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slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Nine Lives posted:

So what's with Canada's gun registry? I've heard some interesting things about it, like it's required but that practically no one does it, and that it's basically a sprawling, beaurocratic mess that everyone is pissed their tax dollars are spent on.

Well, it's basically a mixed bag right now.

To totally "kill" the long gun registry, it will take an act of parliament.

The problem we have is that the Government in power is anti-registry, but every other party is pro-registry. The issue is that the government is in power in a minority situation so any bill to be passed either requires the support of another major party *or* not have another party show up to vote so it passes.

So, the ruling conservatives have a couple of things they're trying to do. The easiest angle for them to do and is totally within the power of government is to give it the absolute basics of funding and call an amnesty for long gun transfers/registering. In essence, if enough time passes and people don't register/advise sales/transfers it'd become so horrendous to re-institute even the lefty parties would balk at doing it.

Secondly, the major rival to the conservatives is the Liberal party. These are the guys that made an election pledge to ban handguns a few years ago... and lost. They are so incredibly weak kneed and scared shitless of an election the Conservatives have been passing legislation and the liberals just haven't bothered showing up for voting, because if they did the Government would fall. In other words, they're playing politics.

Cliffs:

The long gun registry is still in effect, but is slowly getting gutted and starved. A bill is coming up that may kill it once and for all, but it hasn't been voted on yet.

Handgun/restricted firearm registration isn't going anywhere and likely never will. Indeed, I still totally expect handguns to be banned if the Liberals ever get back into power.

Licensing is not going anywhere either.

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slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Blistex posted:

I hear that Stockwell Day is also a 12(6) guy himself.

Of course. He lived in Alberta for almost 20 years. We get one automatically after we vote for the Alberta PCs.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Cruster! posted:

This hasn't happened so much recently (i.e. Tavor, P90), but we're wary and cynical for good reason - we're one election away from losing it all.

Sad but true. That's the main reason I haven't expanded my collection recently with any "evil" guns. I am one on the top of the list for a Tavor, but I passed because I firmly believe the Liberal idiots will ban more scary looking Semis and all pistols the first year when they get back into office. Toronto is crying too much about guns, and Ontario is the Liberal breadbasket. What they want, they'll get.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


DrakeriderCa posted:

There's no way that they would confiscate. Someone made a rough estimate of the cost of compensating gun owners for the confiscation of every semi-automatic rifle and handgun in Canada, and I think it was about $2B. They'll probably grandfather. So it isn't a bad idea.
You're forgetting a few key things here.

These are Liberals. Spending money on anti-gun hype bullshit is absolutely nothing to them.

While I agree that confiscating all semis is unlikely, confiscating a few especially scary ones is something I would absolutely not put past them, with or without compensation. This is not without precedent.

Remember how loving freaked out they were about possibly putting property rights in the charter a couple of years ago? I actually think that their hate on for firearms is a big part of that.

And lastly, even if you're correct and they do grandfather, it is within the realm that the next bout of laws they'll slap on us are so restrictive for scary guns that you won't be able to even go shooting with them like many of the other prohibs. I know of people that can't even get ATTs anymore for their prohibs.

My tinfoil hat might be especially built up today, but I don't trust those fuckers as far as I can throw them.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


For those that HAVE committed to Tavors, I just received word right from the source that they are now shipping to customers.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


HPL posted:

You know, I'm pretty sure that in reality the Liberals don't really care about firearms that much, it's just that it's an easy way to score votes with the left-wingers that don't bother to do their homework on the subject, which means just about all of them.

I'd like to agree with you, but I look at it this way:

*Other* than the pain in the rear end the process of actually doing an amendment, what is a good, valid reason to not have property rights? Especially from the oppositions' viewpoint?

Remember their big argument (and I swear to god I am not making this up): OH, YEAH, WELL, IF THERE WERE PROPERTY RIGHTS A FEW HUNDRED YEARS AGO SLAVES COULD STILL BE PROPERTY!!!!

