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Argue
Sep 29, 2005

I represent the Philippines

I was hoping for some advice on classes. I don't plan on being a professional artist (I'm happy as a software eng), so going to a real, physical school is out of the question, but I have been taking it more seriously the last couple of years. I've been going for the cheap (but good) classes I can get online (Proko, New Masters Academy, etc), and I think I've learned quite a bit, but I feel I've been pacing myself too slowly and could be learning more. I've seen some much more expensive online curricula, and I was wondering if those might be worth it. In particular, I've been directed to CGMA, as well as to the Watts Atelier stuff. Anyone know if these are worth the much heftier prices they charge?

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Nessa
Dec 15, 2008



Well, I had my second interview. They didn't seem to like the quick concepts I came up with for the very cheesy slogans they gave me, as much as they liked the work that I put 20 or so hours of time into with slogans I came up with myself. They want to do a trial run to make sure we'll work well together.

I signed a contract to take on work on a project by project basis and invoice them at the end of each month. I'll be working for much less than my current freelance rate, but it's still almost double what I'm making working retail right now. It's about what I'd expect to make as a graphic design employee, rather than a freelancer. The contract also clarified that this rate will be revised after 3 months.

I have never done anything like this before, so I don't know if I made a horrible mistake or not. I guess we'll see. It looks like it's going to be cheesy slogans all the way down.

I also have to learn how to use Mail Chimp and other email campaign related stuff. I'm pretty well versed in HTML and CSS, so should I be able to pick it up pretty quickly?

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Also sexism, religious bias, jingoism, and so on. Don't do it, people!

Dogs, don't do it either, even if the police man really tries to train you to do it.


My wife applied for a position doing graphic design / formatting a website. Sheís got no college experience but has been doing this stuff as a hobby (including logo design) for a while. I know if she gets a call sheíll get the dreaded ďwhat pay range are you looking forĒ question. I know from my own experience that you donít give a range, just a number. And I know where to look for salaries. But what term should I be looking for in this case? They said it would be a good job for a college student, so very junior.

Itís not full web dev, they have a functioning site. She would be editing the layout and adding graphics.

This would be absolutely huge for her, she hasnít had a job since Jan 2016, and has never done art on anything but a commission or piecework basis.

22 Eargesplitten fucked around with this message at Nov 3, 2017 around 15:33

Ferrule
Feb 23, 2007

Yo!

Check out the site glassdoor.com

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Also sexism, religious bias, jingoism, and so on. Don't do it, people!

Dogs, don't do it either, even if the police man really tries to train you to do it.


Oh yeah, Iíve done tons of research for myself in the past (STEM need ) Iím just not sure what the job title would be and the Craigslist ad doesnít have a title, just a description.

Ferrule
Feb 23, 2007

Yo!

Well, it sounds like "junior designer" or "junior web specialist". Or just graphic designer/web designer.

But stay away from "Senior" and all the directors (art, creative, etc).

Vilgefartz
Apr 29, 2013



Fun Shoe

Argue posted:

I was hoping for some advice on classes. I don't plan on being a professional artist (I'm happy as a software eng), so going to a real, physical school is out of the question, but I have been taking it more seriously the last couple of years. I've been going for the cheap (but good) classes I can get online (Proko, New Masters Academy, etc), and I think I've learned quite a bit, but I feel I've been pacing myself too slowly and could be learning more. I've seen some much more expensive online curricula, and I was wondering if those might be worth it. In particular, I've been directed to CGMA, as well as to the Watts Atelier stuff. Anyone know if these are worth the much heftier prices they charge?

Hey man i took Analytical Anatomy at CGMA with Ron Lemen. the course was about 650 bux. It was totally worth it, his video lectures give great direction and an understandable way to learn anatomy for drawing. Mind you the workload can be pretty big, i found myself struggling some weeks to finish if i had to work aswell.

kedo
Nov 27, 2007



Nessa posted:

Well, I had my second interview. They didn't seem to like the quick concepts I came up with for the very cheesy slogans they gave me, as much as they liked the work that I put 20 or so hours of time into with slogans I came up with myself. They want to do a trial run to make sure we'll work well together.

I signed a contract to take on work on a project by project basis and invoice them at the end of each month. I'll be working for much less than my current freelance rate, but it's still almost double what I'm making working retail right now. It's about what I'd expect to make as a graphic design employee, rather than a freelancer. The contract also clarified that this rate will be revised after 3 months.

I have never done anything like this before, so I don't know if I made a horrible mistake or not. I guess we'll see. It looks like it's going to be cheesy slogans all the way down.

