxi before. All I want is a console only no gui system that I can use console applications, for maximum productivity and fewer distraction. I know pretty much nothing about BSD. Which recommended distribution?

I ran FreeBSD for a year a while back.. Towards the end, I was just running Linux binaries on it anyway as some of what I was trying to do HAD no native programs. I just switched back to Linux..... I noticed that BSD is much more organized. The documentation was fantastic.

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



Slack3r posted:

I ran FreeBSD for a year a while back.. Towards the end, I was just running Linux binaries on it anyway as some of what I was trying to do HAD no native programs. I just switched back to Linux..... I noticed that BSD is much more organized. The documentation was fantastic.

I've never heard anyone say anything bad about BSD itself, just the issues with software availability you mentioned and in fact that average BSD users tend to somehow be even more obnoxious than Linux evangelists.

Computer viking
May 30, 2011
Now with less breakage.

Leaning into the "even more annoying" thing, I run an analysis server at work, of the "ssh in and run R or command line tools" variant. It runs FreeBSD, and there has been remarkably little friction from that. Once a year I need to manually compile an R package or something. Very much a niche, but I'm happy with how smooth the entire thing has been for years, even with a varying selections of phd students hammering it.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



RFC2324 posted:

I've never heard anyone say anything bad about BSD itself, just the issues with software availability you mentioned and in fact that average BSD users tend to somehow be even more obnoxious than Linux evangelists.
It would be interesting to see a sociological study on how much strife and rift is caused by various factions in opensource, and their (usually not entirely correct assumptions) about the other factions.

While I don't use Linux, I respect the Linux users here on SA a heck of a lot more than the average zealot.
I think a big part of that comes down to the culture of SA, of course, but it's still a marked difference.

Computer viking posted:

Leaning into the "even more annoying" thing, I run an analysis server at work, of the "ssh in and run R or command line tools" variant. It runs FreeBSD, and there has been remarkably little friction from that. Once a year I need to manually compile an R package or something. Very much a niche, but I'm happy with how smooth the entire thing has been for years, even with a varying selections of phd students hammering it.
I'm curious about this since R is for statistical analysis - assuming that the software is built to take advantage of micro-architectural optimizations but doesn't have indirect functions, are you building the ports using CPUTYPE?=native or one of the ones mentioned in /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf ?


Also, in slightly confusing news, I just read over on El Reg that FSF has confirmed that Richard Stallman rejoined the board of directors

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009



Hopefully he's working hard developing the GNU video codec so they can get that video made.

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN



I find platform zealotry weird, but I guess I am not coming from an administrator's point of view, more a desktop/user-support point of view. I haven't tried running BSD for several years because I haven't had a reason to, and the only reason I installed it in the first place was out of curiosity and the novelty of running a triple-boot. I've used and supported to some degree Linux, Windows, and Mac for so long that I definitely have my preferences but can jump between them as needed.

Computer viking
May 30, 2011
Now with less breakage.

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

It would be interesting to see a sociological study on how much strife and rift is caused by various factions in opensource, and their (usually not entirely correct assumptions) about the other factions.

While I don't use Linux, I respect the Linux users here on SA a heck of a lot more than the average zealot.
I think a big part of that comes down to the culture of SA, of course, but it's still a marked difference.

I'm curious about this since R is for statistical analysis - assuming that the software is built to take advantage of micro-architectural optimizations but doesn't have indirect functions, are you building the ports using CPUTYPE?=native or one of the ones mentioned in /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf ?


Also, in slightly confusing news, I just read over on El Reg that FSF has confirmed that Richard Stallman rejoined the board of directors

A lot of the heavy lifting in R is done in the underlying matrix math libraries, so BLAS or ATLAS. Those take absolutely forever and a half to build properly, since they do all sorts of magical auto-tuning to the platform they build on. I may or may not have cheaped out and used the upstream package versions of those - the run times of our code tends to be either short enough to not move your hands from the keyboard, or long enough to leave it until tomorrow. Getting the absolutely maximal performance out of them isn't really as important for the sort of one-off code we run. For similar reasons, I haven't done any careful tuning of compiler flags, either. If it runs, and was compiled with any reasonable settings (so -march=native -O2 , typically), that'll do fine.

Which reminds me, I really should bother to properly compile R with OpenBLAS soon.

