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 PupdateThree more puppies you guys! Another tricolour bitch, a lemon and white bitch and a lemon and white dog.  . From the sound of it, rather than having a solid black 'saddle' like their mum, the tricolour pups have smaller black patches - they may end up looking a bit like Quibble and their aunty Speedwell right here; I am so sorry that I don't have any pictures right now of Mum and brood, but here are a couple more shots of Granny Meadow and the newly born 'Y' litter (this was back in 2004);     
larasndar fucked around with this message at 16:45 on May 25, 2007 |
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May 25, 2007 16:38
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YAY! Go Twilight! And I'm sure all those new pups are just the cutest! *eagerly anticipates pics of new puppies*
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May 25, 2007 16:45
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I love you you can say, "and here is this puppy, who's sire is ___, here's his mom and dad, they came from this mom and dad, who came from..." There's this rich lineage in your pack which I think is SO cool!  Even though I am not a big beagle fan (I had two friends with beagles, who were quite oily and smelly, but the pet nutrition megathread is making me wonder if that wasn't so much "beagle" as it was "crap food") the pupsters are just darling. I've never seen lemons before, how cool!
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May 25, 2007 16:55
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My god... its full of... beagles. That is certainly an impressive breeding operation. Its clear that you and your family take great care for your packs, and thats really awesome.
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May 25, 2007 18:53
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notsoape posted:Anna is the only house dog at the moment; her only job is to see rodents off the premises (she takes this *very* seriously) and otherwise just be a very good girl (she is good at this). We used to have a big old sappy black lab named Florrie, but she died last year at 16 years of age It's interesting that your aunt and uncle have 'pet' dogs as well as the pack. My parents did the same thing when they were breeding labs. We had the breeders and then at least one 'pet'. Queen of Roses, I've seen the oily and smelly hound coat before and I can confirm that most of that is due to nutrition. My current beagle just has a light waterproof gloss to her coat and rarely smells "houndy". On the other hand, I had a ex whose mother fed their bassets and dachshund nothing but crappy food and table scraps. Those were the most disgusting creatures I have ever seen/smelled/felt.
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May 25, 2007 19:40
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FrenchyPoo Fagnasty posted:Queen of Roses, I've seen the oily and smelly hound coat before and I can confirm that most of that is due to nutrition. My current beagle just has a light waterproof gloss to her coat and rarely smells "houndy". On the other hand, I had a ex whose mother fed their bassets and dachshund nothing but crappy food and table scraps. Those were the most disgusting creatures I have ever seen/smelled/felt.  Unfortunately, it's really turned me off of beagles. Well, that and the BAROOOOO thing. Of course this is coming from the Sheltie owner.  Good to know the grease/smell is the expection, not the rule. I might come around, who knows.  I would, however, pupnap one of those little lemon guys in an instant.
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May 25, 2007 19:59
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Some sad news, I'm afraid - Twilight had one more puppy, but it was stillborn  . Stillbirths are not uncommon during whelpings, unfortunately. Beagles are pretty easy whelpers (one of the many reasons that they are popular in laboratory environments) but even so we would expect to see a stillbirth maybe one in every three litters. There really isn't much you can do to prevent it, but it's always sad .However, the other 6 pups are snuggled up and warm, Twilight is doing a great job and has plenty of milk and Smuggler has been told that he's a daddy  . My aunt says that 6 puppies is plenty for this year (we had 13 altogether last year, although two were drafted to another pack), so this will be the only litter. However, Smuggler's brother Spitfire was used to cover a bitch belonging to a neighbouring pack, so it will be fun to see how they turn out, also!FrenchyPoo Fagnasty posted:It's interesting that your aunt and uncle have 'pet' dogs as well as the pack. My parents did the same thing when they were breeding labs. We had the breeders and then at least one 'pet'. Yup, there is a big distinction between the hounds and the pet dogs. One of the major dividers in my uncle's set up is that the hounds would only ever come into the house if they were very sick indeed. For example, this is from an email my aunt sent me a few weeks ago; Unfortunately little Justice has died. David (one of the G___ vets) had been up on Friday to put down old Lapwing & Merlin. He examined Justice and said she was not in pain so we decided to leave it for a few days and see if we could get her to eat. She just got weaker and weaker and the end came quite quickly without her ever really suffering. When we got home on Saturday evening JS let her out to wander around and she came in to the house, where I gave her some milk. She lapped it up fairly eagerly, but about 10 mins later threw it back up. She then went in to a rapid decline, staggering when she tried to walk. We made up a comfy bed with an old bed-spread in a big cardboard box and lay her down in it, and she died during the night, without ever moving. I think it must have been some kind of cancer. So, in a way the house represents a sort of symbolic threshold between 'pet' and 'hound' (sorry, I'm studying anthropology at uni ).A couple of you have mentioned the lemon colouring - our pack used to be nearly all lemon and white; it's only in recent years that we've introduced more tricolour lines. Tricolour is a lot showier than lemon and white, which is why it predominates among Kennel Club pedigrees - but it doesn't show up half so well against ploughed fields or grassy hillsides! Lemon hounds fairly gleam as they run across the landscape, which is very useful if you are following them from a field or two away. At the end of the day, though, no good hound is a bad colour .
larasndar fucked around with this message at 20:19 on May 25, 2007 |
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May 25, 2007 20:15
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This thread is so awesome, I love seeing all the beagle pictures. This video comes to mind.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZexPPDLXRA
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May 25, 2007 21:40
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notsoape posted:Prior to those two my Aunt and Uncle had another Glen of Imaal (Duster) Ah Glens, the breed where everything that would be conformationally wrong in other breeds is just fine and dandy for the Glen. They honestly make me think  every time I see them....Anyway, great thread, wonderful Beagles. It's great seeing dogs do what they're bred for.