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Cyrano4747 posted:

We've got property rights down here, up to a point ("nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." -5th Amendment) and we don't have slaves any more .

Impossible. According to the liberals this couldn't happen.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Is Genesee anywhere near Wabamun? I ask this as I live nowhere really close to Edmonton, but I do drive through sometimes.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


For the first time in many, many months I went to CGN. In between grabbing tissues to wipe the blood from my eyes, I came across a thread that a poster named Sxyglock17 got himself arrested and being denied bail. Presumably for doing something really loving stupid about bringing in PS90s.

Anyone know what happened? I don't know the guy but I am curious.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Gtab posted:

That shotgun is hilarious.

From the bit that I did see on CGN before I ran away in horror, I think he had a launcher mounted on it too.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


DrakeriderCa posted:

gently caress I HATE WIRELESS.

From what I understand, he:
- falsified information on import and export documents regarding the PS90's, mags and ammo
- underdeclared the mags
- didn't pin the mags
- underdeclared the ammo
- attempted to import everything that was declared as a personal importation, despite his acting as a defacto importer and broker

All in addition to stealing about $70k from legitimate, trusting Canadian gun owners in the process. He's a fuckbag of the highest degree, who somehow still has apologists on CGN.

Oh, and he's been manufacturing his own explosive rounds for the launcher and bragging about it openly. So he's stupid too.

Holy poo poo, what a douche. That is pure ammo for the anti crowd even though he got caught. I hope he's sent away for a long time.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


DrakeriderCa posted:

Holy poo poo. Canada Ammo has answered a lot of dreams earlier today. They're bringing the Norinco Model 97 in this fall/winter for $875 shipped, free shipping ( ) and with a free scope mount if you put down a $100 deposit. They're going to be non-restricted (475mm barrel) and built just for CanAm.

Jesus I really want one of these now, especially if it's just $875. Lever has them for $1450, and our store had one in for $1500. Crazy. poo poo, I'll probably be putting up the money soon.
I just saw this too.

I'm all over this action. Bullpup? Non-Restricted? Guaranteed to make the BAN THE GUNS people go absolutely ape poo poo if they caught wind of it? Count me in. Making a $100 deposit tomorrow.

Even though the website says Dec delivery, I would be shocked if it was before next spring.

quote:

It's a Type 97. Or T97. And yeah, I've handled the one we had in the store. It's nothing crazy - the fit and finish is modern norinco. It works well, but it's not as polished as the Tavor.
I don't think you're knocking it, but it is also less than 1/3 the price of an (overpriced IMHO) Tavor. If the finish is equiv to a CQ-311, I'd be happy enough with that. Is it?

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


mikerock posted:

Lever is the only importer in Canada at this time.

And they're not even lying. It isn't December/2009 yet.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Well, I just pre-ordered the Type 97. The fuckers changed their price on me too...


.
.
.
.


It's now $849 shipped.

I'm now anxiously awaiting for 2009 to roll around.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Coxswain Balls posted:

They ask for your PAL info when you order, so you may run into problems with that.

No they don't, or at least they didn't with mine. I just had to check a box that I am aware I'll have to supply it. And it was processed (online) at that.

I would be somewhat surprised if they didn't want to take is $100 right now even though he's a PAL virgin. They've got nothing to lose really.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Pretty Little Rainbow posted:

Eh, I'll give it a shot when I get paid. See what happens. Probably throw them an email or something.

They have an 800 number, so just call him up, clear it and order it at the same time.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


economic haircut posted:

B.C. shooter here. I had quite enjoyed the attitude towards firearms in my small town until a couple of weeks ago.
Out of curiosity, can you share where this happened?

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


I bought one.

And, at risk of getting my TFR membership card revoked, I haven't used it yet.

It seems well enough built though, I'll give it that.

