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Mecha
Dec 20, 2003

「チェンジ ゲッタ-1! スイッチ オン!」


Is there any advantage to running FreeBSD off a USB stick with the rest of the drives being the ZFS pools? Friend came through again with selling off a startup workstation: Supermicro X10SRM-F board and Xeon v4 in a cheap Lian-Li case, and it's already got a USB socket on one of the mobo headers.

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Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!



Mecha posted:

Is there any advantage to running FreeBSD off a USB stick with the rest of the drives being the ZFS pools? Friend came through again with selling off a startup workstation: Supermicro X10SRM-F board and Xeon v4 in a cheap Lian-Li case, and it's already got a USB socket on one of the mobo headers.

That used to be the recommended method of running FreeNAS. For my latest install I used a SSD, though, since I worried about general lifespan of flash drives.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Mecha posted:

Is there any advantage to running FreeBSD off a USB stick with the rest of the drives being the ZFS pools? Friend came through again with selling off a startup workstation: Supermicro X10SRM-F board and Xeon v4 in a cheap Lian-Li case, and it's already got a USB socket on one of the mobo headers.

The only real advantage is not using up a SATA port. That's it. And you're accepting a higher probability of OS drive failure than using a HDD/SSD as a tradeoff (though you could do mirrored USB drives to mitigate that), and most likely slower boot times, if you care about that.

FWIW, USB sticks are no longer recommended for FreeNAS, though they don't really give a whole lot of background as to why.

BurgerQuest
Mar 17, 2009



I've always assumed for flash memory like USB and SD-Cards, it's generally reliable enough for home use if the OS isn't doing a lot of writes to it all day long. On the other hand a 120Gbyte SSD is like $39AUD these days so...

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004





BurgerQuest posted:

On the other hand a 120Gbyte SSD is like $39AUD these days so...

I picked up a bunch of 16GB SSD for $5 each a couple years ago. Supposedly early SSDs were unreliable but they're still kicking around.

Too bad you can't boot from S3 yet. Just store the access keys and S3:url in the BIOS and boom. Might be a little slow to recover from a power outage longer than your UPS can handle, but yeah

Duck and Cover
Apr 6, 2007


Hadlock posted:

I picked up a bunch of 16GB SSD for $5 each a couple years ago. Supposedly early SSDs were unreliable but they're still kicking around.

Too bad you can't boot from S3 yet. Just store the access keys and S3:url in the BIOS and boom. Might be a little slow to recover from a power outage longer than your UPS can handle, but yeah

16tb that sounds... oh 16gb that makes more sense.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004





I'll throw up an SA mart page and you can buy them all from me for $15 each

BurgerQuest
Mar 17, 2009



Hadlock posted:

Too bad you can't boot from S3 yet. Just store the access keys and S3:url in the BIOS and boom. Might be a little slow to recover from a power outage longer than your UPS can handle, but yeah

I can totally see this being a thing, but my server mostly serves my home... so if the power goes out and comes back, but the internet is still out, I'd like it to boot :s

wolrah
May 8, 2006
what?


Hadlock posted:

Too bad you can't boot from S3 yet. Just store the access keys and S3:url in the BIOS and boom. Might be a little slow to recover from a power outage longer than your UPS can handle, but yeah
You could definitely do this with iPXE. You can flash it directly to a NIC's boot ROM with a HTTPS URL to pull a config file from and go from there.

If you're interested in that sort of thing, you can install it to a USB drive and boot from there as an experiment before committing to warranty voiding.

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

urf. urg. mmph. i'm a stupid blind guy with no legs. urrrg. hurble. i'm homeless. gblgblbgblgblgble

iPXE can also run from your router so no need for the internet per se. config updates would be a PITA.

Edit: as in you can pretty trivially enable it and host the files you need on your router. Besides usb itís pretty common to bootstrap iPXE from PXE using dnsmasq, which has a built in tftp server. Itís non invasive and itís something Iíve done in openwrt and edgerouters.

freeasinbeer fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jul 1, 2020

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

Mecha posted:

Is there any advantage to running FreeBSD off a USB stick with the rest of the drives being the ZFS pools? Friend came through again with selling off a startup workstation: Supermicro X10SRM-F board and Xeon v4 in a cheap Lian-Li case, and it's already got a USB socket on one of the mobo headers.

Another option is the M.2 slot on your motherboard, based on the manual it sounds like NVMe drive won't disable a SATA port. Intel Optane 16GB sticks are quite cheap.

Wild EEPROM
Jul 29, 2011


oh, my, god. Becky, look at her bitrate.