I also have to learn how to use Mail Chimp and other email campaign related stuff. I'm pretty well versed in HTML and CSS, so should I be able to pick it up pretty quickly?

That's great, progress, congratulations! I hope it works out for you, reading your posts in this thread I know it's been a long haul in getting steadier work in design. Based on what you mentioned about how they're paying you this will surely not be a forever client (if you start out getting paid way too little it may be impossible to ever raise your prices to your desired rate with them), but it will be a good opportunity to get some real work in your portfolio.

And now less cheery news Ė†HTML emails are the absolute worst because email clients don't render HTML and CSS consistently, even the really basic stuff like background images. You'll be amazed at the number of people still using Outlook 2007. My recommendation is to use MailChimp's pre-made templates as much as possible as they've already done a lot of the testing for you, and only modify them the absolute minimum amount. The actual editing workflow isn't difficult if you already know HTML and CSS, they're just a hassle to test.

Despite that, congratulations, really!

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


So I'm having a pretty big dilemma right now and I'm looking for all sorts of advice. Might as well try here.

Years ago I tried going to college to get a degree in Marine Biology which didn't work out at all. Despite really wanting to work in that field I don't feel I'm cut out for it. With no clear direction, I dropped out of college and decided to instead try building up some work experience just taking any job I could get at home. That's all well and good, but I do want to do something with my life that I actually enjoy. So I'm turning to the one other thing I really have a passion for; art.

I always wanted to be an artist but around High School I dismissed it as an unrealistic fantasy and stopped pursuing it. I thought that even if you put in the time and got a good education in an Art field, it was no guarantee of any sort of job. A risky career field that is unlikely to go well. I have no idea how much truth there really is to that; its based pretty much on second-hand accounts of the starving artist. I definitely feel like I have the motivation to learn and succeed in college art courses, but what's the point in doing them if it won't actually lead to a job?

I guess I'm trying to quantify the value of an art degree in the modern job market. Right now I'm looking at taking community college courses while working part-time. The college I'm planning on attending has a lot of art programs but I need to know if pursuing them would even go anywhere. Obviously I'm gonna try and learn more from the college itself but I figure it couldn't hurt to see if anyone here has relevant input.

Anony Mouse
Jan 30, 2005

A name means nothing on the battlefield. After a week, no one has a name.

Lipstick Apathy

What does "art" mean to you? What would your ideal creative outlet look like if money were no object? Honestly, making a career out of art for art's sake is nigh impossible. The typical answer to your question is probably "go into design" - visual or graphic design if you're 2D oriented, maybe product or industrial or exhibition design if you're more of a "maker". Applying creative skills to solve real world problems can certainly make you a living. But traditional art skills like painting or sculpting are just not widely marketable. Even more "useful" fields like drawing and illustration are brutally competitive.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

You walk in with the Turnips, you leave with the Bells.


UI/UX and motion design is in high demand right now, but who knows what will be in high demand 4+ years from now when you're finished with education and good enough to get paid work. It's all possible, but it takes a lot of time and is a slow burn and you have to either be willing to switch to what is paying or be ok with needing to become one of the best.

gmc9987
Jul 25, 2007


Internet Kraken posted:

So I'm having a pretty big dilemma right now and I'm looking for all sorts of advice. Might as well try here.

Years ago I tried going to college to get a degree in Marine Biology which didn't work out at all. Despite really wanting to work in that field I don't feel I'm cut out for it. With no clear direction, I dropped out of college and decided to instead try building up some work experience just taking any job I could get at home. That's all well and good, but I do want to do something with my life that I actually enjoy. So I'm turning to the one other thing I really have a passion for; art.

I always wanted to be an artist but around High School I dismissed it as an unrealistic fantasy and stopped pursuing it. I thought that even if you put in the time and got a good education in an Art field, it was no guarantee of any sort of job. A risky career field that is unlikely to go well. I have no idea how much truth there really is to that; its based pretty much on second-hand accounts of the starving artist. I definitely feel like I have the motivation to learn and succeed in college art courses, but what's the point in doing them if it won't actually lead to a job?

I guess I'm trying to quantify the value of an art degree in the modern job market. Right now I'm looking at taking community college courses while working part-time. The college I'm planning on attending has a lot of art programs but I need to know if pursuing them would even go anywhere. Obviously I'm gonna try and learn more from the college itself but I figure it couldn't hurt to see if anyone here has relevant input.

Saying, "I want to get a job in art," is too general for any real practical advice. It's like saying you want to get a job driving vehicles - do you want to be a long-haul trucker? A delivery person for UPS or Fedex? A tank navigator in the army? A NASCAR driver? The types of jobs available may all build on the same base skills but they all specialize heavily, requiring you to pick a discipline and stick with it for a while (both in school and after) until you've achieved a skill level high enough to make a living on it.