They also "thoughtfully" included a pistol grip with mine, which if actually attached would make it a prohib.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Flanker posted:

Lies. It would change it to restricted. You have 30 days to notify the CFC you've made a change. Or you can put the original stock back on.
Actually, I meant to say restricted.

Yes, I'm a putz.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Hey, any of you have experience with Target Sports out of Ontario for mail order?

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


DocCynical posted:

CFC says what?

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155147

According to this, pistol grip away.

While that letter could be legit, some of the wording sounded pretty fishy in addition to the bad grammer. "Very" legal?

I would also note that (quelle surprise) the law, as written is ambiguous.

quote:

details that the firearm is reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by means of folding, telescoping or otherwise

So, somehow a pistol grip exempt from "otherwise?"

Even though the impression that is given is by something that may actually change length via some mechanical actuation, the regs as written certainly do not specify that is the case from what I read. Not that Canadian gunlaws make any sense.

Edit: Jesus christ, I did some looking around CGN for the first time in ages. I feel like I should wash my eyes with bleach. Zombies, POSTS IN ALL CAPS are just the tip of the iceberg. Sheesh. I don't miss it at all.

slidebite fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Aug 8, 2008

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Cyrano4747 posted:

One of them had a CGN shirt, the one with that beaver with the rifle tossing the peace sign (or V for Victory sign if you're from 1940s England).

I've actually got one of those.
Don't ask.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


What's the opinion of Bul 1911s?

http://www.marstar.ca/gf-BUL/M5-Govt.shtm

I sold my Norinco 45 a year or so ago, but still have a couple boxes of Ammo that need to get shot. The obvious solution is buying a pistol.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Flanker posted:

my bro and I just did an ammo run together. (his first). I got 250 rounds of .40 for $75, 100 rounds of 9mm mak for $24 and some other junk. My brother got 300 rounds of 762x54r for $50. I wanted to kick myself at the register because they take cad$ at par.

Any problems bringing the ammo back across the line?

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Heard on the radio this AM that some poor fucker got plugged at Wild West in West Edmonton mall this weekend. Anyone know what happened?

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


DrakeriderCa posted:

A quick says the guy ducked under the barriers and walked downrange while the range was hot. We'll have to wait for more details. gently caress, I was just there this weekend looking at handguns.

Figured it must have been something like that. If so, jesus christ, what an idiot. Poor person that pulled the trigger must feel absolutely terrible.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Kewsh posted:

I'm starting to think it was suicide. There just is no reason what so ever to run out there other than to kill yourself. Must have been hoping that a relative would get the insurance payout.

I kind of doubt it. Never underestimate human stupidity. I've seen people run out on hot ranges before for insanely stupid reasons (rounds rolled out of their stall, target blew away, etc) with near disastrous results.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Anyone interested in a bunch of East German militaria? I was thinking of posting something in the SA Mart but being there is quite a bit of stuff (roughly a wardrobe box from a moving company) postage to the US would cost a fortune.

If I have any fellow Canadians interested, I'd prefer to keep it on this side of the line.

Does anyone think there would be a market for it on SA Mart? Hats (helmets/peak visors) complete unis, shirts, decorations, etc.

Gtab posted:

entree fees

Maybe they're serving lunch at it?

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


So, sounds like Harper is setting up the stage to pull the pin on Governement within 2 weeks.

As much as I love him :bigtran: I fear best we can hope is another Conservative minority, unless people actually wake the gently caress up and realize he's done pretty much everything he said he would do and he really is the lesser of all the evils out there.

Edit: To keep this TFR related: If Dion gets in I'll bet $50 with anyone here that will take me up on it (I'm serious) that he'll propose, and get, a handgun ban. All the lefties want one so loving bad they don't even bother to hide it anymore.

slidebite fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Aug 26, 2008

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


HPL posted:


I don't think a handgun ban makes sense for the Liberals because the people that would support it wouldn't put nearly as much money down on it as the people that would oppose it. .....