Speed of the drive doesnt matter do just buy a sata usb enclosure and go to town

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



Rexxed posted:

That used to be the recommended method of running FreeNAS. For my latest install I used a SSD, though, since I worried about general lifespan of flash drives.
Ever since m0n0wall, a FreeBSD firewall appliance from way back in the day, the way it's worked is that the OS is loaded into memory from the disk it's booted from, and only once you press 'Save' in the UI somewhere, does it actually write anything to the flash media.
So unless you do an obscene amount of saving, or get the absolutely lowest tier of flash that probably shouldn't have passed binning, it shouldn't really be an issue.

There is one caveat to this, which comes up in responding to this:

DrDork posted:

FWIW, USB sticks are no longer recommended for FreeNAS, though they don't really give a whole lot of background as to why.
This is a complete guess, but I would summize that the reason they've stopped recommending USB drives is because most people didn't switch the log and graph data generated by FreeNAS to go to the storage pool, but instead left it the default which means it'd be written to the USB stick. I don't know why iX configured it that way, originally, because it kind of defeated the whole point of an appliance OS that boots from USB/CF/floppy media.

Hadlock posted:

I picked up a bunch of 16GB SSD for $5 each a couple years ago. Supposedly early SSDs were unreliable but they're still kicking around.

Too bad you can't boot from S3 yet. Just store the access keys and S3:url in the BIOS and boom. Might be a little slow to recover from a power outage longer than your UPS can handle, but yeah
HTTP Boot is in UEFI as of v2.5 (newest version is v2.8), so it really shouldn't be that far off.

freeasinbeer posted:

iPXE can also run from your router so no need for the internet per se. config updates would be a PITA.

Edit: as in you can pretty trivially enable it and host the files you need on your router. Besides usb itís pretty common to bootstrap iPXE from PXE using dnsmasq, which has a built in tftp server. Itís non invasive and itís something Iíve done in openwrt and edgerouters.
iPXE is x86-only, though. Netbooting via TFTP, HTTPS or something else to a NFS-with-TLSv1.3 encryption mounted filesystem is much better, and cross-platform (well, as soon as it gets standardized, but it's being implemented in FreeBSD already).
iPXE, properly configured, also needs DHCP Option 67 - and those usually aren't available on most CPE.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


A USB to sata cable also could let you trivially hook up a cheap ssd inside whatever case you have. Then just 3m command strip or velcro it in place. Or don't it doesn't matter.

Steakandchips
Apr 30, 2009



Rexxed posted:

Yeah there's this stupid chart now (I mean it's good, only stupid because they got caught sneaking SMR in and sowing mistrust):
https://blog.westerndigital.com/wd-red-nas-drives/


I just just shucked a WD Elements 8tb and it was a white label "EMAZ".



Definitely CMR, yes?

Steakandchips fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jul 1, 2020

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




As someone who has to routinely deal with flash drives as boot devices failing (though this is ESXi) yeah, don't if you don't ABSOLUTELY have to.

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!



Steakandchips posted:

I just just shucked a WD Elements 8tb and it was a white label "EMAZ".



Definitely CMR, yes?

According to WD there's no 8TB SMR disks, so unless they're lying again, yes.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


Crunchy Black posted:

As someone who has to routinely deal with flash drives as boot devices failing (though this is ESXi) yeah, don't if you don't ABSOLUTELY have to.

Mirrored SD cards for esxi boot is pretty standard and works fine. ESXi doesn't even crash if it loses its boot drive

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

If Godzilla can do it, you know I can deliver!

Pillbug

HalloKitty posted:

Mirrored SD cards for esxi boot is pretty standard and works fine. ESXi doesn't even crash if it loses its boot drive



The way of the future.

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Waiting for his chance

That's actually what I hate about the little bastards. They don't have built-in diagnostics. the internal controllers on the hosts don't have any way of seeing their status, and they never get used, until you go to reboot a host. Then it won't boot because at some unknown time in the last few hundred days, both cards hosed off.

Last time I looked, it was like an extra $400 on a $30k host to boot from dual SSDs with an internal RAID controller, and I'll cheerfully pay that for peace of mind.

Takes No Damage
Nov 20, 2004

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.




Grimey Drawer

I think FreeNAS killed 3 or 4 different USB sticks before I finally put it on a high-endurance SD card in an adapter, where it's been holding steady for several months now. I still don't know if it was just flakey ports on my motherboard or if something else was damaging the data on

D. Ebdrup posted:

This is a complete guess, but I would summize that the reason they've stopped recommending USB drives is because most people didn't switch the log and graph data generated by FreeNAS to go to the storage pool, but instead left it the default which means it'd be written to the USB stick.

........gently caress.

Well, I will say that one thing that does seem to work pretty well when using a boot USB is the recovery procedure. Throw a fresh FreeNAS onto another stick, boot into the web UI, apply the backup file you definitely take regularly and store in a safe place for just such an occasion. I'd say it was worth it to burn through $4 USB sticks rather than whatever the cheapest SSD is, but if an SSD never breaks in the first place then I suppose it's moot.