As such, here is the best advice I can give you based on your general desire to make a living from art:
  • the number of fine artists (painters, sculptors, and other "traditional" mediums) who are able to make a living solely based off making whatever they want and then selling it is super tiny. Like, miniscule. Fractions of a percent. If this is what being an artist means to you, you will most likely be making all your living off of a day job for the rest of your life.
  • If you're looking to go into graphic design or illustration: Unless the company deals primarily in products that require extensive design work, most positions in this field are short-term and contract based. You'll need to be continually looking for more clients and work, and there will be months when you won't get any work at all.
  • Animation and video game art is not quite so short-term, but still not long-term (note: this refers mainly to AAA titles). Most animators and artists I know in this field get hired on for development of a game or season, and once that is completed they have to find more work. Hours are long and grueling as well - think 60+ hour weeks with strict deadlines, working over weekends, etc.
  • Regardless of your chosen field, the projects that will make you the most money and the most reliable living are going to be boring, not-fun-at-all, and frustrating. I've had the opportunity to work on some really amazing, fun projects in my career - games that are proven to increase science literacy in middle school children, available free of charge to teachers; ancient-egypt-themed-card games, and more. About 90% of my money comes from creating Disney Princess-branded sticker sets and coloring books using an abundance of pink and purple and ready-made stock art. It's not fun, but it pays the bills. Don't get any ideas in your head that making a living in art is anything other than work like any other job.

If there's a specific field you want to enter we can give you some better advice but above is what I would tell anyone looking to enter a career in art.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


Well part of this process was going to be figuring out what exactly I wanted to do in art. I have no illusions about ever being able to be one of those people that can draw whatever they want and have people fork over thousands of dollars for it. I also didn't expect any job to be enjoyable most of the time. Its just that getting an art education and relevant experience would also help me improve my art as a hobby. So even if I didn't enjoy the actual work I would at least be building up skills that help me create drawings I do like, so there would be satisfaction.

Your point about most of the work being contract based is really important though. It makes sense and its something I foolishly hadn't considered. I don't think that would fit into the kind of life I have and my current needs. Its probably better to just keep this as a hobby and pursue a more stable career, even if I have no idea what that would be at the moment.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Nessa
Dec 15, 2008



kedo posted:

That's great, progress, congratulations! I hope it works out for you, reading your posts in this thread I know it's been a long haul in getting steadier work in design. Based on what you mentioned about how they're paying you this will surely not be a forever client (if you start out getting paid way too little it may be impossible to ever raise your prices to your desired rate with them), but it will be a good opportunity to get some real work in your portfolio.

And now less cheery news Ė†HTML emails are the absolute worst because email clients don't render HTML and CSS consistently, even the really basic stuff like background images. You'll be amazed at the number of people still using Outlook 2007. My recommendation is to use MailChimp's pre-made templates as much as possible as they've already done a lot of the testing for you, and only modify them the absolute minimum amount. The actual editing workflow isn't difficult if you already know HTML and CSS, they're just a hassle to test.

Despite that, congratulations, really!

Haha, it's been nearly two months and I haven't gotten any work from these people, whatsoever. Early this month, this was a "team meeting" with the other people that were hired, so I got to meet the other graphic designers and writing team. I thought the ball was going to get rolling, but there's still nothing.

Meanwhile, I've been working part time as a "graphic designer" at a small publisher where I've been spending most of my time shrink wrapping calendars, and have barely worked the last week since they didn't have anything for me to do.

yehdawg
Oct 2, 2013

Danger Extraordinaire


Any goons in video production? I'm trying to get into it as a freelance videographer. Any advice that you wish you knew when you first started out about how to charge, how to find gigs, and equipment?

Killer_B
May 22, 2005


What are the better cities/areas in the country for getting creative positions, even production artist-related positions, outside of Chicago/NY/California?

I've handled positions involving page layout, preflighting, retouching, web & graphic design...Though I'd definitely be more towards the "production" side of tasks, than "creative".

Ferrule
Feb 23, 2007

Yo!

Killer_B posted:

What are the better cities/areas in the country for getting creative positions, even production artist-related positions, outside of Chicago/NY/California?

I've handled positions involving page layout, preflighting, retouching, web & graphic design...Though I'd definitely be more towards the "production" side of tasks, than "creative".

Minneapolis, Atlanta, Cincinnati.

There's big CPG places in those cities so there's a bunch of design firms as well. I'm only speaking from a packaging perspective.

Lower cost of living, too.