The political benefit would also be smaller than it would be worth because a handgun ban would achieve nothing as far as statistics go, which would not satisfy those who casually supported it.
That's all irrelevant though, unfortunately. Even up to the last election, Paul Martin trumped it out as a major platform even though he had to know drat well in the big scheme of things it would hardly do anything to crime and take away the freedom of law abiding citizens.

Unfortunately, the Liberals and even old PCs would far rather go for the vocal minority than the silent, or undecided majority. If for nothing else it shows HOW TOUGH ON GUN CRIME they are ( ), which, it seems the special interest groups in 416 still try to get mileage with.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


The thing that worries me though is if they are clever enough and don't make it an election issue, they will just put a bill up during parliament which the NDP and almost certainly PQ will endorse. Especially if there is another tragedy, even south of the border, to capitalize on. That old windbag Wendy Caulkier will be milking a new Liberal government so loving hard that teet would be get a callus.

Actually, I half expected them to do something along those lines the past couple years being the Conservatives couldn't block it if they tried.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


I really hope you're loving around, because Layton is easily the most anti of the 3 - he said last year that guns don't need to be present in a city and should all be locked up at a secure facility at the range.

gently caress him and his loving commie policies that would gently caress this country over so bad some provinces might actually look at leaving.

I'd rather have Dion calling the shots over that gently caress, but that's really choosing between a poo poo sandwich and runs soup.

quote:

The Conservatives get to pretend to be calling the shots and get the nice offices in the House. The Liberals can blame the Conservatives for everything while making handshake agreements with them under the table.
Liberals feel like the might be able to gain momentum and I think Harper thinks he can still pull a minority, or if he runs a loving brilliant campaign possibly even more. In reality, the "scandals" he's facing right now are so minor the news and opposition really have to work hard to keep it in the limelight, so it's probably not an awful time.

slidebite fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Aug 26, 2008

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Ambrose Burnside posted:

A) He's the prettiest of the three.
Really?

Harper isn't all that bad, certainly quite stately.


Dion, while maybe not as stately as Harper and has a bit of deer in the headlights look, isn't half bad as a man.


And then there is Layton (untouched original photo)

quote:

B) I'm one of those mysterious left-wing pro-gun types.
Unfortunately, you've picked the wrong team if your actually pro-gun. I'd personally like to own my gun and not bankrupt the country enacting gia-normous social programs that take away personal responsibility.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Cyrano4747 posted:

Oh sweet, I was worried I was going to have to go to CGN for this today.
CGN posters know how to attach photos to their posts?

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


HPL posted:

Meh. I've tried the "living under a smiley NDP leader with a moustache" thing before and it didn't end well for anyone when they drove business away from the province and ran the economy into the ground while failing to keep their voter base happy, judging by all the strikes.
I lived in BC under this NDP (nice 'stash, Glen). The scandals and horrific budgets that these crooked fuckers pulled off were unbelievable. I know that the Provincial and Federal NDP are in theory different, but they are so ideologically similar that even the thought of them getting into Federal power (will never happen, I know) scares the poo poo out of me.

Oh, news today:

quote:

The prime minister said he is continuing to consider whether an election needs to be called, a decision he has said he expects to make in the next few weeks. Senior Conservatives have suggested Harper could pull the plug on his minority government as early as Sept. 2.

"The country must have a government that can function during a time of economic uncertainty," Harper said.

He said he is not willing to wait for Sept. 9, the day Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion has suggested he could meet with Harper and discuss the issue of whether Parliament can continue as is.
Anyone want to start an election pool? I'll actually take the 2nd.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Well, at risk of turning this toooo much into a political thread, the political pundits are pretty sure it's going to happen next week, with the actual vote to occur on Oct 14.

quote:

Prime Minister Stephen Harper made an argument Tuesday for pre-empting his own fixed-election law and dissolving Parliament, all but formally declaring he will call a snap election next week...........He suspected if Harper does trigger a vote, the election will be called on Sept. 5 or 6, with a voting day of Oct. 14.

