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handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
Any quilters in this thread? I'm taking a quilting class later this month, and am feeling a little apprehensive about it. I usually stick with needlework, haven't used a sewing machine in years, but my mother has talked me into taking this class at her shop.

It's a simple pattern, blocks of two rectangles stacked next to each other, one light/one dark alternating, using the fabrics from this line: http://mordac.unitednotions.com/Attachments/attachments/images/assort/large/1867.15998.jpg . Mom will quilt it for me on her handy-dandy quilting machine monster.

Hopefully, it will go well and I can post a picture. Wish me luck.

Otherwise, for the thread, if anyone has any questions about cross stitch/needlepoint/hand embroidery in general, I can attempt to answer them. Don't know if anyone even does those anymore but me - knitting seems to be the current trend.

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handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Micomicona posted:

I used to embroider a lot when I was younger, and would like to start again because it was a lot of fun and a nice way to make fabric things prettier, but looking through craft stores for embroidery patterns I'm finding a lot of pastel kittens frolicking in front of crosses or doe-eyed children with bouquets of tulips full of butterflies and saccharine. Am I looking in the wrong places? Are there any embroidery (cross-stitch or freestyle) patterns that are less... that?
If you like free-hand, "transfer"-type embroidery, this site has some great patterns: http://www.sublimestitching.com . No saccharine patterns here, mostly kitschy cute stuff. This site also has some funny patterns: http://www.subversivecrossstitch.com , but they're not on a very challenging level, stitching-wise.

I love to stitch, but have the same problem - too many puppies, kittens, crosses, etc., so I tend to do a lot of sampler/blackwork projects. Blackwork has a great looking effect for not much work. It definitely avoids the "fluffy" problem. I especially like things like this: (picture not mine)



My current project for a while (haven't been stitching for a few months) is a map sampler for my husband - http://www.heritagestitchcraft.co.uk/pages/images/mgl093.jpg . Now that I've said that, I'd better finish it. :blush:

Oh, and another option is needlepoint. I've found that there are a lot of really stunning patterns for needlepoint, especially William Morris or Art Deco patterns. Needlepoint doesn't tend to hold my interest, so it's only good for small projects for me, plus I never can keep the tension right as I like to stitch in hand.

I will stop now. ;)

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

guaranteed posted:

I have been fighting the urge to buy that fabric for weeks because I already have so many projects in the works. No pictures of anything at the moment, though.

I find the only way to avoid accumulating a (big) stash is to plan a project for any fabric I have to have. It sort of works. I'm currently working on four projects in rotation, though, with a couple more stacked up, so I'm not buying Flirtations, dang it. I also have scrap quilts and crazy quilts that I work on whenever I have scraps from cutting a new project, because I'm trying to work in a zero-waste zone. It sounds insane, but it keeps me from getting bored with the monotony of a single project and putting it down and forgetting about it.
The Flirtations fabric came in one of those "jelly roll" things, so the pieces are already precut. Perfect for me as a beginner. I'm glad to see someone else liked the fabric - I think the only reason she was able to finally talk me into a class was because the fabric was so great looking.

As far as the stash thing, I'm with you there, except with needlework. I had to prune my stash a couple of years ago; I'm not saying how much I had, all I'll say is that I had four large rubbermaid tubs just full of patterns and magazines.

squirrellypoo posted:

Edit: boscokitty - I just noticed your username. We have a 6 month old cat. His name is Bosco.
Yay for Boscos! I hope he lives as long as my Bosco did - 18 years.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
26 quilt blocks so far. I am really enjoying this! I wasn't sure I would.



Here is the sample in the shop:



I don't plan on putting such a big border around mine, and especially not in that pink check.

