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A good question would be why exactly Guts meant so utterly much to Griffith that losing him was so earthshattering.
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Jul 7, 2007 07:23
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Zorak posted:A good question would be why exactly Guts meant so utterly much to Griffith that losing him was so earthshattering. I really believe that Griffith felt that Guts was the key person he could count on to help him win Midland. Guts had literally become Griffith's right hand. He helped assassinate the king's brother, he defeated the strongest general in the opposing army, he helped carry out the assassination of the queen and her stooges, all with no questions asked. It was like losing his number 1 resource. I think Griffith thought all his hope for an easy takeover was lost with Guts.
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Jul 7, 2007 14:43
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I think it was more about the shock that something he "possessed" could be taken from him, or walk away of its own free will, because he wasn't strong enough to contain it.
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Jul 8, 2007 21:29
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Mr. Deathy posted:I think it was more about the shock that something he "possessed" could be taken from him, or walk away of its own free will, because he wasn't strong enough to contain it.
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Jul 8, 2007 21:46
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Zorak posted:A good question would be why exactly Guts meant so utterly much to Griffith that losing him was so earthshattering. It was also the first time in his life he had ever lost. Casca says it somewhere in the narration around that scene, "the first loss that Griffith ever knew." His entire life, he'd always gotten what he wanted. He had to lie, beg, cheat, steal and whore himself out for it, but he'd never, ever lost. It was a crippling blow to his confidence, and what's worse is that it came from someone who he considered subordinate. Guts was his right-hand man, yes, but the pecking order was clearly established. Guts flat-out tells him to give him orders when he's considering assassinating Julius - that he'll unquestioningly obey. So it was a combination of someone beneath you - and for all his charisma Griffith has a very clear idea that he sits at the top of the heap, and everybody else is below him - and losing for the first time. His power - the power to make people love him, even as he's beating them, because he's beautiful and charismatic - failed. Guts not only beat him in a duel, but had the strength to just turn and walk away from him, which nobody had ever done before. Guts was capable of leaving him behind. He freaked out and needed to reaffirm his dominance and his personal power - hence immediately running to Charlotte, because here was the girl the world said was too far above him for him to ever touch. His whole life was denying his own roots and being born in the gutter - that's why he decided to be king. The best way to reassure himself of his internal power was to gently caress her silly, because getting her was the culmination of his extreme ambition. And we all know how well that turned out. It's very classical tragedy - one overheard conversation destroying everything.
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Jul 9, 2007 03:58
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Zorak posted:A good question would be why exactly Guts meant so utterly much to Griffith that losing him was so earthshattering. Also, fangirls would have you know that Griffith was in love with Guts. That is, if there were fangirls of Berserk. I think most are scared off by the blood and gore. quote:Guts had literally become Griffith's right hand. This is not what literally means, hilariously so. (Someone draw a Guts hand puppet, quick!)
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Jul 9, 2007 04:07
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Well, Guts did stir up a lot of different emotions in Griffith - the thought of him was the only thing that kept Griffith sane during his year in the dungeon. Also, I wonder if Griffith knew that he'd be caught when he seduced Charlotte? It's hard to tell - it was either a spur-of-the-moment gamble, or he did it out of self-loathing due to losing Guts. He seemed pretty resigned to his fate when caught by the guards afterwards. Not to mention, instead of sucking up to the King and trying to bargain for freedom, he called him a worthless child molester. 
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Jul 9, 2007 04:24
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Hatter106 posted:Well, Guts did stir up a lot of different emotions in Griffith - the thought of him was the only thing that kept Griffith sane during his year in the dungeon. I wouldn't call post-prison Griffith sane, didn't he still try to rape Caska and kill Guts before he could even hardly move? Hatter106 posted:He seemed pretty resigned to his fate when caught by the guards afterwards. If you go back and look at the page, he only surrenders after reaching for his sword and finds it missing. If he had any idea what was in store for him he probably would have tried to cut his way out anyway. Also, the prison break has one of my favorite moments in the anime: Ahahahha now you're all trapped in there with him this door is three times as thick as a normal door you'll never esca GUTS SMASH I Feel Every Flower That is Screaming to Consume You
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Jul 9, 2007 05:46
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Shame the anime skipped an entire volume of the break though.