One thing I will say I like about the Canadian system over the US is we don't have 2 years of active planning for the next election. Sure, while in office they do everything they can do get in again next time, but election is called, you vote about a month later. Short and sweet campaign.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Geez, I really don't want to keep making political poo poo in this thread, but I found this a real interesting read and thought some of those here would also.
Election call actually strategy to destroy the Liberals

quote:

OTTAWA -- Conventional wisdom suggests Stephen Harper must be mad to thrust the country into an election at a time when he has little hope of winning a majority.

The prime minister himself has acknowledged that public opinion polls "aren't particularly wonderful."

"My expectation is that we will have another minority," Harper said Wednesday in Tuktoyaktuk, N.W.T., where he's on a three-day, campaign-like swing through the Arctic.

So why have an election?

"It gives the government a fresh mandate that will give the government another couple of years to proceed," said Harper.

A former chief of staff to Harper suggests there's more to this seemingly self-evident, benign response than meets the eye.

Tom Flanagan, a political scientist at the University of Calgary, believes Harper would be satisfied to return with a strengthened minority -- a result that would throw the Liberals into chaos, thereby advancing the prime minister's longterm strategy of destroying Canada's so-called natural governing party.


"I don't think Harper has to be thinking about a majority at all," Flanagan said in an interview.

"Strategically, this is sort of a prolonged war of attrition."

As Flanagan sees it, the first major battle in this incremental war occurred in 2004, when Harper managed to reduce Paul Martin's Liberals to a minority. In the second clash in 2006, Harper won his own Conservative minority.

The third skirmish, which Harper appears set to launch next week, likely won't kill what Flanagan jokingly refers to as "the evil empire." But, if the Tories can win a few more seats at the Liberals' expense -- an outcome Flanagan considers realistic given Harper's superior campaign skills and the Tories' fatter war chest -- he predicted that would be enough to throw the Grits into a longterm tailspin that could eventually lead to their demise.

"You can fight a war with some objective less than total victory," he said of the coming campaign.

If the Liberals lose even a handful of seats, Flanagan predicted they'll immediately dump Leader Stephane Dion, a forecast echoed privately by plenty of Grits. The party would have to embark on a costly leadership campaign before most contenders from the last contest, including Dion, have paid off their leadership debts.

Moreover, a reduction in popular vote would mean the already cash-strapped Liberal party would get less money in election expenses rebates and in its annual public subsidy. Flanagan said that could make it difficult for the Liberals to pay off any debts from the coming election campaign and harder to secure bank loans for a future campaign.

Hence, he concluded, another Tory minority "would be enough to throw the Liberals into turmoil and give Harper . . . a virtually free hand in Parliament for quite a while and really handicap his main opponent."


Not surprisingly, Dion and other opposition leaders have a different assessment of Harper's strategy.

They contend the prime minister is inventing excuses for an early election strictly because he fears Tory fortunes will plummet over the fall as the government is hit with further bad news about the sluggish economy and various alleged ethical lapses.

They charge that Harper wants to pre-empt parliamentary committee hearings into the so-called Cadman affair and Tory party spending irregularities in the 2006 campaign.

And, they say, he wants to get the vote out of the way before Julie Couillard releases her tell-all book on Oct. 14, which promises more juicy details about her biker gang past and how her former relationship with Maxime Bernier ended in his resignation as foreign affairs minister.

Flanagan doubted such potential landmines -- which he believes could be easily defused -- are directly influencing Harper's decision to pull the plug on his government.

However, he said Harper would rather call the election himself, on his own timing and terms, than wait for the combined opposition parties to topple the government later this fall over some trumped up scandal.

"He doesn't like being at the mercy of others. He likes to be in control of what he's doing."

As plausible as the various theories on what's motivating Harper may be, Tory insider Bob Plamondon suspects only one thing would push Harper "over the edge" into an election: the prospect of winning a majority.