On the other hand, I have had to pick up another SATA SSD on my way to work, stuff it in a spare bay, and use the entire thing as swap just to get certain things to run to completion. Some of the co-clustering analyses are stupidly memory intensive, and 256GB just doesn't get you as far as it used to.

Computer viking fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Mar 23, 2021

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



BlankSystemDaemon posted:

It would be interesting to see a sociological study on how much strife and rift is caused by various factions in opensource, and their (usually not entirely correct assumptions) about the other factions.

While I don't use Linux, I respect the Linux users here on SA a heck of a lot more than the average zealot.
I think a big part of that comes down to the culture of SA, of course, but it's still a marked difference.

oh, the factionalism in the FOSS community is absurd and blocks more progress by bikesheddingeverything than teenaged me would have ever believed 20 years ago

rufius
Feb 27, 2011

Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.


CaptainSarcastic posted:

I find platform zealotry weird, but I guess I am not coming from an administrator's point of view, more a desktop/user-support point of view. I haven't tried running BSD for several years because I haven't had a reason to, and the only reason I installed it in the first place was out of curiosity and the novelty of running a triple-boot. I've used and supported to some degree Linux, Windows, and Mac for so long that I definitely have my preferences but can jump between them as needed.

Ya itís odd.

I work on Linux for work. I use BSD at home - mostly OpenBSD for ďappliancesĒ and FreeBSD as app server or file server things.

I mostly use BSD at home because the docs are consistently better and major versions donít usually move my cheese. Iím not anti-progress but the changes between major versions of Linux distros tends to piss me off so Iíd rather be pissed and paid for it at work .

Computer viking
May 30, 2011
Now with less breakage.

The Principle Of Least Astonishment approach to development is one of the things that keep me on FreeBSD, yeah. The linux side has an annoying, but productive, tendency to fix "this tool doesn't do the new thing" by writing a new, completely different, tool. That can be fine, but it is a bit more annoying to keep up with.

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



Please do not remind linux people of the 'standards' in our ecosystem. That's trolling of the highest order

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



Ah, but see, if we invent a new standard then surely everyone will adhere to that!

Head Bee Guy
Jun 12, 2011

Retarded for Busting

Grimey Drawer

When I boot up Manjaro with KDE, it defaults to sending the audio signal to the microphone-in line. It's an easy fix, but is there any way to get it to stop that?

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

So, last time, I asked about enabling scrollbar snapback after learning that it was hated by most of the people who chose to write about it on the internet. Everyone here ignored me, presumably because you all think I am a moral deviant for my desires. (This is fair.)


This time, I seek help with a different kind of snapping: windows snapping to the side of my desktop. (Still using KDE.)

I have a Panel at the bottom of my desktop, and when a window snaps to the bottom of my desktop, it snaps to the bottom of my desktop and either covers or is covered by the panel. Is there any way to make a window snap to the inner edge of the panel, rather than to the edge of the desktop?

(This isn't about maximization. If I set the panel to Always Visible, a maximized window will not go below the panel, but a non-max window will and will snap to the bottom of the desktop. I almost never maximize windows, so the latter case is what's important.)

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013

HAIL SATAN



Vavrek posted:

So, last time, I asked about enabling scrollbar snapback after learning that it was hated by most of the people who chose to write about it on the internet. Everyone here ignored me, presumably because you all think I am a moral deviant for my desires. (This is fair.)


This time, I seek help with a different kind of snapping: windows snapping to the side of my desktop. (Still using KDE.)

I have a Panel at the bottom of my desktop, and when a window snaps to the bottom of my desktop, it snaps to the bottom of my desktop and either covers or is covered by the panel. Is there any way to make a window snap to the inner edge of the panel, rather than to the edge of the desktop?

(This isn't about maximization. If I set the panel to Always Visible, a maximized window will not go below the panel, but a non-max window will and will snap to the bottom of the desktop. I almost never maximize windows, so the latter case is what's important.)

I don't run any extra panels, but if I right-click on the one panel I do have there is an option to Edit Panel, and there appears to be a button for placement location and mine is currently set to Screen Edge. I didn't mess around with it any further than that, though.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

The Screen Edge button is just a handle so you can grab the panel and drag it to a different edge, I believe. It doesn't actually do anything if I just click on it.