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May 26, 2007 00:40
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About the Glen, the only thing I noticed was that it was very fat--he needs to follow the lead of those Beagles and get moving, he he. But, pupppppiess! Too cute! I hope Twilight continues to be a great mom, and sorry about the one little pup that didn't make it . Congrats on the new "A" litter--hope they all make awesome hunters (to go BEAGLING with--I still love that word ).
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May 26, 2007 02:38
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SelmaDVangel posted:About the Glen, the only thing I noticed was that it was very fat--he needs to follow the lead of those Beagles and get moving, he he. They all look like that, Selma.  Anyway, OP, do you actually work your terriers at all? I know terriers worked with hound packs on fox hunts, but do they with beagles too?
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May 26, 2007 02:58
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SelmaDVangel posted:About the Glen, the only thing I noticed was that it was very fat--he needs to follow the lead of those Beagles and get moving, he he. She's really not. Firstly, she's 12 years old; secondly, she is fairly big all round as far as Glens go - she's leggy, long in the back and broad generally. This is why she is a neutered pet . She gets the same exercise as the beagles in the evenings, and regularly takes excursions into the Mourne Mountains. She's fine, especially for an old lady    Such a good girl SolanaSkyes posted:Anyway, OP, do you actually work your terriers at all? I know terriers worked with hound packs on fox hunts, but do they with beagles too? Beagle packs don't use terriers, no - mostly because hares don't go to earth! Hares live totally in the open, crouching into 'forms' to sleep. Even when they give birth, they disperse the leverets over a wide area and go visit them in succession to suckle them at night. Terriers are used within the foxhound packs to dig out and flush foxes from their earths, and need to be small and nippy - a Glen would be a very bad choice! A Cairn might have more luck..  (I thought my own little dog, Meg, should get a mention .)Speaking of foxhounds, here's some shots of our local pack from last year's national hound show.    Beautiful
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May 26, 2007 03:30
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notsoape posted:Beagle packs don't use terriers, no - mostly because hares don't go to earth! Hares live totally in the open, crouching into 'forms' to sleep. Even when they give birth, they disperse the leverets over a wide area and go visit them in succession to suckle them at night. Terriers are used within the foxhound packs to dig out and flush foxes from their earths, and need to be small and nippy - a Glen would be a very bad choice! A Cairn might have more luck.. The Glen folks here in the USA are backing a new event they call Strong Dog, which is supposed to simulate the job that Glens and some of the other bigger terriers did wrestling badgers and larger prey out of dens. As a breeder/exhibitor of Skyes, I find the idea of Strong Dog events quite interesting, but it will require strong interest and an actual proven historical background before the AKC will recognize it. Edit:  http://atlanticwheatens.tripod.com/id6.html Oh god, I wish they would bring the live badgers back to this event! 
SolanaSkyes fucked around with this message at 04:21 on May 26, 2007 |
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May 26, 2007 03:42
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SolanaSkyes posted:The Glen folks here in the USA are backing a new event they call Strong Dog, which is supposed to simulate the job that Glens and some of the other bigger terriers did wrestling badgers and larger prey out of dens. As a breeder/exhibitor of Skyes, I find the idea of Strong Dog events quite interesting, but it will require strong interest and an actual proven historic background before the AKC will recognize it. Ooh, that is fascinating - obviously badger baiting has been banned for many years in the Glens' native Ireland, so it would be fascinating to see how well the basic instinct has been preserved. Certainly Anna's prey drive is very high - she is on a perpeptual crusade against the rats who inhabit our log pile, but unfortunately they are just too small and quick for her - most of the time . Speaking of achondroplasic breeds, I had a wonderful morning out with a working basset pack last season - they are so different to their show-bred counterparts! Members of the local show Basset group came out to join the field, and it was amazing to compare them to their working cousins. I didn't think to take photographs, but here is an example of a similar working pack.
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May 26, 2007 03:58
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notsoape posted:
CAIRNS!  This thread is awesome. I absolutely love seeing dogs do what they were born to do, and your Uncle's pack looks and sounds amazing. I didn't like Beagles much before this thread, but it's helping me like them a little more. I love this thread
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May 26, 2007 04:15
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notsoape posted:Speaking of achondroplasic breeds, I had a wonderful morning out with a working basset pack last season - they are so different to their show-bred counterparts! Members of the local show Basset group came out to join the field, and it was amazing to compare them to their working cousins. I didn't think to take photographs, but here is an example of a similar working pack. Wow, the working bassets look so different than the pet/show bassets I've seen. How do they compare to the beagles as far as type of prey, tracking and speed? Also your cairn is delightful! Does she ever get to visit the herd? How is the herd with outsider dogs?
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May 26, 2007 05:24
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Not to threadshit, but is it possible for you to post less B&W pictures and more colour ones? Your Beagles are gorgeous and I've never seen any gold\white ones before.
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May 26, 2007 07:06
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OP, those beagles are so amazing! It is so great to see dogs doing what they were meant to do. And I agree with Selma, 'beagling' is an awesome word. I much prefer your working beagles and those bassets in the pictures you linked to the North American show types. They seem more 'doggy' if that makes sense.