Here's something unexpected: As I continue to gather up 8TB drives for my new pool, I just noticed that the one I got today had an extra attribute in its smartctl output just called 'unknown attribute'. Reading around a bit and updating my drivedb.h file revealed that it was a Helium Level reading, which none of the other 5 drive I have show. What do y'all think that means? Is that actually supposed to do something or is it just handwavey bullshit like putting nitrogen in my tires? I haven't actually opened any of them up yet, I wonder if this one is a 'real' Red and the rest are going to be white labels...

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Helium in drives is A Real Thing and has been around for a while. According to Backblaze's blog it results in a 20% reduction in drag on the platters, so lower power consumption. I could have sworn some manufacturers were claiming it let them get the heads even closer to the disk surface.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Zorak of Michigan posted:

Last time I looked, it was like an extra $400 on a $30k host to boot from dual SSDs with an internal RAID controller, and I'll cheerfully pay that for peace of mind.

And for home users a 32GB SSD can be had for as little as $15 off Amazon. USB drives made sense for a long time when SSDs were expensive, or where you don't have any additional SATA ports / space in your case for yet another 3.5" spinner, but in today's market a cheap SSD is a much better option in most cases. Except you may not have a pile of spare 32GB SSD's sitting in a drawer like most of us probably do USB sticks.

Takes No Damage posted:

What do y'all think that means? Is that actually supposed to do something or is it just handwavey bullshit like putting nitrogen in my tires? I haven't actually opened any of them up yet, I wonder if this one is a 'real' Red and the rest are going to be white labels...

Yeah, as said above, helium-filled drives have been A Thing for a while now. They used to be the province of only the highest-end drives, but like everything else, it's trickled down the stack slowly. And, much like nitrogen in tires, while it's not a game-changing difference, it does have measurable positive impacts on things and isn't just handwavey bullshit.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



I still have gear that runs off CF cards purchased a decade ago, and which receive regular writes, but I'm pretty sure even that's a bit long in the tooth as far as write endurance goes, so I've got a strategy ready for when that inevitably fails.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

If Godzilla can do it, you know I can deliver!

Pillbug

I'm running my FreeNAS off of SATA DOMs, you can get them super cheap off eBay and they are fairly reliable.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

Ran different USB drives for ESXi and for FreeNAS and they just plain stopped working outright one day and I didn't really have a problem besides the annoyance of having to reflash a new USB drive while my wife was annoyed that she couldn't watch random-rear end movies again for the evening. But WAF is an important SLA that does matter if you ask me for home storage.

One can always try running a SATADOM for a boot drive as well. <- e;fb

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004





wolrah posted:

You could definitely do this with iPXE. You can flash it directly to a NIC's boot ROM with a HTTPS URL to pull a config file from and go from there.

If you're interested in that sort of thing, you can install it to a USB drive and boot from there as an experiment before committing to warranty voiding.

This is super cool, I did not know this was an option, thanks

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Do we have any opinion on QNAP? I'm looking at their 2020 product stack and edging towards them over Synology.

rufius
Feb 27, 2011

Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.


SwissArmyDruid posted:

Do we have any opinion on QNAP? I'm looking at their 2020 product stack and edging towards them over Synology.

I really like my little TVS-471. I would definitely buy another QNAP. Had bad exp with Synology previously so Iím wary to try them again.

If i strayed from QNAP, itíd be to a FreeNAS device.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


Takes No Damage posted:

I think FreeNAS killed 3 or 4 different USB sticks before I finally put it on a high-endurance SD card in an adapter, where it's been holding steady for several months now. I still don't know if it was just flakey ports on my motherboard or if something else was damaging the data on


........gently caress.

Well, I will say that one thing that does seem to work pretty well when using a boot USB is the recovery procedure. Throw a fresh FreeNAS onto another stick, boot into the web UI, apply the backup file you definitely take regularly and store in a safe place for just such an occasion. I'd say it was worth it to burn through $4 USB sticks rather than whatever the cheapest SSD is, but if an SSD never breaks in the first place then I suppose it's moot.

Here's something unexpected: As I continue to gather up 8TB drives for my new pool, I just noticed that the one I got today had an extra attribute in its smartctl output just called 'unknown attribute'. Reading around a bit and updating my drivedb.h file revealed that it was a Helium Level reading, which none of the other 5 drive I have show. What do y'all think that means? Is that actually supposed to do something or is it just handwavey bullshit like putting nitrogen in my tires? I haven't actually opened any of them up yet, I wonder if this one is a 'real' Red and the rest are going to be white labels...