VictualSquid
Feb 29, 2012

Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.


Vavrek posted:

So, last time, I asked about enabling scrollbar snapback after learning that it was hated by most of the people who chose to write about it on the internet. Everyone here ignored me, presumably because you all think I am a moral deviant for my desires. (This is fair.)


This time, I seek help with a different kind of snapping: windows snapping to the side of my desktop. (Still using KDE.)

I have a Panel at the bottom of my desktop, and when a window snaps to the bottom of my desktop, it snaps to the bottom of my desktop and either covers or is covered by the panel. Is there any way to make a window snap to the inner edge of the panel, rather than to the edge of the desktop?

(This isn't about maximization. If I set the panel to Always Visible, a maximized window will not go below the panel, but a non-max window will and will snap to the bottom of the desktop. I almost never maximize windows, so the latter case is what's important.)
I have my panel on the right with default settings and windows snap to the inner edge. You probably set some crazy setting somewhere.

While doing a bit of testing, I found out that when I create a new panel at the bottom of my desktop, my normal panel ended up over the new panel. Which hid the remove panel option from me and made cleaning up quite annoying.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

VictualSquid posted:

I have my panel on the right with default settings and windows snap to the inner edge. You probably set some crazy setting somewhere.

While doing a bit of testing, I found out that when I create a new panel at the bottom of my desktop, my normal panel ended up over the new panel. Which hid the remove panel option from me and made cleaning up quite annoying.

Aha!

So, I had "Screen edge snap zone" set to 10 px, and "Window snap zone" set to None, because I don't like having my windows try to snap to each other's edges (because I have too many windows). Setting Window snap zone to 10 px (the default) makes Firefox et al. snap to the top of the panel correctly.

Now I just need to figure out how to make that a rule for only the panel 'window' ...

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



Vavrek posted:

Aha!

So, I had "Screen edge snap zone" set to 10 px, and "Window snap zone" set to None, because I don't like having my windows try to snap to each other's edges (because I have too many windows). Setting Window snap zone to 10 px (the default) makes Firefox et al. snap to the top of the panel correctly.

Now I just need to figure out how to make that a rule for only the panel 'window' ...

there is a whole section for making specific rules for specific window types, so you should be able to manage it

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

RFC2324 posted:

there is a whole section for making specific rules for specific window types, so you should be able to manage it

There is, but none of these rules are about windows snapping to each other's sides. It's a pickle. At least I know now what global setting it is which is causing this, so I'm not confused anymore.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


I tried to install arch and it appears that they have removed packages from their base package bundle, and so having failed to partition my system correctly I just installed manjaro in literally 1 minute.

Anyways I think rather than my ssd dying, it seems to be an issue with grub or luks encryption with multiple updates sitting on each other. The system boots reliably from the new manjaro installation.

imnotinsane
Jul 19, 2006


Join the dark side and use a tiling window manager instead and then all windows will go to their correct place on the desktop

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


imnotinsane posted:

Join the dark side and use a tiling window manager instead and then all windows will go to their correct place on the desktop

The only thing is that my laptop screen is tiny and I fear that, given my experience with tiling, that I will get desktops that strain my eyes. E: and the display manager is different than the distro right?

EE: Tiny but high res, it's a 1440 on 12.5 inches

Toalpaz fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Mar 24, 2021

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

imnotinsane posted:

Join the dark side and use a tiling window manager instead and then all windows will go to their correct place on the desktop

It's tempting except for the fact that I know I would hate it and all my habits are developed around stacking window managers and so everything would feel wrong constantly.

I should give it a whirl for an afternoon just to see if I can make it work. Any recommendations?



Toalpaz posted:

I tried to install arch and it appears that they have removed packages from their base package bundle, and so having failed to partition my system correctly I just installed manjaro in literally 1 minute.


Wait, wrong thread. (There should be an Arch smiley.)

tjones
May 13, 2005


YMMV, but I find having a tiling window manager helps with tiny screen space. I can set each window to stack ontop of each other or launch in their specific screen and I can instantly flip through maximized windows with a simple key combination. Or I can set two windows side-by-side with no screen real estate ever lost. There is a floating option for any window you wish to have float, though I realize now after years of use that I've not used it in a very long time except for very specific edge cases.