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May 26, 2007 07:13
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I love this thread, your beagles remind me of my Stanley. His build was more like theirs than the show type beagle, although he was a tricolor. Unfortunately we rescued him from a pretty bad "working" breeder who kept him in a rabbit hutch so small he could barely turn around. Stanley loved to go for a long traipse through the woods, dragging me every whichaway following random scent trails and baying when they were particularly intersting. He was good with the cats and the chickens and liked to sleep alongside my bed in the quilt I inevitably kicked off in the night. He was a great dog and I miss him a lot. Those working bassets are amazing, I'd much rather own one of them than the show type bassets.
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May 26, 2007 07:32
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FrenchyPoo Fagnasty posted:Wow, the working bassets look so different than the pet/show bassets I've seen. How do they compare to the beagles as far as type of prey, tracking and speed? Type of prey is the same - we're still on the hare (or aniseed trail, since the ban). The bassets seemed to be incredibly fast and focused on the scent, compared to the beagles. Their 'cry' was deep and beautiful - pack hounds vocalise while they are working - not quite 'AROOOO', but a sort of clattering chorus of yelps. Hard to explain . You may know that bassets are bred so low and with such pendulous ears/jowls that they sort of 'swoosh' up the scent as they run with their noses down - this happens with beagles too, but to a lesser extent. Definitely I think beagles could be called off a particular line more swiftly than the bassets I saw working that day.FrenchyPoo Fagnasty posted:Also your cairn is delightful! Does she ever get to visit the herd? How is the herd with outsider dogs? Thankyou! . She met the pack once, when she was about six months old, but found the experience a little perplexing! The beagles are pretty laid back about most things, including other dogs; the trouble is more that strange dogs might get overwhelmed and threatened by the sight of so many beagles and become aggressive themselves. Happily, the route we walk the hounds is very peaceful and we've never had any issues with encountering dog walkers or anything like that. The neighbours dogs have all got used to the sight of the hounds walking past - apart from my cousin Colin's farm collie who always comes out and tries to herd them .Hammer Floyd posted:Not to threadshit, but is it possible for you to post less B&W pictures and more colour ones? Your Beagles are gorgeous and I've never seen any gold\white ones before. But my camera focuses better in black and white, and lets me store more images . If you insist, though.. Congregating prior to a WALK, OH BOY!  I swear there are some beagles somewhere  That's better  What is this?  It doesn't smell like a hare      A costume change   Dressing up for a show display  Pineapple posted:I love this thread, your beagles remind me of my Stanley. His build was more like theirs than the show type beagle, although he was a tricolor. Unfortunately we rescued him from a pretty bad "working" breeder who kept him in a rabbit hutch so small he could barely turn around. Aww, he sounds like an excellent dog . That is so great that you managed to rescue him from such a horrible start in life and give him exactly what beagles need out of life - a nice wood with lots of interesting smells to investigate, and a good friend . Maybe I'm a little biased, but it seems to me that beagles in particular have such unrelenting faith in us as humans that it is the ultimate betrayal to take advantage of that as readily as people do. I guess I'm thinking primarily of research labs  .
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May 26, 2007 08:49
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Ohooo no you dont. Dont start bringing in Anti-Biomedical research into this. I love animals, but without Biomedical research? I wouldn't have insulin to inject and I'd be a dead man. In case you were going to tell me that I shouldn't have had a poo poo diet: I have Type 1 Diabetes which is juvenile AKA: Caused-By-poo poo-Genes Diabetes. I'll admit that it's evil. But it's a necessary evil. Would you prefer they tested on humans?
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May 26, 2007 11:36
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Hammer Floyd posted:Ohooo no you dont. Dont start bringing in Anti-Biomedical research into this. I love animals, but without Biomedical research? I wouldn't have insulin to inject and I'd be a dead man. Ohooo no you don't either. Don't start bringing biomedical research debates into this. We were talking about adorable beagles. And it is completely possible to accept the necessity of medical testing on animals while feeling that they should be treated much better than they are.
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May 26, 2007 14:01
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notsoape posted:Maybe I'm a little biased, but it seems to me that beagles in particular have such unrelenting faith in us as humans that it is the ultimate betrayal to take advantage of that as readily as people do. I guess I'm thinking primarily of research labs OP, please tell me you're not one of those SHAC freaks, because I really liked you and this thread up until now. I've worked with beagles and hounds in several labs and they have all been cared for at least as well as you care for your dogs.
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May 26, 2007 15:14
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SolanaSkyes posted:OP, please tell me you're not one of those SHAC freaks, because I really liked you and this thread up until now. I've worked with beagles and hounds in several labs and they have all been cared for at least as well as you care for your dogs. Do you people like actively scaring away decent new PI posters, or what? Wot the heck does it matter what she thinks about animal research?