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Jul 9, 2007 16:42
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^^^^^ If they would have thrown in Skullknight and Puck into the anime, it would have made things more confusing. Sindai/Mr. Deathy got it right for the most part about why Gut's leaving the Band of the Hawk was so mind shattering for him. Griffith had pretty much gotten everything he wanted by his way. With his favorite/most prized tool Gut's walking out on him on his own, it was just unfathomable. Also Femto was reincarnated into "NEO" Griffith. The reincarnation ceremony is a super rare thing that happens every 1000 years. One question that a lot of us have is to what extent does neo Griffith power wise have of Femto. He hasn't needed to use any of his power's at all so far.
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Jul 10, 2007 05:41
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kuroikenshi posted:He hasn't needed to use any of his power's at all so far. In a way he has. "Destiny" and "fate" have been constantly throwing things at Griffith's feet really well. All of the strongest Knights in the world (if they were Apostles before hand is questionable but actually irrelevant) showed up and pledged themselves to him immediately. He's been able to move around like a god due to everyone's dreams of him as a saviour (such as the pope). Furthermore, fate has shown to be his hand as well in battle. The "chance gusts of wind" that showed up "just in time" to force the Gankusha emperor away, for instance.
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Jul 10, 2007 12:14
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The way it's going, looks like there's a good chance that Griffith will be the King of Midland by the time Guts & co. get back from Elfhelm. They'll have their work cut out for 'em...
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Jul 11, 2007 14:07
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Well there's gonna be some big issues to deal with if that's the case. Firstly, no one in the entire group really knows what Guts' goal is or anything about his past (Well, maybe Puck, but I can't recall him finding out), except obviously for Caska but she certainly doesn't count (yet). Secondly, none of them has any reason to dislike Griffith and even if Gutts explained they might not be up for the idea of taking on an entire army just for the sake of his own revenge plot. I think the story is going to take some big turns at this Elfhelm place. Some of the biggest progression since well....the eclipse?
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Jul 11, 2007 14:14
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http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=176930 Latest RAW that I have uploaded. Remember, its in the moon language so its just the pretty pictures!
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Jul 12, 2007 23:48
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Mr. Deathy posted:I think the story is going to take some big turns at this Elfhelm place. Some of the biggest progression since well....the eclipse? Puck knows about Guts' past, he has seen Guts' memories/feeling a few times enough to know about the Eclipse and Caska's "incident". Puck prolly knows about the whole Band of the Hawk thing too if he can put things together. Besides him I think Serpico will figure it out eventually if not told, he does have a very extensive knowledge of all military dealings in the recent past and in the current time. Guts' has made a vague reference to his past when Ishidro mentioned the raider leader for the Hawks once in that huge city.
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Jul 13, 2007 06:58
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VVVV Edit: Sorry Im blind.
maxxheadcheese fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Jul 13, 2007 |
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Jul 13, 2007 11:49
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Guts looks like the surface of the moon now.maxxheadcheese posted:287 RAW out: Do you have kuroikenshi on ignore or did you not read 2 posts up?
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Jul 13, 2007 12:16
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Crazed_Capybara_Rider posted:Guts looks like the surface of the moon now. Im just blind, sorry. 
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Jul 13, 2007 13:10
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kuroikenshi posted:http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=176930 discusson about the chapter: drat, Gutts is looking pretty hosed up. And it looks like Farneze is learning astral projection. I thought I was going to hate Farneze from the beginning and wasn't too pumped when she joined the "team," but it's actually starting to look like she might be useful. Poor Gutts, though. A good heart tainted by evil, all he wants to do is help Caska but she keeps running from him, causing him more pain. loving Griffith.