This jelly roll malarky is definitely the way to go for beginners. All the cutting this pattern required was to cut the pre-cut strips into 4 1/2" segments.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
That neck is awesome. How thick is the cotton? It looks like a twill-pants type material.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
Still working on my quilt! This project started out as the pattern called for: one jelly roll, 35 blocks. It has now mutated into: 2 jelly rolls, 78 blocks, and a center printed panel, all of which plus borders will end up being 90x98 so it will cover up the big feet I sleep with. How did this happen?!?! :downs:

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Chryselephantine posted:

A question about quilting:

How difficult would it be to work with jersey knits for a quilt? First off, I've never quilted before but I do enjoy sewing - I've thought about trying quilting before. The reason I am more interested now is that I heard about someone in my area who makes quilts out of t-shirts. I would absolutely LOVE to have a quilt made from some of my kids' favorite baby and toddler clothes. Is this something a novice could aspire to or should I just pay to have the pro do it?
I just watched my mom make a t-shirt quilt for someone, and I would definitely say pay the pro to do it, but ask to see some examples of their work first. (Well, that's true of anything you're paying someone else to do.)

For one thing, the knits are very slippy to work with, and some of the thicker printing on the t-shirts was hard to quilt through. It was hard enough to keep the t-shirt material straight for piecing, and they were big pieces - baby clothes will mean smaller and more pieces to sew together. My 2 cents.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
My quilt top is almost done! All I have left to put on is the outer border and then that thing is getting quilted. It didn't get done for Valentine's Day, but whatever.



It's ended up huge, I've had a ton of fun doing it, and it convinced me to buy a cheap-rear end Brother machine for my very own so I don't have to keep going to my mother's shop all the time to sew.

In fact, I've had so much fun that I've already started on the next one:



It is this pattern, but with material I already had around the house. I know it's loud, but my daughter loves it, so she can put up with its loudness.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Ozma posted:

Is it worth it to get a subscription to that magazine? I picked up an issue a couple months ago and loved some of their stuff but I wasn't sure. I'm still mostly a beginning quilter though I like to pretend I'm a bit better than I am.

I'm so lazy, I'm STILL cutting pieces from some scraps that I inherited so I can put together a Flying Geese variation. I really want to get into applique more but am nervous.

I just subscribed, so I would say yes. My mom had a couple of back issues, and I bought this one myself - it's laid out nicely and they're really good about giving you instructions/measurements for bigger or smaller sizes. Also, they tend to show you at least one color alternative (besides the featured picture) for each quilt pattern in the magazine, and it seemed to have less "frou-frou" quilts than the other quilt magazines I bought.

I am super nervous about applique, although I don't know why as I suspect my needlework background will be a help with that. I guess I'll tackle that down the line. The bug has really bit me on this one.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
I will have that second quilt top finished tonight, and I'm already planning the next one. Help.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

guaranteed posted:

It's too late for you. I have six planned quilt tops in various stages of completion, at least five scrap tops I add to whenever I have scraps because I've decided to go zero waste, and cloth for at least four more, but I can't stop watching the shops for sales. It's an illness. In fact, the mailman just brought me a nice bundle of fat quarters, a Flirtations charm pack, and some other goodies. Fortunately my husband and I have a discretionary allowance system where we get to spend our own money on anything we want with no complaints from the other, so that keeps me in check a bit. Sort of.
It's definitely too late. Mom is out of town this week, so guess who's been watching the shop? Yep, I'm the fox in the henhouse. Lots of Moda fabric at family discount prices. Plus, I can work on projects while I'm there. That quilt top was already done at 3 this afternoon.

We have about the same system you described, so no complaints from him so far, of course I've only made two... Hopefully I won't become a fabric-holic. (would be so easy what with the shop, I'd better watch out.)

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Corla Plankun posted:

I have a really old (the person who gave it to me told me it could be 50 years) Kenmore sewing machine. I have no idea how to work a sewing machine, but I would really like to use this one. What is the procedure to adjust the tension of the top and bottom of the seam? Right now the upper portion ties the thread fairly loosely, and the lower portion is so tight I can't sew anything but pieces of paper.