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May 26, 2007 15:22
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Oops! Sorry, when I wrote that I was pretty tired and knew at the time I should be justifying myself, but was also - well - tired. No, I am not against animal research. In fact, did you ever hear on the news about the 'Pro-Test' organisation organised by Oxford University students to counteract the protests about a hypothetical primate research lab? That was a close relative, and I fully support her. I am well, well aware that animal research is a necessary aspect of modern life. I've worked with primates personally, and have a six week placement coming up working with captive (zoo) chimpanzees to study their social behaviour, with a view to improving their welfare. Yet I understand their role in making up less than 1% of all animals researched upon in the UK. I've even contemplated working in the future to ensure primate welfare and enrichment is maximised in lab situations as much as possible. So I'm not against animal research, but I am pretty big on animal welfare. What I was thinking about specifically, and what I really should have clarified, was the Huntingdon Life Sciences footage that was released a number of years ago now. Huntingdon Life Sciences is actually an institute about 20 minutes away from where I am now, which houses over 1000 beagles. In maybe 1995, an undercover investigator for the BBC disclosed footage of researchers losing patience with and beating on the beagles, because they couldn't find a vein or similar. That is what I was talking about in terms of betrayal (and what I really should have specified!). Beagles, for the most part, would never bite back. It's just not fair. However, Huntingdon admitted they had a problem, had a major staff revamp, and as far as I'm aware are up to scratch, now. That is all I was talking about. A very specific example of researchers venting their frustrations out on poor beagles, who never did anything but trust them and be good . Of course, it came out all wrong and I apologise for any offence caused. What I should have said was 'I suppose I am thinking of that Huntingdon Life footage that came out some years back '.Sorry! Am I forgiven? Can I get back to posting pictures of beagles? Edit: doing a little swift wikipedia based research, it turns out that 'SHAC' is the Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty group. I guess perhaps I am a SHAC freak? Certainly, as a 10 year old I was appalled by the footage, and thought and think that the cruelty should have been stopped. I also think that, should cruelty ever arise again, it should be stopped. But there's a difference between cruelty and a professional attitude to research. I'm not against a professional attitude to research. I don't know guys. Hope I'm not stepping on any more toes
larasndar fucked around with this message at 17:08 on May 26, 2007 |
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May 26, 2007 16:53
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notsoape posted:
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May 26, 2007 17:08
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unprofessional posted:Do this. Okay  Just to drag on the derail a little further though, I find it quite interesting that back there I managed to (albeit it sleepily) exhibit the same sort of blanket prejudice and leaping-to-assumptions that I encounter so frequently regarding my uncle's hobby/lifestyle. I think I need to emphasise that hunting quarry with hounds as an activity is actively despised by many people within the UK, and has been illegal for coming up three years now. The future of packs like this is really, really questionable. Nobody's asked me yet about how the beagles are financed, but the answer is that their upkeep is totally funded by our hunt club. People pay a subscription (and often make further donations and take part in fundraising events etc) and in return they get to come out into the countryside and watch the beagles work every saturday throughout the autumn and winter. If we lose hunt supporters, we ultimately lose the beagles (and the same goes for foxhounds, staghounds, minkhounds etc). In Scotland already, entire packs have had to be put to sleep because people simply aren't as interested in seeing hounds work artificial trails as they are live quarry. Heartbreaking .Anyhow, most people I've come into contact with outside of the beagling world don't really know how they feel about hunting, but sort of instinctively think it's wrong. 'Toffs on horseback poncing about the countryside ripping up defenceless animals? Nah, should be banned'. I used to get pretty upset by encountering this attitude all the time, but then I realised that it was a waste of energy. If somebody hasn't actively participated in something, then all they have to go on is hearsay and what is presented to them by the media. The hunting community has been grossly misrepresented by the media - as, I'm sure, has the use of canines in research labs - simply because the reality doesn't make for a good story. Rather than getting upset about people's attitudes, pretty much all I try to do now is give them a more balanced and informed perspective on the issue, if they want to hear it. If they've heard the facts and still disapprove, well, that's their perogative and at least I tried. Here is an example of the attitude I'm talking about 
larasndar fucked around with this message at 18:27 on May 26, 2007 |
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May 26, 2007 18:23
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I would so love to out hunting hares with a pack of beagles, that'd be the most awesome experience. When I have a house with a yard and woods again I definitely want to own a beagle (or more!) again, such great dogs but they need places to track and run.
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May 26, 2007 18:30
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God, that guy in the video was really really crap at arguing his case. "Fox hunters are scum. Fox hunters are upper class. Upper class people are scum. Scum, scum, scum, scum, scum." I just wanted to slap him and say "Ok, you've made a point. Now back it up with evidence/argument. Reiterating your point over and over again without anything supporting it isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you" People like that piss me off. Even if they're on the same 'side' as I am, they annoy me. Sure, have an opinion. Sure, share an opinion... but try to make it an informed opinion, and to present actual facts with it. Sorry for the derail. Back to the previously scheduled "awww"ing at puppy pictures...
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May 26, 2007 18:52
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Silkenray posted:God, that guy in the video was really really crap at arguing his case. "Fox hunters are scum. Fox hunters are upper class. Upper class people are scum. Scum, scum, scum, scum, scum." Well, exactly. Most anti-hunt protesters have a bit more substance to their argument, though - and equally, a lot of hunt supporters do themselves no favours by dismissing anybody who disagrees with them as 'tree hugging hippies'. Here is a protest song written by a singer whose music I enjoy, and this upset me far more than hearing the unreasoned opinions presented in the first video. It frustrates me so much, because the socio-political issues raised (class divides, foot and mouth, loss of rural community, etc) are very real, but attributing blame to hunting community is really missing the point, as far as I can see. The whole thing's just riddled with inaccuracies, the biggest of which being the idea that hunting is the sole pursuit of the upper classes/landed gentry, and therefore an attack on hunting is an attack on pompous, wealthy landowners. So, so wrong. And, oh, the miners' strike? Plenty of packs have been historically associated with mining communities, thanks  . But this is the public perception, and this is what the hunting community is going to have to overcome if they want their lifestyle to have any future.Sorry, sidetracked; anyhow, here is a video of the 'A' and 'Z' litter out for a walk. 
