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Jehde
Apr 20, 2010

Who protects?


Grimey Drawer

Yeah if you have any other NR semi-autos you want to offload, now would definitely be the time as people are desperate to get anything. Seeing WK180Cs go for over $2k

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Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

EduardoEspecial posted:

"There's houses close by and people using those trails. We're gonna drive our side by side directly behind your backstop so we can gather ~*MEDICINE*~"

There were no houses within a kilometer, and an empty golf course 600 meter away through dense bush. Also no trail behind where we were shooting.

I don't want to go down the nostalgia train but I think that's the thing I miss most about growing up super rural in the 80s and 90s. Everyone had guns and no one cared as long as you didn't wreck someone's poo poo. We used to grab the guns and go to a gravel pit and make holes in paper. It started to change with C-67 when we couldn't take the handguns out too and it's been downhill since. One generation has been a huge cultural shift and I will be surprised (barring some cataclysm) if firearms ownership lasts another.

Coxswain Balls
Jun 3, 2001

I'm not looking for your validation through this telescope, just planets boobies bullets


College Slice

Everyone looking into their first .223 bolt actions be incredibly careful, because that's the road that leads down to reloading, ladder testing, and having to try out that different power just to see how it does.

All I'm saying is make sure you got a buddy with a chronograph.

Thermos
Mar 29, 2019



Jehde posted:

Yeah if you have any other NR semi-autos you want to offload, now would definitely be the time as people are desperate to get anything. Seeing WK180Cs go for over $2k

Before this poo poo storm I was thinking of selling my ACR. If I did it now I could buy some really cool milsurp, but gently caress it. If by some miracle it doesn't get banned I'll never be able to afford another one.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

It's called a hassle, sweetheart..



Coxswain Balls posted:

Everyone looking into their first .223 bolt actions be incredibly careful, because that's the road that leads down to reloading, ladder testing, and having to try out that different power just to see how it does.

All I'm saying is make sure you got a buddy with a chronograph.

I already have all this with .308

I just want something cheap to send downrange that isnít .22 or the ticking time bomb of legality that is my SKS.

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.

I was thinking, to sow the seeds for firearms law reform to be a successful campaign issue, groups like the CCFR and CSSA would need to start a slow and gradual public education campaign about firearm laws in Canada, like 30 second spots about one particular aspect of the laws and how it differs from the US. There would be a series of ads for different aspects.

This would have to unfold over the course of a year or two leading up to an election. The objective would be to make Canadians say "gee, I didn't know that". Ignorance is our enemy in this, but no non-gun owner wants to sit through a half hour lecture about the laws. Break it down, keep it simple, make it memorable. If we have ads that stick, then when we present an argument in favour of guns, people will be like "yeah, I remember hearing something about that on the radio" or something like that.

Chillyrabbit
Oct 24, 2012

The only sword wielding rabbit on the internet



Ultra Carp

CCFR did try to do that, but honestly the laws are so complicated you can't do 30 second soundbites easily.

They have a bunch of videos about 2 years old now talking about common gun control talking points.

Who has guns in Canada and how did they get them?

RCMP 10/22 magazine reinterpretation

Rod Giltaca also did a bunch of videos under Civil Advantage 4-6 years old now and might be slightly out of date.

How do you get a gun in Canada

Legal Transportation of non-restricted and restricted firearms

Secure Storage of a non-restricted firearm

and others....


Not to say we/they shouldn't try but it's hard to disseminate the information out there, and also do it in a simple format easy to understand. Hell the entire reason why I wrote this reddit post was because I was disgusted at how hard it was to read the laws in the criminal code, Firearms act, and associated regulations. Everything was scattered all over the place, when I wanted it all in one place as a quick stop shop for someone knowing nothing at all.

cougar cub
Jun 28, 2004



if you think that type of education matters then you don't understand the people who support gun restriction

David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.


I said this upthread, but I honestly believe this is a culture wars thing. I'm sure there is a segment of the population that is willing to take the time and effort to learn the laws and the statistics and come up with their own considered opinion, but I fear that for most people it's going to come down to "gun bad" or "gun good". What changes that sort of attitude? Personal exposure to guns as a useful tool and a fun hobby, not just things you see on the evening news connected to some atrocity or another.