Narzack
Sep 15, 2008


Sorry for the crosspost from the supid questions thread, I just realized I should have posted this here.

I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but I'm not sure where else to go. I'm currently a television cameraman in Orlando- live sports mostly, and my wife and I are dead sick of this place. We really want to get out of here, but I'm not sure where the good markets are. I did LA for a bit and didn't really care for it. Plus we have a 1 year old and two dogs, so that life isn't for us. I know there's Atlanta, but it's still basically the climate and terrain of Florida. It's still a possibility, though. There's New York, but I don't really know much about the area. I was also thinking about North Carolina, since there is a ton of teams up there, but, again, I don't really know any of the other TV sports markets. 

I mean, my end goal is to get into films, but I still need regular TV work to make ends meet. 

Any thoughts?

Vile Pilot
Jan 19, 2018

by FactsAreUseless


Should I take the safer route and try to get a CG related job, or try to make a living off Youtube?

Vile Pilot fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2018 around 22:02

gmc9987
Jul 25, 2007


I dunno, do you already have an audience or following on YouTube? What are your savings like? How long can you survive before you have to turn a profit or starve? Do you know what would make people excite about your videos, or what your "hook" is?

If you want any sort of detailed answer you need to provide a little more info my friend, but my opinion is - whether I would say yes or no depends on how well prepared you are and how much research you've done into both careers, and how prepared you are (in terms of youtube) to take a year or more where you don't generate that much money an build up your audience (this is assuming that you're starting from scratch, and don't already have a popular channel that makes you money).

Vile Pilot
Jan 19, 2018

by FactsAreUseless


gmc9987 posted:

I dunno, do you already have an audience or following on YouTube?

I only have about 350 subscribers, but one of my videos got 230,000 views. The only thing is it took me a year to make.

gmc9987 posted:

What are your savings like? How long can you survive before you have to turn a profit or starve?

I've been living with my parents for the past 10 years and can do so indefinitely. The problem is that it has gotten, and will probably continue to get, a little boring and redundant.

gmc9987 posted:

Do you know what would make people excite about your videos, or what your "hook" is?

My plan would be to do an ongoing GBS thread asking for ideas. I can come up with alright ideas on my own, but not with daily or near daily consistency.

gmc9987 posted:

and how prepared you are (in terms of youtube) to take a year or more where you don't generate that much money an build up your audience (this is assuming that you're starting from scratch, and don't already have a popular channel that makes you money).

I honestly expect it to take more like 10-20 years before I'm good enough to make a living off Youtube, if ever.



*edit*after putting more thought into it, I think it's just better if I focus on trying to get a job. Making a living off Youtube would be so incredibly difficult.

Vile Pilot fucked around with this message at Dec 23, 2018 around 13:01

Putty
Mar 21, 2013


Youtube, the website that has never made a profit, is probably not a good employer.

One video with a viral amount of views doesn't mean anything.

avshalemon
Jun 28, 2018



vile pilot is a man on a mission and one day he'll find success

Fruity20
Jul 28, 2018

Do you believe in magic, Tenno?


edit: wrong place

Fruity20 fucked around with this message at Mar 4, 2019 around 19:13

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


Does anyone have tips on finding freelance work as a 3d environment artist outside of the Polycount jobs board?

InternetJunky
May 25, 2002



This is kind of a shot in the dark but it seems like an appropriate thread to ask in...

Do any of you have experience working in, running, and/or owning an art gallery? I'm mulling over the possibility of opening my own to sell my photography but it is incredibly difficult to find much information about this topic. Even basic stuff such as:
-- what kind of pay should a gallery manager expect
-- what kind of pay should a regular sales person expect
-- is commission on sales standard for employees
-- what kind of commission would be reasonable

Basically I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has any info on running and/or working in a gallery. Also, is there a better place in the forums for this type of info?

justcola
May 22, 2004

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

InternetJunky posted:

This is kind of a shot in the dark but it seems like an appropriate thread to ask in...

Do any of you have experience working in, running, and/or owning an art gallery? I'm mulling over the possibility of opening my own to sell my photography but it is incredibly difficult to find much information about this topic. Even basic stuff such as:
-- what kind of pay should a gallery manager expect
-- what kind of pay should a regular sales person expect
-- is commission on sales standard for employees
-- what kind of commission would be reasonable

Basically I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has any info on running and/or working in a gallery. Also, is there a better place in the forums for this type of info?