"I suspect that there's some pretty strong or in-depth party polls that are riding by riding, that are persuading him that his chances are pretty good right now,"
said Plamondon, author of a soon-to-be-released book chronicling the successes and failures of the Conservative party since Confederation.

"There may be some inner confidence that they can move those numbers closer to a majority."
Not sure if I share the authors hypothesis, but Harper is incredbily shrewd and intelligent. I certainly wouldn't put it past him and I'd give him a fat (for me) donation and a prayer at night
I don't pray, but I'll make an exception

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Well, Qubecor's can once again sleep soundly knowing their government is extra-vigilant.

New Gun Law in Effect in Quebec

quote:

Quebec's new gun control legislation, Bill 9, came into force Monday.

The legislation is dubbed Anastasia's law in memory of 18-year-old Anastasia DeSousa, who was killed during the September 2006 Dawson College shooting.

The law bans the possession of firearms in schools and daycare centres, and on public and school transportation.


Fines for contravening the law forbidding firearm possession on those premises range from $500 to $5,000.

Under the new rules, teachers, gun club owners, and public transit and health-care workers are also required to report suspicious behaviour relating to firearms, even if it contradicts doctor-patient or any other confidentiality.

Further, there will be mandatory supervision of target practice where restricted and banned firearms are in use.

'These are small measures'

Wendy Cukier of the Coalition for Gun Control says the new law is a step in the right direction.

"These are small measures, but improvements are always incremental," she said in a phone interview.

Cukier praises the law's provision on reporting suspicious behaviour.

"A lot of the information about risk factors is not in police databases, but in the community," she said. "It's giving police additional tools as well as resources and will have an impact."

While Canada's gun control laws are largely a federal responsibility, Cukier noted that provincial legislation can strengthen the federal laws and limit loopholes.

Quebec's new laws were drafted after Kimveer Gill killed De Sousa during a shooting rampage at Dawson College. Another 20 people were injured.

Quebec now has some of the strictest gun control laws in Canada.

Montreal's École Polytechnique massacre in 1989, where a gunman shot and killed 14 women, led the federal government to toughen gun laws.
And I'm positive a law like this would have made Mr. Crazy Nuts think twice about killing.


Oh, but windbag is working on more:

quote:

Cukier will continue to lobby for stricter gun control.

She noted that Gill possessed a semi-automatic weapon and was a member of a gun club.

"We're still working to ensure that military-style weapons are not available to civilians," she said.

Yeah, thanks you stunned oval office. How about lobbying for a CCW so someone could actually stop a nut job that is bound and determined to cause mayhem with any weapon available?
Yeah, fat chance.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


DrakeriderCa posted:

You'll never take away my military-style rifle!

Their logic is so hosed up, they can't hide a total ban agenda if they tried.

All Military Style Guns are banned. Our mission is complete!
YAY!
Hey, mah bolt action hunting rifle here is far more powerful than pretty much any military rifle.
BAN THE SNIPER RIFLE!
YAY!

Oh poo poo, I almost have a tear in my eye:
New poll put tories in the lead

This part:

quote:

Harper vs. Dion: leadership

The poll asked potential voters about several leadership qualities, and how they applied to Harper and Dion. Across Canada, most respondents preferred Harper.

The results suggest Dion has had a difficult time convincing Canadians he would be an effective prime minister:

Who would be better when it comes to...

Being prime minister of a majority government:

* Harper: 46 per cent
* Dion: 22 per cent

Being easygoing and likeable:

* Harper: 38 per cent
* Dion: 29 per cent

Standing up to the United States:

* Harper: 42 per cent
* Dion: 29 per cent

Caring about people like me:

* Harper: 30 per cent
* Dion: 28 per cent

I'm actually shocked. In a good way.

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slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


FullMetalJacket posted:

don't trade the devil that you have for the one you don't know, i guess.
Well, I'll tell you one thing. Assuming Obama gets in and he carries through with his promise of renegotiating NAFTA, I'd feel more comfortable with Harper in the PM chair than Dion.

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