I know this post is useless without pictures, but I don't currently have a working camera. If there is not a general rule of thumb for this thing I suppose I will just have to wait until I can photograph it properly.
If no one comes up with an answer, you might look to see if your model is listed on this page: http://www.sewusa.com/Sewing_Machine_Manuals/kenmore_Sewing_Machines_158.htm :10bux: isn't a bad amount to spend to make sure the thing's working right. (I just spent $15 on a manual from the Singer site for my grandfather who mysteriously wants to learn how to sew at age 87 and wants to use the machine my grandmother bought in 1950.)

Also, if your machine looks similar, this might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es24cH-uRQU That same user has lots of videos with that same machine.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

meche posted:

I have to say, I'm addicted. I have three in cutting phase as we speak. Actually I think I just love having justification for buying all these gorgeous fabrics I keep seeing!
That looks great! I've been seeing lots of black and white fabrics, and you're tempting me to buy some. (Also I bet it'll look really sharp with a red border.) I have three in cutting phase as well. Glad someone else is at the same stage as I am.

I took another class last week and made a table runner in red, white, and blue. Don't know what I'm going to do with a table runner of all things, give it to my grandmother maybe, but it was a quick small fast project and I learned how to bind something and had a side lesson in machine maintenance.

It looks like this except I made all the stars look like the one on the left, the others are too crooked for my taste.

Anyway, I typed too much, but what I'm getting at is a) your quilt looks great and b) help me I'm becoming addicted.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

meche posted:

Thanks! I went with the black and white so I didn't have to worry about colour for my first one, but ended up really glad I did.

How did you find the classes? I'm debating signing up for some myself, I just kind of did what I thought was right to make this one, but I think I need some help with the binding etc.
I've enjoyed the classes, but the two I've taken have been small (four or fewer students) so they may not be indicative of most classes. There were only two of us in the last class, which is why I got the side lesson in machine maintenance. I'd finished two quilt tops without changing a needle or oiling the machine and it was sounding like it. Now it's running much, much smoother.

That black and white was a great choice, as I said, it looks really sharp, a nice bold look. I have a little bit of some similar fabric that my mom had left over from a project, and I think I'm going to make a tote out of it. Don't know how that'll go, but I did find an easy-looking pattern, so we'll see. Post a picture when you get the border on!

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Not an Anthem posted:

Are there any websites that have a good description for step by step embroidery for idiots? I want to embroider a metal band logo on one of my sweaters and I have never embroidered, although I'm pretty handy with sewing and can crochet. I don't know how the stitching/patterning works (unless its just "COVER THE LINES WITH LOOPS OF THREAD!")
Here is a good resource for basic embroidery stitches: http://www.needlenthread.com/2006/06/basic-embroidery-stitches.html

She also has video clips of the stitches, if you learn faster that way: http://www.needlenthread.com/2006/10/video-library-of-hand-embroidery.html

You may want to practice on a more "flat" material than a sweater until you get the stitches down, knits can be tricky for embroidery right off the bat.

Edit: Crap, I forgot - put some kind of reinforcement behind the embroidery if it's not a tight knit. I've never embroidered on knits, but I'd imagine that's a necessity.

handbags at dawn fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Mar 13, 2008

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
It seems like most quilt patterns (blocks, anyway) have been around for hundreds of years, but they can still look fresh today, because often it's the fabric that makes them look dated, not the pattern.

If the idea of "patchwork" quilts is what's turning you off, the "turning twenty" patterns are pretty modern looking: http://image64.webshots.com/164/7/85/71/2651785710086574394ALDysu_fs.jpg

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Ozma posted:

So I'm opting for that two-of-a-kind quilt with the card trick block that I think we talked about before- it's the cover quilt on the April American Patchwork Quilting. Seems more manageable and a better showcase for cute fabrics.
I finished that one! I'm now working on another one, well, it was going to be the same pattern, but due to a mistake on my end, I've now mutated it into a pattern of my own making. I'm not up to hexagons yet, I'm really just sticking with squares/rectangles. Not brave yet.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2375689980_e42cd2d2a3_o.jpg

It still uses the two main blocks, 3"x3" and 3"x5 1/2", but moved around. The blocks are square and will be "on point," which makes it look like it was harder to do than it really was for some reason. I want to point out that I did not pick out that flowery fabric, I hate it, but it was free and I'm making the quilt for someone else.

