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Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Ziploc posted:

No one has mentioned TrueNAS in the last like 10 pages. And it's just started hitting my news feeds with regards to it being the future of FreeNAS. But no thoughts here?

it's just a rebranding iirc, it's not like it's a change of project management

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abelwingnut
Dec 23, 2002



ok, so an update to my nas adventure.

i ended up upgrading everything--new nas and new drives. the old drive could only read 4gb of each drive, and i was pretty determined to get more. so, now i have a ds920 and 4 6gb drives.

so that's all fine and well. but now, i want to swap them out as simply as possible. i want the new nas to take on the same name and location and ip and folder structure and all that so that my links across my network don't break. obviously the data would need to come over as well.

how best do i do this? my best guess as of now is to setup the new nas via usb on my laptop while i keep my old nas connected to the network. i could name it the same and set the static ip. i could then create the basic folder structure with the right permissions, then copy and paste everything over. then i'd disconnect the existing nas and simply swap them out.

is that the easiest way?

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Paul MaudDib posted:

it's just a rebranding iirc, it's not like it's a change of project management

It's a bit more than that. TrueNAS and FreeNAS right now have separate development pipelines and aren't using 100% of the same code, and were being handled by at least somewhat separate teams internally. That's all being rolled in to one unified package build now, with TrueNAS Enterprise (paid) effectively adding additional features and such on top of TrueNAS Core (free), instead of being developed as a separate product that just happened to share a lot of the code base. So in that sense, I would expect there to be a bunch of project management shakeup within iXSystems as the teams are merged.

There's some concern in the community that this unification will make it easier for iXSystems to curtail the feature set of the free edition to push people to the paid edition, especially since they've explicitly said they're investigating how to make it so you can upgrade from Core to Enterprise without needing to reinstall. What info they've released about v12.0 doesn't make it seem like that's the direction they're taking, but some people are still worried about the future of it.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



DrDork posted:

It's a bit more than that. TrueNAS and FreeNAS right now have separate development pipelines and aren't using 100% of the same code, and were being handled by at least somewhat separate teams internally. That's all being rolled in to one unified package build now, with TrueNAS Enterprise (paid) effectively adding additional features and such on top of TrueNAS Core (free), instead of being developed as a separate product that just happened to share a lot of the code base. So in that sense, I would expect there to be a bunch of project management shakeup within iXSystems as the teams are merged.

There's some concern in the community that this unification will make it easier for iXSystems to curtail the feature set of the free edition to push people to the paid edition, especially since they've explicitly said they're investigating how to make it so you can upgrade from Core to Enterprise without needing to reinstall. What info they've released about v12.0 doesn't make it seem like that's the direction they're taking, but some people are still worried about the future of it.
I really don't see how they can differentiate on features given that basically all of the actual functionality comes from FreeBSD or its ports, especially considering they've got a pretty long history of upstreaming stuff to FreeBSD - so I don't think they're just going to stop doing that and make the enterprise version into something non-opensource (although it's allowed for by the BSD license).
Even all of the the code to build the actual middleware, webui, and everything else can be found on their github.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's very likely, either. But there are always some people who assume every move is the harbinger of the end of free software and evidence that whoever's developing it intends to neuter it / go closed source / whatever.

Personally I think it'll be fine and we'll just need to get used to seeing a new (inferior, IMO) ASCII splash on boot.

Ziploc
Sep 19, 2006
MX-5

The only thing I'm wondering now is what the migration strategy is gonna be like. And when I should be looking into doing it.I suspect probably not for a while.

Is TrueNAS still supposed to be run from USB?

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

From the sound of it the migration strategy is intended to be a straight upgrade, same as any other major release they've done in the past. I'm sure it'll have a few bugs that'll mean that a lot of us will want to wait for 12.1 or whatnot, but they don't sound like they're driving towards a situation where 11.x will be dead-ended like 10.x (Coral) was and to get to 12.x you'll need to entirely reinstall.

FreeNAS itself says they don't recommend running from a USB anymore, but they don't really give a good reason why. Speculation is it's because FreeNAS by default keeps system log files on the boot partition, and doing a whole bunch of small writes for months on end is Not Great for the poo poo-tier flash chips you'll find in a USB drive. Move that logging elsewhere and I don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't use a USB, though.

Buff Hardback
Jun 11, 2019


Henrik Zetterberg posted:

That went right over my head. Are these env variables or something?


H110Hawk posted:

Commands run on the CLI. It's OK to ignore it, but maybe google "unraid sysctl dev.raid.speed_limit_max" if you're curious. Synology exposes this in the GUI.

No need to worry about it. There's a reason why Unraid is called Unraid. (there's no raid involved)

Since it's just JBOD with a custom filesystem to handle file to drive allocation, rebuilds are also handled via this custom filesystem.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Bought another 10TB easystore for $179. It's a Sep-2019 manufactured EMAZ drive.

My oldest drives claim 43,000 power on time.

Right now looking at 36 hours, assuming I don't abuse it in the interim:

md4 : active raid5 sdf6[2] sdd6[0] sdh6[1]
4883654528 blocks super 1.2 level 5, 64k chunk, algorithm 2 [3/3] [UUU]
[>....................] reshape = 1.7% (83263296/4883654528) finish=2184.9min speed=36616K/sec

H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jul 24, 2020

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

If Godzilla can do it, you know I can deliver!

Pillbug

Added a second satadom to make the freenas boot disk redundant in my R720, replaced the storage controller with an LSI setup for JBOD, however it doesn't seem to recognize the SATA disks in my HP D2700 array. It recognizes all the SAS disks fine

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!