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Jul 13, 2007 18:41
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ichiban posted:discusson about the chapter: drat, Gutts is looking pretty hosed up. And it looks like Farneze is learning astral projection. I thought I was going to hate Farneze from the beginning and wasn't too pumped when she joined the "team," but it's actually starting to look like she might be useful. Poor Gutts, though. A good heart tainted by evil, all he wants to do is help Caska but she keeps running from him, causing him more pain. loving Griffith. Guts is not, and has never been, good. He is an extremely morally ambiguous hero, and he almost raped Casca at one point. The relationship between Griffith, Casca and Guts is so hosed up that you absolutely cannot lay the blame for it at any one of their feet. Brief list of Guts' accomplishments: murder, assassination, attempted rape, child slaughter, and that's just off the top of my head. His character is strength and will. "Good" has nothing to do with it.
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Jul 13, 2007 19:28
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TheFuzzyLumpkin posted:Guts is not, and has never been, good. He is an extremely morally ambiguous hero, and he almost raped Casca at one point. The relationship between Griffith, Casca and Guts is so hosed up that you absolutely cannot lay the blame for it at any one of their feet. Guts will do whatever is neccesary to complete his dream, and take his revenge. He will not risk himself to save others, unless it will benefit his own grand plan. In a way, he is similar to Pre-Demon Griffith in that respect. Even before the Black Swordsman arc ends, we see this multiple times.
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Jul 13, 2007 20:27
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J.A.B.C. posted:Guts will do whatever is neccesary to complete his dream, and take his revenge. He will not risk himself to save others, unless it will benefit his own grand plan. In a way, he is similar to Pre-Demon Griffith in that respect. Even before the Black Swordsman arc ends, we see this multiple times. Maybe before Griffith's reincarnation, but Guts has gotten alot more laid back now. He's moved away from just "revenge" to also caring about Caska again as well as his comrades. Griffith saw his comrades as expendable pawns just useful to getting his goal. Guts on the other hand honestly trusts and even respects them. And yeah, Guts isn't without his problems. The "Berserker" side of him is wild and uncontrollable. The armor in a way just brings it out all the time and to its fullest. Before he had to get angry, and even then he had some control; now, he loses everything with the armor. Sometimes I wonder if The Idea created Griffith to create Guts, rather then the other way around, with Guts' rebellion not just being a result of what it took to create Femto but rather what the point of creating Femto was. Zorak fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Jul 13, 2007 |
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Jul 13, 2007 20:42
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One thing I noticed, and please bear with me as this is from the anime... Femto, upon his birth from the sacrifices, did what Griffith had wanted to do to Guts after his torture. Think about it. Guts had been the one pillar that he had his dreams upon. His sword, his hand of death, and the one person he could truly trust. By breaking away from the Hawks, he effectively shattered his dreams, starting his mad dash to secure the throne, then his downward spiral into oblivion. However, after he was saved, he learned of Caska and Guts' love, and realized he also wanted her. Upon his rebirth, he began to systematically take away everything. His love, his friends, his eye, and his arm...he would leave him for dead, in misery and torment, while he left with everything Guts had fought for, leaving him unable to do anything about it. In his mind, a fitting revenge for the man who ruined his life. This is what I gathered from the Anime, though, since i'm still in the Black Swordsman Arc of the Manga. And I am appalled at how much the anime is simply a 'cliffnotes' for about half of the Berserk story.
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Jul 13, 2007 22:45
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Honestly I don't think Griffith even cared about anyone or anything else during his transformation. The demons were mainly acting of their own will I assume and would've ripped Guts to shreds if they had any more time before the Skull Knight appeared. Griffith raping Caska was just an example of him taking something he wanted I think, although he definitely done it in front of Guts deliberately in a "gently caress you for leaving me" kind of way. There's a chapter of Berserk that was removed from the canon because Miura felt it gave away too much too early on. It's what happens during Griffith's transformation and you get more of a glimpse inside his mind in that state. My memory of that gives me a feeling that Griffith really wasn't thinking about any of his band in the least then although honestly I can only barely remember some of the dialogue. Oh and random point but I don't think you really need to spoiler things from so early on, especially pure speculation about it.