I've now finished three quilt tops since the end of January, this will be the fourth (probably this week). I've got it bad.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Ozma posted:

When you quilted the two-of-a-kind, did you stick with the dragonfly or floral motif that they suggested? I'm not worried about the effort but am already dreading machine quilting it that way (though I'd probably stick to squiggles). I'm trying to decide if the quilt would lose something if I were to just quilt around the edges of each "square." One part of me thinks it would make the squares pop, the other thinks that it would not look as interesting if it wasn't quilted as much as it is in both of the finished shots. Does that make sense?
I was thinking of doing the "stitch in the ditch," which would have made the squares really pop out, as you said, but since the quilt was for my 9-year-old daughter, I had my mom quilt it on her machine. Her machine is similar to this http://www.crawfordcountywi.com/images/artisan/Jean-Mezera.jpg . She can't free-hand with it yet, it's better for tracing continuous patterns. She did a pattern that looked like this: (pardon my mad paint skills)


I just thought a tighter pattern would keep the quilt together better. (not much confidence in my sewing ability yet, and I like the way the "squiggly" quilting looks anyway)

Anyway, to actually answer the question, the quilt still had a lot of visual interest without quilting it the way they did. If I did it again, I'd stitch in the ditch with something that would blend in or even try the transparent quilting thread.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Ozma posted:

Thanks! I'm still kind of torn on it but I have time to think. I just started cutting today. :)

I just have a regular sewing machine but it's not too awful to use if I just get the feed dogs out of the equation. I think I'll just have to decide after I lay out all of the pieces.

But either way, that squiggly pattern you put up is exactly what I was thinking of so we're of like minds!
Glad to hear someone else likes the squiggles! I need to take a picture of the quilt - my daughter took it over to sleep with at her dad's house, and it hasn't made it back over here yet. (She wanted to show it off, I was so pleased.)

Have you tried a walking foot? It's a foot that hooks onto the machine in place of the regular foot (and the part the foot hooks onto) that has additional feed dogs on the top of the fabric, and the foot floats a little more than the regular one to handle several layers. I haven't gotten brave enough to quilt an actual quilt with it yet, but I've made a couple of little purses and it quilts those just fine. (It is also great to use to sew the first edge of the binding on a quilt.) Since it's got feed dogs coming from both directions, the fabric doesn't bunch or slide. I got one at JoAnn's for about fifteen bucks and it was well worth the money to me.

I don't work today, so guess what I'm going to be doing. Cleaning the house? Oh hell no.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

seriouslywtf posted:

Check out these badass pillows I made for my dad's birthday:



He loved them.
Are they schnauzers or scottie dogs? Either way, really cute. I bet he did love them.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

seriouslywtf posted:

They're schnauzers! I just drew it based off of a profile photo I found online. I'm a terrible drawer so I'm glad it turned out semi-recognizable.
They are - my first thought was schnauzer. I only put scottie dog in there in case I was wrong. :)

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
I went to a quilt show this weekend, and it was cool to see other people's quilts that had been entered in the contests. My favorite, that didn't win BUT SHOULD HAVE, was a western/cowboy themed quilt that looked totally normal from the front but had this fabric on the back:



:dance: I laughed and laughed, and when a grandmotherly woman walked by and said, "oh, I love the cowboys, look at that six pack!" I lost it.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

guaranteed posted:

Oh my god, I just saw fabric online somewhere that was just like that, only firemen. Crap. Where did I see it?
It's by Alexander Henry, apparently. He seems to have several kinds, firemen, policemen, cowboys, etc. When I was looking for it, I discovered that you WANT to have SafeSearch on when you gis for "shirtless cowboy fabric."