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May 26, 2007 23:16
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notsoape posted:Edit: doing a little swift wikipedia based research, it turns out that 'SHAC' is the Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty group. I guess perhaps I am a SHAC freak? Certainly, as a 10 year old I was appalled by the footage, and thought and think that the cruelty should have been stopped. I also think that, should cruelty ever arise again, it should be stopped. But there's a difference between cruelty and a professional attitude to research. I'm not against a professional attitude to research. SHAC was started a few years ago by a group of AR freaks that decided to target a family run business that raised guinea pigs for research labs. They used the typical thuggery associated with the ALF-type crowd....vandalism, etc. The guinea pig farm eventually shut down, the owners citing fear for their family's safety as a reason. The group then decided they had bigger fish to fry and with that "win" under their belts, SHAC was formed to target and shut down Huntington. Unfortunately for them, they went from being the big fish in the little pond...bullying a small business, to basically being plankton in a vast sea. As SHAC has grown more desperate, they have resorted to a campaign of "direct action" to further their cause, which eventually led to the conviction of the SHAC 7 in the USA. Anyway, SHAC is of the same ilk as those morons that would booby trap fox hunts with wires to trip the horses and such. I'm pretty sure I know the way you feel about that.... BTW, I also spent 3 years working in a primate lab with Rhesus and Baboons. /derail Anyway, more Beagle pics and stories please, and toss in a few more Glen and Cairn photos for the Terrier people! SolanaSkyes fucked around with this message at 23:23 on May 26, 2007 |
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May 26, 2007 23:20
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SolanaSkyes posted:SHAC stuff Ohh - from skim reading the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article, I thought they were a peaceful protest group! I am sympathetic towards people who have animal rights concerns, and those who exercise their right to peaceful protest, but like any sane person I am perplexed and more than a little terrified by militant and violent 'campaigners'. That's the same 'organisation' which has been linked with the desecration of a guinea-pig breeder's grave, right? Jesus. Here's a couple of characters from the kennels.  Nugget. Nugget is now the eldest male hound in kennels since we lost Merlin recently. His mother was Willow, from the first litter to be born when the hounds moved here. She was a biscuity shade of lemon and white, and she had one white speckled ear which has been passed down to a number of her offspring. If I had to pick my five all time favourite beagles, Willow would definitely be up there. She was very perceptive - that sort of dog where you really feel there's a strong mutual understanding at work, if that makes any sense. Nugget doesn't really resemble his mum at all - nor his dad, Transit, nor the rest of his littermates (Noble, Nettle, Nutmeg and Nimble). Where they were all quite leggy and elegant, Nugget is short, sturdy and slightly bow legged - a bit of a basset throwback . He has enormous ears, as you can see, and very expressive eyes.Nugget is also the cheekiest hound in the world. He's always had his eye on top dog position - in his youth he'd tend to push the boundaries with my uncle, although he has mellowed a lot with age. You remember how I said Icon had effortless respect from the rest of the pack? Nugget is the opposite; he tries very hard to throw his weight around, but none of the other hounds really buy it. Dominance conflicts rarely arise within the pack, parly because we carefully manage who is housed with who, and partly because my uncle is so firmly established as pack leader. A small number of younger hounds (particularly younger male hounds) take a while to get used to the hierarchy, however. This could include causing confrontations among the rest of the beagles, or trying to outwit the human members of the pack. The former rarely gets anywhere, as the older beagles are well used to little upstarts getting too big for their boots and pay no attention to them .One of the common tactics of a young beagle with delusions of grandeur is to refuse to come in from the paddock after they've been let out for a legs stretch while we clean the lodges out. Usually the routine is that as soon as they hear the outside doors rattle, the pack will come charging over to the kennels and come inside. So Nugget, in his day (and a couple of others since) would decide 'Hey, I'm not coming in! I'm going to stay outside all by myself and there's nothing you can do about it; JUST YOU WATCH'. This is absolutely an attention seeking tactic. What they want more than anything is for you to come out and chase after them in a futile attempt to catch them. Coupling the unruly hound to another would be one solution, but not ideal - it's unwise to leave two hounds coupled unsupervised, and besides you want for the hound to make the choice to come inside, rather than be dragged. The method that tends to work best for me at least is just to absolutely ignore the hound, and get on with your business. I don't even look at the hound out of the corner of my eye, I just get on with wheeling out muck/making up food etc. I've even been known to take the puppies for a long walk, leaving the hound still in the paddock (it's totally enclosed and safe). Typically the hound will go through the following stages; 1) 'Look at me! I am outside and having SO MUCH FUN! *runs around crazily*. I win! Stupid humans! *looks over to see if you have noticed yet*' 2) 'Well, I'm still having fun, I guess. Look, I'm going to lay down right here and chew on this branch to prove it. Although, you know, it is a bit lonely out here. But I'm still having fun!' 3) 'Have they forgotten about me? Where are they? I'm only a little puppy! What will happen when it gets dark? '4) 'THERE YOU ARE!! The humans have come to rescue me, oh hooray, how could you leave me out there all alone I'll be so good next time, I promise *runs inside kennel to join buddies*'Obviously you don't reprimand the beagle when he comes in (I don't make a fuss either, just calmly let them back into their lodge). The idea is that they've made their own decision to stay out, which has led to them feeling insecure, and then made their own decision to finally come back in, which has made them feel relieved and safe again. It takes a couple of goes at it, but eventually they end up making the decision to come back in with the rest of the pack all by themselves. I remember when I was younger, a friend of my uncle's was looking after the hounds for him in the summer, and spent about 20 minutes chasing one of them (probably Nugget, actually!) all around, ended getting very flustered and when the hound was finally caught, obviously what he was thinking was 'Well that was fun! Stupid human! Sucks that I have to go back to the kennel now, but there's always next time!' We've never bred from Nugget, although he has plenty of nieces and nephews - but none that quite have his quirky looks or temperement . He's one of a kind, pretty much, and I do love him to bits - even if he can be naughty!