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Jul 14, 2007 00:18
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GOD DAMMIT SOMEONE loving HEAL GUTS!
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Jul 14, 2007 00:37
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Mr. Deathy posted:Well there's gonna be some big issues to deal with if that's the case. Firstly, no one in the entire group really knows what Guts' goal is or anything about his past (Well, maybe Puck, but I can't recall him finding out), except obviously for Caska but she certainly doesn't count (yet). Secondly, none of them has any reason to dislike Griffith and even if Gutts explained they might not be up for the idea of taking on an entire army just for the sake of his own revenge plot. Well, Puck was present when Guts told Rickert about the Eclipse. But yeah, the rest of his merry band are still in the dark. Chances are he'll start to tell them at some point and they'll stop him and say something like, "Your past doesn't matter, it's the person you are now who matters!"
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Jul 14, 2007 01:09
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Hatter106 posted:Well, Puck was present when Guts told Rickert about the Eclipse. But yeah, the rest of his merry band are still in the dark. Chances are he'll start to tell them at some point and they'll stop him and say something like, "Your past doesn't matter, it's the person you are now who matters!" Puck is pretty much the only one who I'd think would stick with Guts if he did that. Puck has gotten glimpses of the Eclipse from when Guts gets really emotional (since Elves are able to sense emotions), and he's seen how terrible the Apostles are more then anyone else there. ACtually, thinking about it as well, Schierke would probabally stick with Guts. She already knows that Griffith is Femto. After all, the witch lady knew that the prophecy everyone was dreaming of was a result of the God Hand, and Schierke was seen spying on one of the Midland villages when she was first introduced.
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Jul 14, 2007 03:04
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Besides, Schierke might be just a little angry about the Band of the Hawk burning her treehouse.
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Jul 14, 2007 20:13
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Zorak posted:Puck is pretty much the only one who I'd think would stick with Guts if he did that. Puck has gotten glimpses of the Eclipse from when Guts gets really emotional (since Elves are able to sense emotions), and he's seen how terrible the Apostles are more then anyone else there. And if Shierke stays, then Farneze will probably stay as well. And if Farneze stays, Serpico will stay (and likely the whole gang that's following her now).
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Jul 14, 2007 20:46
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This is my all time favorite manga (the only manga I've actually been willing to read). I first watched the anime version and liked it a lot. But it had absolutely no conclusion for the story! I gave the manga a try and it is extremely awesome. If you wanna read about an epic adventure with extreme violence then berserk is pretty great. I really like the lore in the manga as well. It's like the crusades but with real witches, monsters, and evil Hindu armies. I anxiously await each new chapter being translated.
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Jul 14, 2007 21:02
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Just posting to say that I decided to check out the 1st volume after alot of Berserk pages showed up in 'Post your favorite badass panel' threads. I was pretty amazed, I had always dismissed Berserk for some reason, possibly due to its fantasy setting. Volume 1 changed my mind, and I pretty much lost it when Guts had his first epicly drawn freak out in which someone or something ends up in 2 pieces. Now I'm up to volume 20 and continuing to enjoy it, even if the story can get a bit convoluted. My only disappointment in the fact that it has so many volumes is that it will make buying them all expensive. edit: SOmething that annoys me in Volume 28, when Serpico and the kid are talking about the Band of the Hawk defeating the Chuder army and what not, they mention the raid leader who killed a billion guys etc and was the cause of the victory, and they don't know his name. Then they ask Guts what merc. band he was in, and he just blows them off. loving tell them how badass you are! Don't leave them in the dark. Jerkface fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jul 15, 2007 |
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Jul 15, 2007 00:13
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http://bt.evil-genius.us:60000/files/torrents/%5BEvil_Genius%5DBerserk_v33c287.rar.torrent Evil Genius' scan is up. Really good chapter, now that I can read the words.
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Jul 15, 2007 07:43
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Well, currently reading the Gambino storyline, and now we know why Guts doesn't like to be touched. Though he does end up getting his revenge on Donovan and Gambino.
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Jul 15, 2007 08:20
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In regards to Casca: I took what the skull guy and company have said to mean that when Casca comes out of her idiot state she might go back to Griffith. Or not want to continue on with Guts quest for revenge. I'm hoping she sticks with Guts but who knows what hosed up direction it could be taken.
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Jul 15, 2007 09:05
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Scoobi posted:In regards to Casca: I took what the skull guy and company have said to mean that when Casca comes out of her idiot state she might go back to Griffith. Or not want to continue on with Guts quest for revenge. I'm hoping she sticks with Guts but who knows what hosed up direction it could be taken. I heartily disagree with your first bit of speculation. If she were ready to switch to the evil side, why did her mind break? Why did she regress to a childlike state? The events of the Eclipse were traumatic. She was held high and raped by the man she idolized in front of the man she loved. Her child was aborted and tainted with evil. Everything she held dear was annihilated, betrayed. Caska has good reasons to loathe and fear Guts. He abandoned her and abused her, even while protecting her. She also has painful, sick reasons to protect the new Griffith. He is in the body of her son, and she swore to protect his dream. But if she is going to ally with Griffith, it won't be a simple change of alliances. It will be a painful drama with no happiness in it; it will be--mark my words--a place to be rescued from: rescued by a man with the strength of will to lead her out of the demon-infested light.
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Jul 15, 2007 13:26
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Maybe Casca will just drop out of the story for a while, to "find herself" or something like that. I doubt she'll be able to sort out her feelings without a lot of time. I wonder, though, what effect that Casca's recovery will have on Farnese? She's not totally useless now, with her magical training, but being Casca's caretaker was what helped her become a more empathetic human being. Once Casca can take care of herself, will Farnese be able to stand on her own feet, or will she just feel worthless again?
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Jul 15, 2007 14:49
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Wow. I didn't notice it so much before, but in the latest chapter it's very easy to tell that Guts looks like poo poo. I guess it's to be expected given all that he's been through, but drat. 
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Jul 15, 2007 15:25
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GFBeach posted:Wow. I didn't notice it so much before, but in the latest chapter it's very easy to tell that Guts looks like poo poo. I guess it's to be expected given all that he's been through, but drat. Well, Miura is most likely going to use Elfhelm as a "reset button" for a lot of things, probably including Guts' injuries. Elfhelm is full of powerful mages, y'know... maybe he'll even get his eye or arm back?
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Jul 15, 2007 15:46
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Hatter106 posted:Well, Miura is most likely going to use Elfhelm as a "reset button" for a lot of things, probably including Guts' injuries. Elfhelm is full of powerful mages, y'know... maybe he'll even get his eye or arm back? I doubt that. The lost eye and arm are symbollic and deeply connected to the Eclipse. However, I do bet his currently skin wounds will heal. He just took so much damage to his skin what with the armor biting into it, Zodd landing on him, and being struck by lightning repeatedly. The elves are probabally having a hard time just keeping up right now.
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Jul 15, 2007 17:34
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Zorak posted:I doubt that. The lost eye and arm are symbollic and deeply connected to the Eclipse. However, I do bet his currently skin wounds will heal. He just took so much damage to his skin what with the armor biting into it, Zodd landing on him, and being struck by lightning repeatedly. The elves are probabally having a hard time just keeping up right now. That may be so, but he's starting to resent the hunk of iron on his left arm. It may have it's uses, but it's become a burden to him. Plus, Guts will probably be 10 times as badass when he has depth perception! 
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Jul 15, 2007 18:36
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