I can't find an image bigger than that one, sorry. You should have seen the bed-sized quilt with those "guys" on the back. It was pretty awe-inspiring.

edited to add construction workers lol

handbags at dawn fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Apr 28, 2008

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
I'm sorry to keep derailing this thread with quilting stuff, but I finally got around to taking pictures of the first one I finished.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/boscokitty/2451364767/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/boscokitty/2452192066/sizes/l/

It's aggressively bright, but it was made for a nine-year-old, so she loved it.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
I got my daughter this kit last weekend at the quilt show, and she got it done this morning. She's very pleased with it! (She's nine.)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/boscokitty/2463856685/sizes/l/

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
I had the same problem last week with my brand new machine, and I think it was just because the bobbin was either under- or overwound. I took the bobbin out and put another one in that I had wound at the same time as the first, and it worked fine, then put the first one back in and bang! same problem. I guess the tension just hosed up when that one was wound. I've changed bobbins at least six times since then, and even used the bad one (rewound of course) with no problems.

You might also make sure your bobbin case is nice and clean, if it's full of fuzz the bobbin thread or the needle might be catching on it.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
I may be wrong, but I would think goose down would be a no-go on a home sewing machine - I would think it would clog it up, maybe even break needles if you hit a feather shaft.

What you might think of doing is buying a synthetic (like PrimaLoft) comforter and using that as the batting of your quilt. I mean the kind of comforter that is made to put inside a duvet cover, those are pretty warm.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Philo posted:

I recently started making blankets for the local chapter of Project Linus in my area. The basic design I use is very simple, solid color and print right sides together, pin to batting, flip, and double edge. As far as technical skills, making these blankets is about as easy as it gets. And really cute to boot. The biggest problem I am having is cutting the batting. The rolls I get are usually 10 ft by 10 ft, while the blankets are usually around 4 ft by 5 ft, and I am finding it really difficult to cut the batting simply because I do not have enough room to roll it out and pin down the fabric. Does anybody have any suggestions?
Am I reading this wrong, or are you rolling out the huge roll, pinning the top/bottom to the batting and then cutting it out? If that's the case, why not cut the batting into 4x5 pieces ahead of time (then you only have to wrestle with the 10ft roll once in a while) and then you have a smaller piece to work with when you're pinning? If that's not what you meant, ignore me. Either way, Project Linus is an awesome cause.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

squirrellypoo posted:

I think the Speed Racer one is my fave. :)
You know, I usually don't like t-shirt reconstruction things, but yeah, that Speed Racer shirt is pretty cool. :cool:

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

RedFish posted:

Also, I take it that quilting cotton is much thinner than apparel cotton, but sometimes I find quilting cotton lumped under apparel even though there is a separate quilting section. Can it be used for apparel as well? I'm dying for a skirt in some of the quilting prints out there.

Thanks.
For what it's worth, lately some of my quilting magazines have been printing patterns for some pretty cute skirts and little girl dresses. So I'm sure there are some people out there that are already doing it.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

justasmile posted:

I recently purchased a 1930's Singer (lovely table, and the machine is in immaculate condition). I've only worked with a machine this old once before, which means I've been having a bit of a hard time figuring everything out. Once I finally figured out how to wind the bobbin and thread the machine properly, I was super excited to get started...only my machine won't sew properly. When I try to stitch, the threads don't form stitches; when I pull the fabric out from the machine after sewing, I am left with fabric and the top thread on top, bobbin thread on bottom. I am completely lost as to what is keeping my machine from stitching properly. I tried adjusting the tension, I rechecked how to thread the machine, and the bobbin seems to be threading through just fine. I also replaced the needle in case that was the issue. Any ideas on how to make my machine sew properly?
It sounds like the bobbin isn't completely in the right place, and it's not catching the top thread and pulling it down. Do you have a manual for it? I know that on the Singer website, if you have the model number (which is probably printed or engraved on the side), you can order a manual for $10-15 dollars. It might be something to consider.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

justasmile posted:

I downloaded the manual when I got the machine, but no luck in fixing the problem. In attempting to fix it, I've noticed a few other things. Namely, the machine will go a couple stitches before the top thread will de-thread itself from the needle. The thread doesn't break, and everything keeps feeding fine. It's almost as if it slips out of the needle's eye (but the needle is completely intact, so it's not possible for it to slip out).