larasndar fucked around with this message at 01:22 on May 27, 2007 |
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May 27, 2007 01:20
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 Who on earth is this?  Everyone, meet Verdict. To put it nicely, Verdict saw life from a slightly different perspective to all of the other beagles. But, let's face it - mostly he was just wonky Verdict was born to Nettle, sister of Nugget. She had great difficulty delivering him, to the extent that my uncle actually thought that he was dead and stuck. This is a very dangerous situation for the puppies remaining in utero, as they could start potentially suffocate by starting to breathe while still in the amniotic sac, so my uncle made the decision to gently ease two fingers between the pup's head and pull him firmly out as Nettle strained. To our amazement, the puppy was still alive - but it looked as though he was either having great difficulty breathing or his jaw was dislocated - his mouth was just hanging open . I was pretty sure he wasn't going to make it, since I didn't think he'd be able to form a vacuum latch to suckle properly, but we decided it wouldn't hurt to give him a chance. He was quickly named Verdict - as in, 'What's the..' .Surprisingly, though, Verdict managed to suckle quite happily, and his jaw soon strengthened up. However, it was quickly evident that his jaw hadn't been dislocated at all; rather, he lacked muscle control generally. He leaned. Take a look at him as a wonky puppy;  As he grew, it became clear that he wasn't just wonky, but also a little  . He would bark a lot in kennels - not at anything in particular; just enjoying the sound of his own voice. Often he would walk round and round in circles, or if he gort really excited he would hop up on his hind legs and sort of bounce his weight so that he was standing upright (where the other hounds would just jump up against the railings). Also, he liked to chew idly on the tails and ears of the other beagles. Here is an example; You can just about see that he is chomping down on another hound's tail .Nonetheless, he was a real trier and really built up his muscle tone - he was strapping, but still wonky. And he was a real sweetheart, both because of and in spite of his flaws. We kept him on for a season, but unfortunately it really didn't work out - he would get stuck behind fences and just stand there barking, waiting for somebody to come rescue him. So we found him what seemed an ideal home - a local gamekeeper with a young girl to play with and lots of forest to explore. But he had only been there a few days when we got a call to say he had gone missing - he turned up about 3 miles away, back towards our place. He was trying to make his way back home . (Because I am a meanie though, my first reaction was 'I'm impressed he managed to walk so far in a straight line' ). The story doesn't end particularly happily, I'm afraid - we had to put him to sleep . The way he was behaving in kennels he would have ended up pissing off the other hounds eventually, and he certainly wouldn't have been able to hold his own in a fight. My uncle has always felt guilty for possibly causing his problems at birth, but I honestly think that he had co-ordination problems from the start - the fact that he got stuck probably means that his muscles weren't working quite as they should. I think we made the right decision to give him a chance, also - we knew we had the facilities to look after him, and wanted to see whether he would grow out of his problems - it's just really unfortunate that he didn't, and that he wasn't suitable for a pet home. But we wouldn't have known unless we tried. 
larasndar fucked around with this message at 07:48 on May 27, 2007 |
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May 27, 2007 07:44
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I noticed you posted 2 pictures of beagles with tails of other dogs in their mouths (Icon and Verdict). Is this common beagle/hound behavior? Is it a pack thing? RIP Verdict
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May 27, 2007 16:32
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Hadra posted:I noticed you posted 2 pictures of beagles with tails of other dogs in their mouths I think in Icon's picture he isn't actually biting on the tail, it's just being wagged in his face . We don't see it as a behaviour among the older hounds, no - that's part of why Verdict was getting to be so obnoxious . Interesting fact though - Icon was Verdict's dad!Puppies will chew on each other pretty often, but it's all part and parcel of learning the dos and don'ts of play fighting. It is really interesting to see the puppies stay together as a litter way past the point that show or pet puppies would have found new homes. As they get bigger and their teeth and jaws get stronger, they really do start to mediate themselves in the way you read about in dog training books - a puppy bites down too hard and the other will yelp and stop playing - often bowling the original puppy over and walking off in disgust. They soon figure out amongst themselves what is and isn't acceptable - which is why it's obviously so important to keep a handle on puppy mouthing and biting in a pet home context. They need to know that if they bite too hard it hurts you, and that it pisses you off so much that you don't want to play with them any more. No need for 'alpha rolls' or anything ( ), just a loud 'yelp' and then standing up and walking away should do it.Remember how I said about Willow's white spotted ear?  Meet Yonder. Yonder is Willow's great grandaughter (Willow -> Hero -> Quaker -> Yonder). She is also one of the little tiny puppies up at the top of the page with Meadow there Hound showing differs in a lot of ways from Kennel Club showing. The beagles are not stacked, and there is no hands-on contact between judge and hound. Rather, the hounds are let off lead and biscuits are thrown for them by the handler so that their movement can be assessed, and then the handler stands in front of them and gets them to stand still on a concrete slab so that their conformation can be studied. 'Unentered' hounds who have not yet hunted are shown seperately from entered hounds, and there is also usually a 'brood bitch'/ 'stallion' class for those who have produced offspring, and a 'veteran' class for former champions. One of the most interesting classes, though, is the 'couples' class. In breeding, you aspire for a 'level' pack - hounds that are well matched in height and build. So the couples class is a chance to demonstrate how similar your hounds are. Basically, two hounds are judged together and assessed for both quality and similarity of type. Take a look at Yonder and her sister Yasmine right here;  Theoretically, colour isn't supposed to matter - if you had a solid black hound and a solid white hound and they were built identically, they should win. However, in practice it really helps if the hounds have similar markings .Some shows go a step further and have a 'two couple' class. You guessed it - four hounds, judged together for quality and similarity. Take a look at our entry last year;  That's Justice, her daughter Quota and Quota's nieces Yonder and Yasmine. Couples have to be the same sex, but for the two-couple class you are allowed to have both sexes. (We came second, for the record - Justice and Quota won the couples class, though - and Justice went on to become reserve champion of the whole show! (aka best working bitch in Ireland that year  )Interestingly, I've noticed that at Crufts for the last couple of years they've had a 'Breeder's Stakes', which seems to follow the same idea as our couple/two couple classes. Are there any equivalent competitions in the American show world? Here's a video of Yonder and Yasmine to finish up with . 