I've had exhibitions and know a few people with galleries - not sure where you live but this is UK based;

What sort of gallery are you wanting to run? Like a place that sells commercial art with a quick turnaround or more of a 'white cube' type contemporary gallery? If the former - commission on sales is standard for the people I know, the gallery takes between 30-50% - I think 5% is a decent commission and the rest would go towards running costs. If you want to be selling work regularly you have to think of the gallery space as potential areas to sell work, so if a work isn't selling, you're losing money. Therefore it's good to have an idea of what does sell, particularly to your audience (middle-class liberal arts people?) and then find artists you think would sell.

A good sideline could be antiques, generally going round in a van to auctions and house clearances, snapping up ornaments and art but also nice bits of furniture. Another good revenue stream is offering framing of existing pieces of work, though that depends on your skillset I guess. You could also offer some space for art and craft classes, such as photography, life drawing, macrame etc. But just selling art alone can be a bit high risk, particularly if you aren't in a major city.

I'd visit other galleries, particularly show openings, and maybe look at putting an exhibition together before opening your own gallery. Collaborate with others, as this makes it easier but also your network expands for each additional person you work with. You can also approach other local businesses and see if they'd be interested in having your work up (particularly if its local landscapes/people/culture) - it can still be for sale and they'd get a cut (5) but otherwise it's like free advertising.

I'd cost up a rough budget (rent, salaries, insurance, framing, overheads, tax), visit and talk to as many gallery owners as possible then look towards either a small business loan (may be high risk) or any art grant programmes in your area. If there's no grant money about, contact local universities and say you're interested in setting up a gallery and if their students/professors would be interested and if so, would it be something to collaborate on (same with local councils) - look at NGO's that may have nationwide strategies around arts and culture for other funding, or see what you can get for little to no costs (particularly in terms of space)

Good luck!

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


Stress, Suicide, and the Savannah College of Art and Design
How an art school in coastal Georgia is killing its students ó and why no one is talking about it.


I dropped out of MICA for very similar reasons to what was outlined in this article. Even if MICA isn't as bad, these issues are common in art schools and are part of the reason I'm hesitant to tell prospective students they should go to art school when they ask me about it.

Kanine fucked around with this message at Aug 11, 2019 around 04:26

kedo
Nov 27, 2007



For what itís worth, in design circles in my city SCAD has a pretty terrible reputation for being one step above degree factories. Iíve never seen a good portfolio come out of it and Iíve had dozens of graduates apply for jobs at places Iíve worked. Most of that blame is on the school, not the students.

Iíve read articles similar to this about art school before and Iím always torn on how to feel. On one hand, harsh critique and seemingly impossible deadlines are absolutely core parts of most creative industries. The former is actually incredibly valuable, but it takes years of experience to develop the necessary degree of emotional detachment from your work in order to receive it in a positive way. One needs to be able to pour dozens or hundreds of hours of intense concentration, skill, personal taste and experience into a project only to have a creative director say, ďno, that direction is too [insert painful critique here],Ē and the whole thing goes in the trash can or gets reworked to the point itís unrecognizable so that it will please a client. If sucks, but if your goal is to sell commercial art and youíre not a fine artist, ultimately learning how to receive feedback from a team and adjust your style to suit a clients needs are vital skills. Deadlines are another issue altogether - sometimes theyíre necessary and helpful, but often theyíre arbitrary and damaging to a project. But theyíre a fact of life. So part of me wants to tell new students: ďGet used to it. Itís going to be really tough for a few years, and those first few critiques/all-nighters are going to be brutal, but they will prepare you for working in the creative industry. If this isnít for you, get a degree I something else and produce art as a pastime, not a profession.Ē

On the other hand, art school naturally attracts students that are often more emotionally delicate than their counterparts in other programs, and then encourages them to put incredibly personal, important parts of themselves on display in an unforgiving atmosphere. This is all anecdotal of course, but from what Iíve seen for myself and other creatives Iíve known, creating art often starts as a private endeavor, a deep introspective dive into oneself, often in response to external forces (bullying, moving a lot as a child, coming from a split household, feeing like or being treated like one of the weird kids). College is already a challenging, life-defining stage for any student which is hard enough. But throw on top that deadlines to produce something that previously acted as a mental escape, and a professor eviscerating your work because thatís their job, and itís simply too much. With this in mind I think, yes, of course these programs have a duty to their students to provide better mental healthcare and to foster a safer environment for students to get used to these facts of the industry, perhaps moreso than a traditional college. Failing to do so means youíre failing to provide students with the nurturing environment they need to become productive creative professionals, and whatís more itís simply irresponsible.

But I think we all know how for-profit colleges work, and putting the well-being of students first is usually lip service.

kedo fucked around with this message at Aug 11, 2019 around 12:21

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Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


SCAD is essentially the extreme of the problems that art schools have in varying degrees

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