It's why this clown show of a regulation seems to have actually worked out for them. Anyone with half a brain can tell that it's useless and arbitrary, but it doesn't matter: it's a win against people and ideas that the base doesn't like. You can see it in how this is sold, with extremely emotive language, and how it's defended (just look at the canpol thread for some of the myriad examples) - by pretending that advocates for the state of the law only three weeks ago are defective, bloodthirsty sexual deviants.

cougar cub posted:

if you think that type of education matters then you don't understand the people who support gun restriction

what he said

Thermos
Mar 29, 2019



This is 100% true. Its evident in the latest cbc article where they had an "expert" from the reserves basically saying if you want to own a handgun you're a degenerate.

I did an interview with cbc a couple weeks ago to try and tell things from a gun owner's point of view but it will probably never see the light of day.

After Portapique, lots of people in the community have decided to buy guns for protection. Obviously thats not a legal reason, but since people are doing it anyway.. I was thinking of doing some kind of info session for anyone thinking about getting their PAL. Just the real basics: how licensing works, some of the important laws, safe storage etc. Do you guys think that would be helpful?

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


Absolutely. That CBC piece was terrible and should have been retracted, so any efforts you can make to put out sane messaging are appreciated.

Thermos
Mar 29, 2019



I'm no fan of ctv either but they just posted this interview with a close family friend.

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/mobile/...LqA6uZ5heXfS3ME

Poor guy has been going through hell. The way he says "He knew I have firearms, legal of course." cracks me up and is pure Leon.

The irony of this tragedy being used to push through the ban is too much. Of four families I spoke to directly, all of them had someone with a gun waiting inside for the killer.

mewse
May 2, 2006



quote:

ďThey came to my house after they took Gabrielís girlfriend and they asked if anybody was in my house. I said, Ďno.í Another guy asked if there was anybody in my garage. I said, Ďno.í They leave. They didnít clear anything. They just got in their vehicles and left and left me there.Ē

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opi...ntrol-1.5572268

This was a good start in publishing balance, but I'd really like to see one that focuses on just how byzantine the licensing and classification system is, the level of scrutiny it takes to obtain a PAL/RPAL, and how close everyone rides to criminal charges just by having legal firearms. As a two-year newbie not keen on having my name on the CBC in any capacity, all I can do is beg someone else

Chillyrabbit
Oct 24, 2012

The only sword wielding rabbit on the internet



Ultra Carp

So apparently the Mossberg 715t, the non-restricted AR-15 lookalike that is really a mossberg plinkster 702 in an off brand looking AR-15 clamshell is prohibited as an AR15/AR10/M16/M4 variant.





They might be using the tortured Mossberg blaze 47 reasoning that its a variant of a variant. ie the mitchell m16 .22lr lookalike is prohibited so now the mossberg ar15 lookalike is prohibited......

McTinkerson
Jul 5, 2007

Dreaming of Shock Diamonds

At this point I am running under the assumption that my RIA / Armscor Mig22 is prohibited unless proven otherwise. gently caress.

Frank Dillinger
May 16, 2007
Jawohl mein herr!


If itís a semi auto and black, itís not if but when.

I donít get why they didnít just ban all semi-autos at this point.

Jehde
Apr 20, 2010

Who protects?


Grimey Drawer

They don't want to upset Garand fudds. That seems to be the line in the sand.

Rumours about the ATRS Modern Sporter finally getting prohibited tonight. The Shooting Edge also debuted their cheaper Modern Sporter clone from Sterling Arms International today, which is still for sale. Hopefully some clarification tomorrow.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


Grimey Drawer

Is the G11 still banned?

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

Jehde posted:

They don't want to upset Garand fudds. That seems to be the line in the sand.

Rumours about the ATRS Modern Sporter finally getting prohibited tonight. The Shooting Edge also debuted their cheaper Modern Sporter clone from Sterling Arms International today, which is still for sale. Hopefully some clarification tomorrow.

I know nothing makes sense here but why is this not an AR-15 variant? How is it non restricted?

Jehde
Apr 20, 2010

Who protects?


Grimey Drawer

Uh well, it's complicated, but the important part is that the upper and lower receiver do not mate the same way AR-15s do. I think there's some legal argument that it is a derivative of a prototype AR-10 design, and AR-10 variants were prohibited from the OIC, but yeah it's still TBD.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

It's called a hassle, sweetheart..



How/where do I measure my shotgun bore to see whether I have to prepare a funeral pyre? I have a 500A 12ga and I no longer know what's going on in this crazy place. I'm so tired of waiting for the other shoe to drop on all this on top of all the other bad news in 2020 -- if I didn't really REALLY enjoy going to the range I would probably give in and just divest from this hobby

Martytoof fucked around with this message at 13:16 on May 20, 2020

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


Don't quit! I never thought shooting was something I'd get into, and my other hobbies are even less likely to re-open any time soon, but I have a feeling this OiC gets struck down by the CCFR lawsuit or something even bigger behind it. It reeks of something the government doesn't expect to be in power for when it eventually fails (see: Harper's re-write of prostitution laws that went straight back for a Charter challenge and another decade of court time).