Helium filled drives have been around for a while, to help with drag/platter density. Don't ever open a helium filled drive. It's definitely not unneccessary engineering, and can reduce temps too. Helium filled drives are overall pretty great, although I imagine data recovery would be even more of a bitch

Sniep
Mar 28, 2004

All I needed was that fatty blunt...



King of Breakfast


Fun Shoe

HalloKitty posted:

, although I imagine data recovery would be even more of a bitch

OK Wilber, Break's up, It's time to go back in the chamber

*squeaks* Yes Sir *squeaks*

lordfrikk
Mar 11, 2010

casual lamer


I had bad experience setting up OMV on an USB stick, maybe the ones I have are just poo poo but it took forever to install and then after 3 days I rebooted the server and the stick just stopped appearing in the system altogether. At that point I thought gently caress it and put an extra NVMe stick in there, been running without a problem since and can use it for Docker and VMs, too.

wolrah
May 8, 2006
what?


rufius posted:

I really like my little TVS-471. I would definitely buy another QNAP. Had bad exp with Synology previously so Iím wary to try them again.

If i strayed from QNAP, itíd be to a FreeNAS device.
Pretty much exactly my experience too, we deploy TS-453s as backup storage for our customers and have no complaints.

Thwomp
Apr 9, 2003

BA-DUHHH



Grimey Drawer

I've got a little 2-bay QNAP that works well for my home use. Pretty nice little appliance NAS.


You'll find more support/community around Synology than QNAP but I've still been able to get what I need for it.

Heners_UK
Jun 1, 2002


I've got a full sized metal cased AData UV131 USB drive in the internal USB port of my TS430 running Unraid and it's been solid for 2 years so far. The drive wasn't even new when I started using it for this and isn't especially high endurance (data wise at least).

EssOEss
Oct 23, 2006
128-bit approved

EssOEss posted:

1 day after I install Windows version 2004, Microsoft publishes a notice that Storage Spaces is bugged now and RIP your data.

Only found 5 files filled with zeroes on my storage (how many partially zeroed, though?). If you use Storage Spaces, watch out!

The issue seems to be that writes made to parity spaces do not make it from cache to long term storage - only blocks full of zeroes.

It gets better. They just released a "troubleshooter" wizard that's supposed to fix it. All it does is BSOD my PC. Glad I had backups!

And here I was thinking all those "Oh I never install Windows Updates anymore" people were cranks...

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



rufius posted:

I really like my little TVS-471. I would definitely buy another QNAP. Had bad exp with Synology previously so Iím wary to try them again.

If i strayed from QNAP, itíd be to a FreeNAS device.

Also QNAP seem to be the only ones pushing 2.5/5 gigabit interfaces on their NASes, or have the provisions to upgrade with the built-in PCIe slot, which appeals to my sense of futureproofing.

Which makes it all the more bizarre to me the other NAS oems aren't doing the same, considering that the extra cost over gigabit is like... a banana.

SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jul 2, 2020

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

SwissArmyDruid posted:

Also QNAP seem to be the only ones pushing 2.5/5 gigabit interfaces on their NASes, or have the provisions to upgrade with the built-in PCIe slot, which appeals to my sense of futureproofing.

Which makes it all the more bizarre to me the other NAS oems aren't doing the same, considering that the extra cost over gigabit is like... a banana.

Yeah, but that's a banana they could keep, and a feature they can hold off on implementing now so that when it's actually useful they can use it as a carrot to get you to upgrade to a newer / higher end model. And for most home users, 1GbE is more than enough anyhow.

And I think that's the real issue: it's just not useful right now. There are only a handful of routers / switches with >1GbE ports on them, and they're all stupid expensive for what they are (the Netgear AX6000 is loving $470 and has only 1 2.5/5GbE port. The 5-port XS505M is $350. And so on). If you're a home user, that's probably too expensive to bother with, especially when 10Gb fiber is faster and cheaper. If you're a business user, legit 10GbE isn't much more expensive, and obviously is considerably faster.

2.5/5Gig Ethernet just occupies a pretty poor price:performance spot right now. It needs to get a lot cheaper before most OEMs are really going to bother adding it into anything more than their most expensive products.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



EssOEss posted:

It gets better. They just released a "troubleshooter" wizard that's supposed to fix it. All it does is BSOD my PC. Glad I had backups!

And here I was thinking all those "Oh I never install Windows Updates anymore" people were cranks...
You're not the first person I've heard this BSOD issue from, either.
I take it you're trying to get your data off, so you can move to.. well, anything else?

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EssOEss
Oct 23, 2006
128-bit approved

I am considering it but don't really see many obvious options. For Windows there is DrivePool but that's some 1-man labor of love that I would not trust more than Storage Spaces. Everything else seems non-Windows and I kind of need to have Windows on this machine. Right now I think I will just keep on trucking with Storage Spaces. Or have I missed a Windows-compatible option I should consider?

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