larasndar fucked around with this message at 08:50 on May 28, 2007 |
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May 27, 2007 22:49
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Oh, and here is an example of exactly what I was talking about with Nugget. Watch as he squares up to Traveller (who is the biggest hound we have, and also a compete softie ), and Traveller is just like 'Pft, whatever Nugget'. Also; the beagle rootling in the straw nearest to the camera at the start of the clip is Twilight, and when the camera pans you can see Meadow right at the end .
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May 27, 2007 23:16
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Yay! More Beagles! Sorry for semi-threadshitting and nearly derailing the thread.
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May 28, 2007 05:42
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OP, what kind of health testing do you do on your breeding stock? Do hunting beagle line have the same kind of health issues that the show bred ones do?quote:That's the same 'organisation' which has been linked with the desecration of a guinea-pig breeder's grave, right? Jesus. Yes, that would be the same fine, upstanding members of our society. Although I think "officially" SHAC has denied any involvement. quote:Interestingly, I've noticed that at Crufts for the last couple of years they've had a 'Breeder's Stakes', which seems to follow the same idea as our couple/two couple classes. Are there any equivalent competitions in the American show world? I think some individual breed clubs offer similar classes at their national specialties. There are also a few Futurities, either breed or Group specific. SolanaSkyes fucked around with this message at 16:18 on May 28, 2007 |
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May 28, 2007 16:10
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SolanaSkyes posted:OP, what kind of health testing do you do on your breeding stock? Do hunting beagle line have the same kind of health issues that the show bred ones do? We don't do genetic screening, and I honestly don't think you'd find a working pack of hounds who do. However, you could say we operate 'phenotypic screening'. With our pack we have the luxury of knowing, for the most part, the entire medical history of not only our puppies' direct ancestors but also those ancestors' littermates. We keep detailed medical records, which I'm in the process of moving onto a computerised database to make looking up specific syndromes or hounds easier. It's not a foolproof screening method, obviously, due to the possibility of recessively inherited disorders - but it's the traditional way, and the hunting community is pretty slow to move with the times. Mostly, our hounds are fit and healthy. We certainly do not pay out 40 x the average pet owner's vet bills, and those which we do are mostly to do with injury acquired in the field - a ripped nail or pulled muscle, for example. There have been significant exceptions, though, over the years. * Cleft palate - two of the puppies from the 'R' litter were born with a cleft palate. Both were an unusual livery colour - I have a tentative theory that some rare hound colours are associated with genetic disorders, but I couldn't say for sure. In any case, we haven't bred from either of the two surviving offspring - Ranter and Regal. The sire and dam were Icon and Gracious - this was Gracious' only litter, and none off Icon's other offspring have suffered the same condition. * Cherry eye - this has revealed itself recently; Meadow and her son Tiercel both developed the condition. Obviously, though, my uncle is breeding from Twilight. Really, in his mind cherry eye falls under the 'minor injury' category of health concerns - it is permanently fixable by a simple procedure which, on the past two occasions, has been performed for free by the vet at the agricultural college where my uncle works. If the condition were to become more prevalent among the pack - say, hypothetically, if most of this 'B' litter developed it - he would probably be thinking in terms of breeding strategy to counteract it. * Seizures - oh man, the 'P' litter .The 'P' litter were born to Harmony by B+S Wisdom. Seven beautiful, strong tricolour puppies - Ploughman, Pilot, Passion, Playful, Puzzle, Pebble, Patchwork. And then there was Precious. Precious was born smaller than her littermates, and with front legs which splayed out - this is likely do to nutritional leeching, which can happen in large litters. Like Verdict, though, we decided to give her a chance. And, you know what - just like Verdict she grew stronger every day, and she tried so hard. I was 16 and this was my first stint looking after the kennels for my uncle, under the supervision of my grandmother and with the help of our neighbours' children. I took over when they were about 5 weeks old and saw them through to 8 weeks - during that time I would take Precious out for a brief time every day just to work with her on the grass so that she could find purchase, supporting her chest with my hand. And it worked. Once she got to be about 12 weeks old, there was no difference between her and the rest of the 'P' gang - she was just always a little bit smaller. Every single one of this litter suffered from seizures. They could be running, or just chilling out in the kennels and - pow, they'd fall over and start fitting. Obviously this was extremely dangerous, particularly in the kennel environment where the others could easily have got freaked out and started to attack the fitting hound/each other. The first puppy, Puzzle, died at around four months old - my uncle just found her dead in the puppy lodge one morning. And, over the next six months, three more pups were found dead until only Precious, Pilot, Patchwork and Passion were left. The vet said he'd never seen anything like it, and wasn't able to diagnose precisely what the issue was. He did believe that it