I'm very confused as to what is going wrong with this. It's an older machine (1930's), so I understand it may have some issues, but I was really hoping to fix this without having to pay a ton to take it in. Does anyone else have any suggestions? I've tried adjusting the tension with no luck. I just want to be able to sew!
The only thing that I can think of would be if you weren't pulling the two threads out a couple of inches and holding them back behind the stitching so the machine won't pull the thread ends back into the sewing, but that's not what it sounds like you're doing.

You might go to the Sewing In General/Sewing Machines forum on craftster.org - there are a lot of people on there that have older Singer machines, and a lot of people who just know a ton about machines in general.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

BrideOfUglycat posted:

I hope this is the right thread to find help! :-)

I'm preparing to teach myself how to sew. My mom gave me my grandmother's electric sewing machine, a Montgomery Ward's UHT J1909. It's got to be from the 60's because my grandmother has been dead since 1983 and no one has used it since then. Unfortunately for me, that means no one has a clue where the manual is and I have no idea what all the parts are for or how to use it.

Is there a generic sewing machine guide I can use or a generic "How to use this machine" sheet I can look at? Is there anywhere I can go for help? I did a google search for the model number and it apparently doesn't exist. :-P
I'm not finding J1909 as a model, but are you sure it's not 1904 or 1939? Because those are models listed here: http://www.sewusa.com/Sewing_Machine_Manuals/Wards_Signature_Sewing_Machines.htm

You can't really look at a "generic sewing machine guide," as not all models thread the same, you don't put the needle in all models the same direction, etc., etc.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

RedFish posted:

Does anyone know what name is of the sewing tool that functions like two tracing wheels side by side that allow you to run along the cut edge of a fabric piece and it marks off the seam allowance?

I saw it in my travels and now I'm hankering to get one because I'm tired of having to trot my gauge over an entire seam and then sketch in the seam line. My sewing machine doesn't have measurements on it's foot plate, and even if it did managing curves using the plate is annoying and gives me puckering on my seams.

I've been googling like a madwoman but can't find the tool that I'm looking for. I could make one by lashing two tracing wheels together but then I'll have to dick around to get the measurements exact and it won't be adjustable.
It's called a "double tracing wheel." http://www.friendsofpr.com/regine/wheel.jpg.jpg

http://www.voguefabricsstore.com/store/catalog/Notion-Clover-Double-Tracing-Wheel-p-1196.html

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

RedFish posted:

I couldn't decide between :glomp: and :woop: so I had to use both!

Thanks so much!

No problem - my google-fu was just stronger than yours today. :)

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
I'm not that knowledgeable about jeans (just enough to know people get really weird about them) - but I do have to say I'm loving the insides of the pockets. :3:

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
You could also do it manually by hand-reversing the wheel, maybe?

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007

Cuddlebottom posted:

Does anyone know a relatively invisible way to reinforce embroidery to make it more durable? I put a cross stitch pattern on a white apron, but I'm worried that all the little thread ends will get yanked out in a week. Should I just coat the back stitches with fray glue, or maybe iron on interfacing?

I've used the first method in the past for what it's worth. Fray Check is pretty good and holds up to washing, although if it's something you wash often you may want to check it every couple of washes and reapply.

The best way to reinforce cross stitch/surface stitching is while you're stitching - be sure to lay the thread ends under plenty of other stitches and then knot them, then fray check the knots.

handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
I have used this before with good results: http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog.jsp?CATID=cat3423&PRODID=prd17555

Basically, you draw with it on tracing paper and then use the tracing paper as an iron-on transfer.

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handbags at dawn
Mar 8, 2007
If it's a wedding dress, you might contact local people in that industry - wedding planners, florists, bakers, and see if they've heard any names thrown around. People in any business tend to hear things (good and bad) about other tradespeople.

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