The biggest issue with running a tiling wm is always the initial setup and learning key combinations. But It is not unlike custom keybinds for your favorite game: it takes a few hours of tinkering to figure out what you want and then a week or so of constant use to learn them without having to think about it and after that it no longer is an issue.

I use I3 and have a backup system with dwm. I recommend both but personally gravitate towards I3.

imnotinsane
Jul 19, 2006


Toalpaz posted:

The only thing is that my laptop screen is tiny and I fear that, given my experience with tiling, that I will get desktops that strain my eyes. E: and the display manager is different than the distro right?

EE: Tiny but high res, it's a 1440 on 12.5 inches

Depends how you use your laptop, keyboard shortcuts and multiple groups let you easily move around between different apps, so you could easily get a lot of use only with one screen.

Most of them by default require a lot of configuration to make them look nice. I think arcolinux has a bunch of preconfigured Wm options with arch that you could try.


Vavrek posted:

It's tempting except for the fact that I know I would hate it and all my habits are developed around stacking window managers and so everything would feel wrong constantly.

I should give it a whirl for an afternoon just to see if I can make it work. Any recommendations?

I use qtile on my computer, it's meant to be slower than some of the other window managers but I haven't really noticed it.

Awesomewm is probably a good option, it has a lot of flexibility and I think a lot of people use it, so easy to find examples of what other people do and incorporate stuff that works for you. I think it even has floating layout as well so you can mix and match.

Or you could get a taste of it without changing everything,, I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head but there are apps that let you have tiling options in KDE and gnome.

I'm used to working with a mouse first but am coming to enjoy the tiling experience a lot. Being able to move stuff around easily and quickly is very nice.

Edit: awesomewm has a really cool window that shows all the different key bindings and I feel like other WM should replicate it, very useful when you are just starting to get comfortable with it.

imnotinsane fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Mar 24, 2021

Computer viking
May 30, 2011
Now with less breakage.

I think i'll be installing VMware vSphere Hypervisor (so basically the free version of ESXi) on a dedicated machine soon, to run some Linux images from a vendor who repeatedly and explicitly do not support any other VM/hypervisor solutions.

I haven't touched anything from vmware since before virtualbox became a reasonable choice. Is this as straightforward as I hope, or are there any weird gotchas I should be aware of?

(And yes technically not linux, sorry.)

Computer viking fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Mar 24, 2021

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!



Computer viking posted:

I think i'll be installing VMware vSphere Hypervisor (so basically the free version of ESXi) on a dedicated machine soon, to run some Linux images from a vendor who repeatedly and explicitly do not support any other VM/hypervisor solutions.

I haven't touched anything from vmware since before virtualbox became a reasonable choice. Is this as straightforward as I hope, or are there any weird gotchas I should be aware of?

(And yes technically not linux, sorry.)

Thereís a virtualization thread if you want to check it out

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3467608

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found



imnotinsane posted:

Join the dark side and use a tiling window manager instead and then all windows will go to their correct place on the desktop
ratpoisonwm represent!
shamefully, i had to move to i3, because after over a decade i finally got sick of a minor bug

Bob Morales posted:

Thereís a virtualization thread if you want to check it out

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3467608
Oh hey, I had no idea at this thread existed. Would've come in handy while I was configuring my server, but better late than never. Thanks

SamDabbers
May 26, 2003




BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Oh hey, I had no idea at this thread existed. Would've come in handy while I was configuring my server, but better late than never. Thanks

I look forward to your posts about bhyve

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang


Not sure if that's the most appropriate thread for this but here goes.

I'm setting up a new VPS and I want that one to run most services in containers (probably Docker). I'm going to be running .NET Core web applications, probably a Wordpress too, that sort of things. I usually put all of this behind an nginx reverse proxy. But I don't trust the security of containers - sometimes the dependencies are not updated with the latest security patches. So I want to run an IPS - especially because of Wordpress. Are there any nginx IPS modules? Or am I doomed to use Apache? I find nginx easier to configure and just lighter.

I'm a network engineer so usually the IPS I deal with are part of some UTM or NGFW, but this is for a personal use so I don't have that option.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

DerekSmartymans
Feb 14, 2005

The
Copacetic
Ascetic


Craptacular! posted:

Removed because I donít think this information is particularly useful

Believe in yourself! Shitposting is a human right!

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply