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temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Griffith is ambition personified. There is no redemption for a character that didn't have humanity to begin with.

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temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
People are making fate into a magical word. Guts has a fate just like anyone else. Guts accepts his fate. He is willing to risk his life to win and doesn't beg for mercy or ask for any help. That is what makes him different in the story. The other characters are all compromising or sacrificing something to change their fate. Guts doesn't.

I think fate in Berserk is simply one's lot in life. Griffith was born a commonner. Gaston was born a tailor. Judeau was a jack of all trades, master of none. Caska was farm girl. However, all of them of them gave up something to escape their fates. Otherwise, Griffith would have remained a subject or at best a mercenary captain, Judeau would have never achieved greatness, and Caska would have been raped and forced into a life of servitude. Guts is unique in that his life or fate never has changed. He was always victim or rather pawn to fortune and fights to survive. He, in a either a self affirming or defeating way, refuses another life. Guts simply fights through his life and greets failure, which in his case is death, head on.

For Guts, he is the sacrifice and the offering. He is willing to die and fail to achieve his dream. His dream happens to be the same thing that saves his life (swinging his sword). I see a lot of parallels between Guts and the blacksmith Godo. They were born for something and live to do it. Only in the sparks or conflict do they perceive something greater.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Guts has always been branded. The story arcs are just circles within circles. As child, Guts was believed to be cursed. Later, he was labeled as a threat to the Band of Hawk. Then, the failure of the Hawks was attributed to his absence (and not Griffith's overreaching). Finally, the God Hand gave him a literal brand and literal curse.

The Idea of Evil and the God Hand are just meta concepts in the story to replace human antagonists with overarching human archetypes (in the Jungian sense). Instead of slaying soldiers, Guts is slaying concepts. Guts is now a meta concept himself of something I haven't quite placed. Maybe Guts represents human survival, with the primordial 'beast' as the extreme expression of the berserker armor.

If you look at the people allied with Guts, it is out of survival. When the Band realized Griffith was beyond redemption after his torture, they turned to Guts to survive as a group. Guts's current party is more or less allied to survive the eviction from their previous associations. Caska is an exception but I think she is the only non repeated or wild card player out of the other characters.

The Idea of Evil and the God Hand is murky for me. I think they represent the truly base side of humanity but ultimately, it is based on conceit. That is why Griffith, the man with the greatest conceit of rejecting his station to become a king, is the prince among all. Void thinks he knows he knows everything, Slan seeks others to please her, Ubik tries to scrye the motivations of others and deceive. Conrad is still unclear to me but I think he judges the worth of life (which is nothing). Their immortality is the ultimate conceit towards mortals because all mortals must die. They have sought to escape death.

The God Hand is the antagonist to Guts because they try to change fate. Guts is the fate acceptor, thus he destroys those that manipulate destiny. This description of Guts is compatible with his being the representation of survival. He is fully willing to die as any mortal creature must accept. Guts simply wants to survive as long as he can. But he also seeks to kill those that do not think they should face the same fate as others. So, he seeks to kill the immortals and he's pretty successful at it. The Apostles, like the enemy soldiers (with Bazuso being the icon in conceit and Guts first noteworthy opponent), traded something something to become immortal. Guts denies them their conceit by cutting them down. edit: Guts says it at the end of the Black Swordsman (1st chapter) to the Baron. He says something to the effect that he is going to do to the Baron what he did to others. I don't think Guts was speaking from a purely judicial standpoint but a kind of justice in equality. The Baron was going to suffer and die just like everyone else.

There is so much repetition in the story that if you understand the youth of Guts, you can understand everything else. Guts survived his mother's dead womb and continues to survive everything else life tosses his way. That's his fate, to be hunted and somehow escape. He is exceptional because he doesn't try to avoid it and now he seeks to deny others their escape from fate. Gambino resented Guts for surviving, blamed his wife's death on Guts, and tried to kill him. Griffith is no different. Guts had to flee and survived a wolf attack. Guts has been killing wolves ever since, in a myriad of forms. Where Caska fits into this is unknown to me but it is pretty interesting and keeps me reading.

edit again: The only 'magic' of the story is there to make it interesting. You can only kill soldiers for so long. The magical fate and magical demons are no different any other fate or evil human. They are variations to elevate the story. But at the core, it is the same struggle and opponents.

temple fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jun 20, 2009

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet

Zorak posted:

Guts is fated to be dead.
But aren't we all?

I think Guts is being interpreted into some kind of Neo from the Matrix style 'bridge between two worlds' type of character or some super duper badass that kicks the devil in his teeth character and that isn't the intention at all.

I think Miura is trying to say something through the characters about human nature. There is a lot of misdirection and subtext in Berserk. Don't confuse plot devices like the behelits or brands as being important to this story. Its what Miura doesn't say that's more telling.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Long story short because I see people tiring of this discussion.

The brand or whatever magical property is irrelevant and just plot pieces. They represent the idea Miura is presenting and not transferring power to Guts. Why? Because Guts has always been like, before and after the sacrifice. The brand, armor, sword, fairies, and the such are just symbolic updates to keep Guts consistent with the rest of the story. On one hand, you have the affairs of men. On the other, you have states of mind. There are two forces of fate. There is a fate you are born into and fate that you chose. The magic of the story is symbols in which the characters are represented. Guts have been succeeding in both areas so maybe the idea of fate is irrelevant. Guts remains not because he is some magical hero or superior warrior. He remains because of his character.

When you shoot a demon in the mouth with cannon, it is hard for me to find some magical explanation for it succeeding. Which I find that very interesting because it was cannon fire that crippled Gambino and Guts's sword that finished him. Maybe Guts is just doing what he always does, slay evil whether in human or demon form.

temple fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 20, 2009

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The big one with the exposed brain is named Void, IIRC.
He's getting Zodd and Void confused. Skull Knight hates Void but battles Zodd outside of the gateways when the God Hand emerges.

The more I re-read the more I get it. After reading through most of the chapters a 3-4 years ago, its amazing how much more subtle and deep it is (again) with a little experience. The demons are just expressing their inner desires. The Idea of God and the God Hand aren't so much magical beings as they are just ways for Miura to express the inner nature of men. When you see the demons, you aren't looking at spiritual beings in a literal sense. It is an expression of the mentality of the person. So, for Guts, he is just a beast clawing his way through life. But Guts can't rely on that otherwise he would lose his conscience. You can't stay wrapped in your own perspective. The spiritual realm is just a mirror. It is the spirit of the people that is projected.

The good magic is oddly similar to the evil magic. But I think the good magic represents the good spirits of people. The harmony with nature (this considering the shito japanese perspective of the writer's culture) is expressing how some people are just nice. This counterbalances the demonic sides of people and the demons of the spiritual realm.

I think Guts is the fish that can disrupt the shadow in the water. He can't change the nature of men but he can change its form while it is being projected on the world. In a way, Guts isn't magic but he has traveled so close to death that he understands life at a level that most can't comprehend. Farnese's attraction to him is evident by this due to her fear of the darkness or the unknown. Guts is brave in the darkness of the spiritual world(or the soul or mind, whatever). He is so close to it that people can't tell whether he is human or other. Maybe you have to b a little man and a little monster to survive. Which also explains Farnese's love for Silke. She was a evil person but she wants to change and be a witch (a good person in this story) to deal with the dark spiritual (mental) side of things in a positive way. The darkness in the spiritual world persists, whether it be seen from demons or the witches, but if you notice, Silke never fears the darkness whereas most people are consumed by it. I have a greater appreciation for Farnese and Silke after re-reading it now.

Caska (Casca, I hate the translation inconsistencies), is just a female Guts. They are identical in so many ways. They both were raped, whether directly or indirectly, by someone they idolized. They both were betrayed. They both were instrumental in destroying their master. Gambino had a pet dog that Guts resented, Griffith had Guts which Caska resented. They both survive on. I think the story pits men and women as different in terms of self-actualization. The men seek to overcome some force to be realized whereas the women seek a connection to others. That's the difference in their dreams. In some ways, Caska is doing what Guts did. She has mentally left him where he physically left. I don't think she will be healed, I think she will come back as Guts did. But she will come back for the new party, like how Guts returned for the old Band of the Hawk.

temple fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jun 24, 2009

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
After thinking....

Think of people as puppets to fate, forced into action by whatever powers or circumstances. Much like cutting the strings on a puppets, Guts and Caska were used and left for dead. But instead of dying or falling to the ground like a stringless puppet, Guts continues to stand. Also, he is able to carry Caska because she too is free from fate. This makes them outside of fate because there is no other direction or use for them. They are free and should die. Death comes from them every night. But Guts somehow manages to live when he shouldn't.

If the God Hand answers hopes and dreams, then Griffith's dream is greater than any other's. He dreamed for a commoner to be a king, which is virtually impossible. Griffith's ambition places him as the prince among hopers and dreamers. It is a two sided affair. You have the living that dream of impossible creatures and hope for a savior (something perceived as impossible). Alternatively, the dead and restless desire to live again. Griffith is the patron saint for all that hope. Therefore, he's ascension and rebirth empowers the creation of all that exists in the impossible.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
I still don't buy into the whole causality stuff. Mainly because Muira, like any good writer, will never outright say the point he is trying the make. So I put far less faith in what the story says than what the story shows. The story follows Guts, not Griffith, and Guts the complete antithesis of fate. Guts has been challenged by everything including hell and his own soul. The message of Guts is you make your own destiny. If fate actually mattered to the story, the Guts would died too many times in the past. But the fact he that can kill immortal creatures goes to say that maybe supernatural concepts like fate aren't immutable.

Guts is like the dumb stubborn side of human nature. He's just too mean to lose. Griffith is the imaginative side. He believed he could win and thus he did. They are basically the different sides of the same coin. I don't view Griffith as a bad guy at all. He simply was presented with an fantasy inspired deal with the devil instead of having his fate (and the band of the Hawk's) slowly played out. If he anything he has already escapted fate, much like Guts. He should have died a cripple. But because this is a fantasy story and it would be totally boring to have him waited on by Caska (like the story explicitly showed), Muira allowed the character to live on. Because its more interesting to have a story with devils and resurrection than reality.

And anyways, Guts is the reason why Griffith used to the behelit. Guts rode ahead like he always does and engaged Griffith first, which lead to all the Hawks entering the v0rtex. If Griffith could have talked, he would have told Guts to not touch him. The 'go ahead first' passionate behavior was already explored via Caska admonishing Guts about it a long time ago. Guts and Griffith's nature or ambition lead the situation.

But knowing Japanese writers, this is just what they call karma and Griffith will probably still die just like he did before. Not because he's a bad guy but because his actions lead to a path of self-destruction. And therefore, Guts would probably survive. The only reason question is what of Caska and their son.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
The child was corrupted in Caska's womb. This poo poo starts to very loving deep because Guts became like Gambino and Caska became like Shizu. But the beach episode showed that Guts, like always, learns from his experience and accepted the child.

The child was a demon but it was reborn, just like Griffith, when the egg demon resurrected Griffith. I don't quite understand the events of the rebirth though. I can't really understand if the child and new Griffith are actually physically tied or just coincidentally resurrected together. Either way would make sense.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
The point I've been making isn't that Godhand is irrelevent to the story. What I'm saying is what makes them reliable? I think the Godhand is an unreliable source. The demons, time and time again, have went on about how they are immortal and greater than man (much like the nobles to peasants). And continuously, Guts has chopped them down.

At some point, you have to ask 'does it really matter'? If nobility is nothing more than concoction of human pride, what makes the Godhand and causality any more than a creation of human imagination? Of course the story is symbolic. But trying to comprehend the story from a bias that the characters are speaking truthfully or even accurately has to fly in the face of the events presented. That's why I don't really put a lot of weight in the mystical causality and fate discussions. You have to believe they are real (at least plot wise) to consider them. Guts is living proof that none of it matters. Not just symbolically but literally; he cuts down the demons.

Besides, the Idea of Evil explains more about why Griffith was chosen and how the Godhand works than the message Muira is trying present.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Caska said that if she didn't have the Hawks, she would disappear. So Caska has died in a sense. She never knew how to be a regular lady so without the brotherhood of Hawks and a place with Griffith, she has no identity. In my mind, she reverted back to a girl state. She has to rediscover herself. But will that include Guts? And seeing how Guts has treated her, can you blame her actions?

I think Guts realizes that he and she will never be the same. He's the hard rear end realist so he should know better than any other. I think Guts trying to stay not for his gain but her sake. He is sorta paying his penitence for abandoning her in the past. He realizes he rather suffer with her than suffer without. It is very similar to how Caska wanted to stay with Griffith. He is acting the way he probably wished he would have and finally understanding why the Hawks were the way there were. The illusions are gone.

I think Guts has done some bad things, particularly abandoning the Hawks, but the reader is sympathetic towards him. The reader knows him better than any other character. But he really isn't as tragedic as he comes off. He is just learning lessons and life doesn't have to be fair in that regard. If anything, and this why I like Berserk so much, is that Guts is learning emotional strength to couple his physical strength. His battles at this point are very internal and can't be won with a sword. That's some real storytelling.

temple fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Mar 1, 2010

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet

Algid posted:

You mean at the field of swords? I'm pretty sure that that was because she could tell that it was her kid.
No, I mean when Griffith was crippled. Caska decided not to leave with Guts and stay with Griffith and said that Guts couldn't understand. Caska then is Guts now, except Caska is the one who is crippled.

Which, when they first met, Guts was crippled by Griffith. Which lead to Caska laying with him. This whole story is one big loving circle.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Guts doesn't really get power upgrades. He becomes flat out stronger in big chunks. Boy->teenager->young man->now. He becomes a whole new beast every now and then. The closet thing to upgrades is he get new techniques usually learned from his foes or friends. He has learned to fly from watching Serpico. He has learned a lot about magic from Silke. I think he will integrate more of the magical side in his fighting. I'd like to see him get a new hand/arm somehow. Maybe his demon dog avatar could become real.

temple fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jul 13, 2010

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
My crazy rear end never gonna happen prediction is that Griffith is using Guts (as always) to kill the Apostles. That's my hunch because Griffith still is in love Guts. I've re-read the series enough and tried to interpret it otherwise. But Griffith is in love with Guts, I think Guts is his friend and brother and etc...but Griffith never knew desire (in the flesh) until he knew Guts. In the very least he has a man crush on him.

edit: Compare Guts to the lord that slept with Griffith. Griffith cut him down for being a loose end. Guts is a pretty big loose end if you ask me. But Griffith plays this school girl game of 'oh hai i was chillin in the graveyard, the one from when I killed all those dudes, didn't know you would be here....right outside of your house...and I don't like you anymore.' Please, Griffith is definitely in love with Guts and wants him to survive. He literally brought his new boyfriend (Zodd) to beat up his old boyfriend (Guts).

I also think that Griffith is resenting the Godhand because just like a king, there are limits that even he has to follow as the Prince of Darkness. I think he feels like he was sold a raw deal and that being king of the world isn't as great as it seemed in his dream.

Guts and Casca child is just like Guts, just a demon version of him. He protects his mother, wants to reach out to his father, and even at a young age can repel demons. He lacks a sword or anything traditional like that (like how kids are different than their parents). Guts grew up on a battlefield and became a warrior, his son was literally born in the midst of the spirit realm and can sway demons. I want to say that Griffith polluted him and maybe the kid is evil. But they said the same thing about Guts and called him bad luck. I think Guts is learning based on his treatment of the kid from the beginning (wanting to kill him) to understanding by letting Casca keep him. Maybe Guts won't face the same fate as Gambino. Casca is identical to Shizu, from having a miscarrage and being insane. Maybe she won't face the same fate as well.

Gut's party is love triangles within love triangles. Its really interesting seeing the Guts/Griffith/Casca drama being multiplied by all the new characters in Gut's party.

temple fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jul 14, 2010

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
This


Click here for the full 791x225 image.


Plus this



Makes this



I never noticed how the child has one eye. Also these images match up from different panels. I thought it was cool.


temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet

GoldenNugget posted:

What page does the grin come from?
Its from the fight with the fairy demon. The scene when Guts throws himself into a fire to kill the hornet demons swarming him.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Beserk is an epic story. I like it because Guts is the absolute least pretentious hero I've ever read about it. So, epic stories aren't just slaying bad guys and saving the girl. You have to build the scale of the battle. Each side track with demons shows how Guts is a demon slayer. The story doesn't just tell you 'heres the cool guy'. It doesn't just give him the super sword of 9000 demon killing because he was born to be the king. The Beserk plot builds the characters into what they are.

Read something like Fist of the North Star, which is no less classic or epic, and you will see a lot of 'this guy is strong....oh no he killed the strong guy!' What a surprise! Stories NEED exposition to make the conflict believable important. I appreciate it and frankly, I've enjoyed the series enough that it doesn't have to hurry up. Each section is self contained well so I've receive the feeling of completion several times over. There is just more and more to read.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
If a world of transforming demons makes sense, then the berserker armor makes sense. Otherwise, Guts has to wear plot armor order get his ribs broken every fight and yet survive. The berserker armor is the cohesive counterpart to all the other magic in the story. In order to fight demons, Guts must possess a little demon in him. The berserker armor is just a reflection of that transformation and keeps Guts from being a complete mary sue.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet

Lord_Pigeonbane posted:

What's mary sue?
Mary sue is an example of a character that is idealized version of the author or the fans. They are flawless or have clichéd flaws, supremely capable, and selflessly die to protect their friends. It is a faux pas in fiction because it so self serving and doesn't produce interesting characters. Goku may not be a literal Mary Sue but fits the bill perfectly. Guts could be seen as a Mary Sue if he didn't have to seek more help and power. Otherwise, he is a sneering man child.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Funny someone mentioned the Black Company because I love that series for its darkness and low/high hybrid magic setting. Maybe reading the Black Company is why I like Berserk so much.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet

ArchDemon posted:

"Daddy's getting angry again."

Exactly how I felt. The beast conflict is getting stale. Something needs to be resolved.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
I like Spriggan but not as much as when I was younger. Its like Metal Gear Solid the movie, without the sneaking around. Comparing it to Akira is interesting but its more campy like MGS than profound.

temple fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jan 26, 2011

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Speculation is pretty unsatisfying for all. I'd rather deconstruct the actual fight between Guts and Griffith. I don't see why it is such a big leap of logic that can Guts can cut demons apart with his sword but he wouldn't be able to do the same to Griffith. The real concept is that Griffith's power comes from his assuming the fantasies of people. Griffith is the idea of a savior. He is the white knight personified. Guts is the rejection of fantasy, thus the black knight.

The story is the fight of ideas of many versus the ideas of a few. Griffith's influence is his power and it is a reinforcing loop of support. Guts is supported only by his party. However, both of the factions are able to influence the world. So the question isn't if Guts can kill Griffith, the question is can the ideas of a few trump the ideas of many.

I think Guts will be asked to make a sacrifice because he has been prompted with a choice consistently in the story. He will have to choose between Caska or his party. I can't speculate any further.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Man, hagfish. I just google image searched weird fish and weird eel to figure out its name. Nightmare fuel.

Guts watch out! Eels have a second pairs of jaws!

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Guts abandoned the Hawks. He had reasons but we see the story from his point of view, not Caska or Griffith or the Hawks when they were fighting for their lives over that year. All because Guts had to do his own thing.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Caska's current state is more about having whole life ripped from her, right down to her womb producing a demon child. Guts had plenty of batshit insane moments, its okay if Caska is hosed up too. She said she would disappear if something ever happened to the Hawks. She has. If you see her state as being hosed crazy, maybe that says something about you.

I'm tired of the tough girl idea of feminism. Its okay to have female characters that are weak. I think Farnese is probably a stronger character because she was so weak.

temple fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jul 9, 2011

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
I can't think of any twists in Beserk. Stuff like foreshadowing and twists get thrown around so much that people don't really recognize it for what it is.

The anime market is saturated so I don't see a new Berserk anime really shaking things up too much. Beserk's original anime series came out right at the point when anime was emerging in North America. Before then, anime as a whole was back shelf, hard to find stuff that people called Japanamation. The release of the anime series did stir some interest because it stood head and shoulders above what was available in themes, storytelling, and setting. But at this point, I can't see standing out. Gantz is a pretty big deal in Japan (AFAIK) and its barely a blip on most people's radar because its adult themed (edit: and it came out post the anime explosion so it suffers from the same oversaturation problem I think the new Beserk anime will suffer). Berserk has too much competition outside of established anime/manga fans that are already exposed to everything else.

There isn't a better place to start in the story than the Golden era. Everything else is rising or falling action. As much as later arcs have entertained me, its all about healing Caska or killing Griffith due to what was already set up.

temple fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Jul 11, 2011

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
People are just obsessive about anything that can be seen as a spoiler because they want MAXIMUM ENTERTAINMENT from a story. A story's premise should be compelling enough that you don't need spoilers to generate interest. But a story should be compelling enough in itself that spoilers don't ruin the experience. Everyone knows how Romeo and Juilet ends but its still well worth reading. You can't live and die by individual plot points and Berserk is bigger than Griffith becomes Femto. Hell, if you are reading this, the story is still going to be awesome regardless if you knew that Griffith becomes Femto.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
T....T....T....tits

Ahhh Berserk, never change.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
I've never understood the ghost boy/Femto thing either. I think he's the physical tie that allows Femto to exist in the real world, like blood sacrifice in a hellraiser kind of way. But it doesn't make sense from any perspective.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
The kid appears outside of a full moon. He is only corporal in the full moon, because the full moon makes super magic. I don't like the magic stuff in Beserk because it reminds of all other fantasy manga/anime and it pisses me off. I get why the moon matters to the beserk world but its overused and just annoying to hear about in this manga.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
The Golden Arc was good because it was relatable. At this point, the story is metaphysical. That's good for what I think Muira is trying to convey but it creates ridiculous DBZ styled conflicts were no one dies unless the plot dictates it. The minute Guts got that damned beserker armor, the wheels came off in terms of logic.

That's why I say you have to ignore the fantasy stuff and look at the story can abstractions at this point. Guts is human will. What he is experiencing isn't a matter of if he will win because he's no longer human. Guts is an idea and you can't kill ideas with swords. The same with Griffith. You have think about it as what can kill the idea of ambition? What can kill endurance? But I still prefer people doing people stuff because its cooler than philosophical conflict.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
I always liked the anime version of the story better because it made the ending more believable. Nothing short outside an act of god was going to save the hawks and low and behold, something mystical happened. The manga had a gradual build up and it was cool but not quite as impressive once you saw Guts fight Wyald .

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Griffith had regret over that kid dying on the battlefield. Griffith sold his body to expedite the hawk's fundraising after the kid died. Griffith isn't a heartless monster and I think he and Guts are pretty on comparable in selfish/selflessness. Griffith was completely broken and targeted by the God Hand to sacrifice. I reread or watch that scene where he is convinced to join the God Hand a lot when I go through the manga/anime every couple of a years. He really doesn't want to be a bloody ruler but his ambition and hopelessly was amplified to the point that he felt he had no other option.

Guts and Puck have that behelit and I wonder who it is for and if for Guts, what would make him use it? What would he be asked to sacrifice?

temple fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Dec 14, 2011

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Fate doesn't control anything. It seems clear to me reading this story that Miura is trying to state that over and over but people miss that.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
I agree.
I don't see how you look at Gut's life and say Fate guided it. In every situation where he should lose, he defies expectations. Not because he's the hero but because Guts IS pure defiance.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
Well that's self contradictory. Either Miura doesn't know what fate means or he is discrediting it.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
I think people are tripping over the allegorical nature of the story with Miura's intentions. Sure Guts is a non-person which implies his freedom from fate. But fate is just as much as a villain as anything else in the story. Fate is what screwed everyone over until they met Griffin and Griffin was a screwed out his destiny as well until he met the God Hand. But just as Guts can kill "immortal" demons, pre and post Eclipse, I think Guts is going to destroy fate. So, fate is established as something that Miura is challenging, not confirming.

So when people go fate this and fate that, you are buying into what the God Hand said. But just look at Guts and you will see its all bullshit.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet

Darko posted:

I think the idea is that things happen as they "should," but constantly have to work AROUND Guts (who hates how things "should" be), who can jump in and out of it (like a fish jumping out of water), with there being the very real possibility that somewhere along the way, he can change the entire course of the river as he becomes a bigger and bigger "fish" in the story.
I think that line throws a lot of people off because it sounds deep. I think all Skull Knight meant is that life (the river) gets fantasies projected upon it (the picture of the moon). Every now and then, something real (the fish) splashes the river and reminds you that the river isn't the picture at all but just a river. Guts is the fish that breaks everyone's fantasy and turns demons back into humans and makes people face the cold harsh reality of things.

edit: And using the word causality makes people put on their philosopher hats and say "Ahh ~Causality!~" But I think Skull Knight and Miura is using causality in the sense of a flow of events that are out of our control. Caska didn't ask to be born female, Griffith didn't want the kid to die in his battle, Guts didn't mean to kill Gambino; but poo poo happens that we can't control. So life is a stream of events that we see deeper meaning in but sometimes a person comes along that lets us, for a little, see it for what it is.

temple fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Dec 21, 2011

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temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
But what if Guts was possessed and the burger was the only love of his life?

temple fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 17, 2012

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