Thermos
Mar 29, 2019




The reality is even more hosed up. It's not my story to tell, but I hope all the details will come out in time.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

It's called a hassle, sweetheart..



Yeah, I was being a little extreme but honestly with everything going on in the world right now having the government make these wishy washy decisions about what is and isn't prohibited is just such an extra special fingers-massaging-temples moment in this shitshow that is 2020 that it boggles my mind.

I'm just so tired of waiting for the other shoe to drop. As soon as they prohibit these rifles someone will use another to kill someone and this "debate" will continue to push for further restrictions. In one very real aspect I would almost rather that the government just push to abolish private firearms ownership outright because at least then I wouldn't need to worry whether my SKS or M48 is on the block next week or whether the investment I make in a firearm is going to be an expensive "rental" in the long run.

Obviously I don't want, nor believe that this should happen, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I prefer my dejection and disappointment all in one big dose rather than the stab of a thousand individual OICs and nonsensical laws.

I know it sounds like the same idiot "slippery slope" argument I hate reading on CGN, but once they've decided that all the "scary" guns are gone and someone is murdered with a Savage Axis, who honestly believes that there won't be another public outcry for further restrictions? Nor would I say there shouldn't be an outcry against gun violence, but what is the logical end of that given the way the governments until now have handled the issue?

A little ranty, I know, I apologize, but this has been on my mind for the past few weeks and it's probably blown way out of proportion by the sense of confusion around how they are somewhat arbitrarily prohibiting. In the end it's just a hobby for me and I'll lawfully obey whatever stupid regulations are pushed down my gullet no matter how much I may disagree, but I'll be pretty grumpy about it :|

large hands
Jan 24, 2006



Martytoof, that's a pretty good summary of how I feel about all this nonsense. When people ask me about it it's hard to explain why I'm so annoyed. All these arbitrary proclamations and secret bans are getting loving ridiculous. Anyway, disband the RCMP.

large hands fucked around with this message at 15:05 on May 20, 2020

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

Martytoof posted:

Yeah, I was being a little extreme but honestly with everything going on in the world right now having the government make these wishy washy decisions about what is and isn't prohibited is just such an extra special fingers-massaging-temples moment in this shitshow that is 2020 that it boggles my mind.

I'm just so tired of waiting for the other shoe to drop. As soon as they prohibit these rifles someone will use another to kill someone and this "debate" will continue to push for further restrictions. In one very real aspect I would almost rather that the government just push to abolish private firearms ownership outright because at least then I wouldn't need to worry whether my SKS or M48 is on the block next week or whether the investment I make in a firearm is going to be an expensive "rental" in the long run.

Obviously I don't want, nor believe that this should happen, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I prefer my dejection and disappointment all in one big dose rather than the stab of a thousand individual OICs and nonsensical laws.

I know it sounds like the same idiot "slippery slope" argument I hate reading on CGN, but once they've decided that all the "scary" guns are gone and someone is murdered with a Savage Axis, who honestly believes that there won't be another public outcry for further restrictions? Nor would I say there shouldn't be an outcry against gun violence, but what is the logical end of that given the way the governments until now have handled the issue?

A little ranty, I know, I apologize, but this has been on my mind for the past few weeks and it's probably blown way out of proportion by the sense of confusion around how they are somewhat arbitrarily prohibiting. In the end it's just a hobby for me and I'll lawfully obey whatever stupid regulations are pushed down my gullet no matter how much I may disagree, but I'll be pretty grumpy about it :|

So did they just not sell that many Type 81s or what

How has it been flying under the radar all this time

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

It's called a hassle, sweetheart..



But thatís what Iím saying, itís so nonsensical. AR15 bad, but hereís a gun that can do exactly the same thing and looks just as scary but itís A-OK*








* until itís not

Fearless
Sep 3, 2003

DRINK MORE MOXIE



Thermos posted:

The reality is even more hosed up. It's not my story to tell, but I hope all the details will come out in time.

The more of this ghastly story that comes out, the less and less sympathetic I am to the idea that we're supposed to entrust our safety solely to the RCMP.

mewse
May 2, 2006



Fearless posted:

The more of this ghastly story that comes out, the less and less sympathetic I am to the idea that we're supposed to entrust our safety solely to the RCMP.