wasn't genetic - rather, the pups had all been exposed to something which had screwed up their liver. We figured the only thing it could possibly be was the new kennel my uncle had built out in the puppy run, which (we supposed) could have had small traces of lead based paint on it . You live and learn. Anyhow, the three remaining pups went about three months without any of them fitting, and we were holding our breath and crossing our fingers - but then one morning he found Pilot dead in kennels . At that stage, he decided to put the remaining three hounds to sleep.That is the only instance in my uncle's 40 years of working with the pack that a syndrome has devestated an entire litter like that. As I say, the vet couldn't come to any definite conclusions as to the cause of the fitting. Epilepsy is a genetic disorder associated with beagles, yet it isn't usually lethal within the first year. Thinking logically, also, if this specific disorder was hereditory then the reproductive fitness of those afflicted with it would be nil - so it wouldn't persist within the genome. So most likely it was caused by my uncle using old wood to construct that puppy house .Those have been the absolute worst case scenarios, though. In the vast majority of cases our beagles are born healthy and live healthy - absolutely no problems with joints, hips or patellas. Same goes for the rest of the packs in the UK/Ireland, although I'm sure they all have a couple of horror stories. Now for something completely different - have a few bonus pictures of Fatty  
larasndar fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 28, 2007 |
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May 28, 2007 19:43
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You know what, this thread had been inaccurately titled 'image heavy!' for way too long. This is Image. Heavy, isn't he?  Now, what we have with Image is a stirling example of how a working beagle should not look. His front legs are crooked, his back is way too long and his back end is practically as high as his head. And to think that he is littermate to Icon, one of the nicest hounds we've ever bred! If there's one thing I've learned over the last 15 years it is that stock breeding is an art, not a science. In this particular case, I think my uncle used the Vesper/Tinsel breeding which produced the 'I' litter to level out some of the faults seen in Vesper, the sire. He was a beautiful, heavy, old hound type, but had some of the bassety features that you see in Image here. Tinsel had a much more balanced, beagly shape. This particular sort of alchemy led to a litter with a lot of variation in it - In the case of Icon, to great effect; in the case of Image - not so much. But, you know, we went on to breed from Icon (three times, I think) and he has produced some really stunning offspring (and one or two oddballs ) - and we'll breed from the stunners in the future, and just enjoy the company of the oddballs while we have them .I'd be interested to hear from the showdog side how your attitude towards matchmaking and breeding quality compares. Do you guys tend to look for similarity of type in the sire/dam, or would you try to even out the faults of one or other? I'm guessing consistancy of quality is pretty important, but I'd also imagine that of any litter of pups, some would turn out to be pet quality. Is that the case? What percentage of show to pet quality would be expected in a litter? Getting back to Image though, and in spite of his physical shortcomings - man, he was a brilliant dog. I would have loved to have him as a pet, actually. Where Icon was aloof and sniffy, Image absolutely loved to be around people. He was never hyper or pushy, though - just loved it when you took the time to make a fuss of him, or take him out on a walk by himself. He was a real peacemaker in kennels - quite similar to Smuggler in that regard. He seemed like the sort of dog that views the world with a wry grin, if that makes sense - he never took anything too seriously. One year at our annual open day we decided to hold 'hound racing' throughout the day - 6 or 7 kids would hold a hound each at the top of the field, my uncle would stand at the bottom and blow the horn (the way he communicates with the pack out hunting), and we would record who passed a mark first - then go on to semi finals, finals and so on. We had a lot of fun coming up with 'racing names' for the beagles (I think Image was 'Man in the Mirror'), and the visitors placed small bets on whoever they fancied. And, do you know what happened? Image won his heat, he won the semi-finals and he won the finals. So much for conformation! And so much for all of us with 'inside tips' who had placed £1 on the leggy, streamlined guys . But also .Image is no longer with us, I'm sad to say. He lived to a good age, but one morning I let the hounds out for their breakfast and noticed that something was different - he had a bit of a delicate problem. His balls were enormous!  A quick trip to the vet later, and it turned out he had torn 'something', possibly while jumping onto or off the bench? We'll never know. Anyhow, he was going to have to be castrated . My uncle was of the opinion that the operation would put him at a disadvantage in kennels, and besides - we'd already sort of decided that the previous season would be his last, and had pencilled in a home with him with a friend who had really fallen in love with him a few years ago, and always swore that he'd take Image in his retirement. My uncle had rung him a few weeks earlier, and he had been a bit non-commital. When we rang him back this time, he backed out . We made the decision to have Image put to sleep rather than go through with the operation. Even knowing that he'd lived a relatively long and extremely happy life, it was still hard to say goodbye. He was a good pal  .
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May 29, 2007 04:30
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