Farmers in Saskatchewan arming themselves was/is a real thing

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


Throatwarbler posted:

So did they just not sell that many Type 81s or what

How has it been flying under the radar all this time
My thoughts exactly. I'm aghast at how communist party weapons factories get out of this while Canadian manufacturers (including whoever we sometimes order our CAF infantry rifles from??) get deliberately ratfucked.

At least the municipal handgun restrictions require legislation at two levels of government that voters love pitting against each other, but:

a) holy poo poo I cannot vote for the guy who's sucking our schools dry and burning out healthcare workers to the point their partners create E/N threads
b) if governments overlap long enough for it to pass in my hometown, it will be illegal to run a range or own a pistol inside city limits while handgun gun crime escalates unabated

mewse posted:

Farmers in Saskatchewan arming themselves was/is a real thing
... yeah but look how that turned out. "NBD just going to reach over this unconscious guy with my finger on the trigger of my $200 Toka- oopsie"

Shumagorath fucked around with this message at 16:47 on May 20, 2020

TheCenturion
May 3, 2013
HI I LIKE TO GIVE ADVICE ON RELATIONSHIPS

Martytoof posted:

But thatís what Iím saying, itís so nonsensical. AR15 bad, but hereís a gun that can do exactly the same thing and looks just as scary but itís A-OK*








* until itís not

And hereís a gun that canít do the same thing, but looks like it can. Banned.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

I hope these new regulations trigger a never ending race to find more obscure guns to get around infinitely more elaborate regulations. It's literally Forgotten (by the government) Weapons in real life.

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

Until they just say no new FRT entries. It's more likely than you think.

Chillyrabbit
Oct 24, 2012

The only sword wielding rabbit on the internet



Ultra Carp

Even if the RCMP never inputted any new FRT entries you should still be able import firearms albeit more expensively and time consuming as CBSA would have to check every single firearm to see if its legal in Canada instead of using the reference table.

I doubt the RCMP could unilaterally block import of firearms by never classifying them and if they did that is an action that would get them sued into the ground. CBSA decides what is allowed into Canada not the RCMP.

Firearms reference table

quote:

The Firearms Reference Table (FRT) is not a legal instrument. The FRT is an administrative document created by the RCMP's firearms experts who have, based on criteria in the definitions found in section 84 of the Criminal Code and the supporting Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted SOR/98-462, and the Firearms Act, conducted technical assessments of firearms to assist law enforcement officers, customs officers, and officials responsible for the regulation of firearms with the identification and classification of firearms. The aforementioned Acts and Regulations are the prevailing legal authority with respect to firearm classification.

mewse
May 2, 2006



Wasn't part of the last conservative firearms reform to prevent the firearms lab from sitting on a classification for 2 years?

Chillyrabbit
Oct 24, 2012

The only sword wielding rabbit on the internet



Ultra Carp

Repealed by Goodale in 2016 as it was only a directive. Did it almost as soon as he got into office.

Thermos
Mar 29, 2019



Can someone explain to me, an idiot, what happens if Barney Fife decides to stop me with say an ATRS or other new prohib thats not in the OIC?

I also wonder if they are just queuing up more stuff, waiting for the next tragedy to unleash another OIC and ban them officially.

David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.


Thermos posted:

Can someone explain to me, an idiot, what happens if Barney Fife decides to stop me with say an ATRS or other new prohib thats not in the OIC?

I also wonder if they are just queuing up more stuff, waiting for the next tragedy to unleash another OIC and ban them officially.

To your first point: You probably couldn't get away with it, at least if the prosecutor knew how to prove you were fully aware of the change, but I do wonder what will happen if some genuine ignorant gets arrested for possession of an "AR-15 variant"... and the old RCMP paperwork proving that it wasn't considered an AR-15 variant a month ago. A law that, as this was, is promulgated largely in secret and never publicly communicated is probably very difficult to enforce in court. The problem is that, often, the process is the punishment, so 'winning' the case after years of wasted time and tens of thousands of lost dollars would be cold comfort.

It would be helpful to have some legal precedent showing what a variant is; it's my understanding that some AR-15 variants as now defined share essentially no interchangeable parts and operating using a completely different action (short-stroke piston vs. direct impingement, for example). It'd be a fools' errand to try to win that case, though, because the gov'ts next step would just be to ban that gun by its own name Just Because, which is something that they get to do now.

To your second point: Of course they are.

David Corbett fucked around with this message at 19:28 on May 20, 2020

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Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


I just got a flyer for M1 Garands and a bunch of extremely AR-looking 12GAs and carbines. I have a feeling the antics will continue well past the end of this government.

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