Super quick and easy one I hope - can some USB C cables be garbage for data transfer speeds? Changed machine to one that has more thunderbolt ports than USB so makes sense to go usb c->thunderbolt for my DAS rather than regular rear end USB type A I was previously.

Found a cable that I came into possession somehow, but the speed is garbage. Like 30MB/sec even on the SSD drive. Only marking on the cable itself is that it supports Power Delivery. So maybe a cable only designed for charging and crap for speed

E: ah yes found a similar cable on amazon that looks like itís only specíd to USB 2.0, so back to the original cable until I need to move off it.

EL BROMANCE fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jul 24, 2020

EVIL Gibson
Mar 23, 2001

Internet of Things is just someone else's computer that people can't help attaching cameras and door locks to!


Switchblade Switcharoo

DrDork posted:



FreeNAS itself says they don't recommend running from a USB anymore, but they don't really give a good reason why. Speculation is it's because FreeNAS by default keeps system log files on the boot partition, and doing a whole bunch of small writes for months on end is Not Great for the poo poo-tier flash chips you'll find in a USB drive. Move that logging elsewhere and I don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't use a USB, though.

Please. Don't use USB. A usb flash drive doesn't have SMART info that let you know it is beginning to die. There are a few but they are weird

EVIL Gibson fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Jul 24, 2020

Charles
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom


Toilet Rascal

EL BROMANCE posted:

Super quick and easy one I hope - can some USB C cables be garbage for data transfer speeds? Changed machine to one that has more thunderbolt ports than USB so makes sense to go usb c->thunderbolt for my DAS rather than regular rear end USB type A I was previously.

Found a cable that I came into possession somehow, but the speed is garbage. Like 30MB/sec even on the SSD drive. Only marking on the cable itself is that it supports Power Delivery. So maybe a cable only designed for charging and crap for speed

E: ah yes found a similar cable on amazon that looks like itís only specíd to USB 2.0, so back to the original cable until I need to move off it.

I think the USB 2 cables have less connectors

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!



Charles posted:

I think the USB 2 cables have less connectors

Cheap bastards! Seems most of the ones I see on Amazon are like that. Luckily Iím in no rush, Iíll grab one further down the line when I can be bothered to look properly. My speeds are back and Iím happy enough with running everything else off a powered hub.

Charles
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom


Toilet Rascal

EL BROMANCE posted:

Cheap bastards! Seems most of the ones I see on Amazon are like that. Luckily Iím in no rush, Iíll grab one further down the line when I can be bothered to look properly. My speeds are back and Iím happy enough with running everything else off a powered hub.

It's really easy to tell if one end is a Type-A, because the contacts are easy to see, but yeah, I was annoyed when I realized most of my cables are USB 2.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



EVIL Gibson posted:

Please. Don't use USB. A usb flash drive doesn't have SMART info that let you know it is beginning to die. There are a few but they are weird
Most USB devices with SATA connectors implements PATA rather than SATA, which is why they appear as /dev/da%d rather than /dev/ada%d in FreeBSD, and also explains why no S.M.A.R.T data is available despite the fact that the disks support it.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.





Nap Ghost

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

Theoretically how big could it get?

https://hbfs.wordpress.com/2009/02/...oil-the-oceans/

quote:

Although weíd all like Mooreís Law to continue forever, quantum mechanics imposes some fundamental limits on the computation rate and information capacity of any physical device. In particular, it has been shown that 1 kilogram of matter confined to 1 litre of space can perform at most 1051 operations per second on at most 1031 bits of information.

A fully populated 128-bit storage pool would contain 2128 blocks = 2137 bytes = 2140 bits; therefore the minimum mass required to hold the bits would be (2140 bits) / (1031 bits/kg) = 136 billion kg. [Ö] To operate at the 1031 bits/kg limit, however, the entire mass of the computer must be in the form of pure energy.

By E=mc2, the rest energy of 136 billion kg is 1.2◊1028 J.

The mass of the oceans is about 1.4◊1021 kg.

It takes about 4,000 J to raise the temperature of 1 kg of water by 1 degree Celsius, and thus about 400,000 J to heat 1 kg of water from freezing to boiling. The latent heat of vaporization adds another 2 million J/kg. Thus the energy required to boil the oceans is about 2.4◊106 J/kg * 1.4◊1021 kg = 3.4◊1027 J.

Thus, fully populating a 128-bit storage pool would, literally, require more energy than boiling the oceans.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

For every Zpool you create you warm the oceans, you heard it here

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

Axe-man posted:

For every Zpool you create you warm the oceans, you heard it here

For every action you take (or don't), you heat the oceans.

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof




HAHAHA HOLY poo poo THEY'RE BRAND NEW DRIVES!*
or at least re-sealed used drives (which I doubt.) I'll find out soon though.

Seller has since updated the listing and tacked on another $25/drive. Shoulda bought 8

EVIL Gibson
Mar 23, 2001

Internet of Things is just someone else's computer that people can't help attaching cameras and door locks to!


Switchblade Switcharoo

D. Ebdrup posted:

Most USB devices with SATA connectors implements PATA rather than SATA, which is why they appear as /dev/da%d rather than /dev/ada%d in FreeBSD, and also explains why no S.M.A.R.T data is available despite the fact that the disks support it.

He talked about using a usb stick.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


GnarlyCharlie4u posted:



HAHAHA HOLY poo poo THEY'RE BRAND NEW DRIVES!*
or at least re-sealed used drives (which I doubt.) I'll find out soon though.

Seller has since updated the listing and tacked on another $25/drive. Shoulda bought 8

I mean, they could actually be "refurbished" drives in the sense that someone looked them over and resealed them.

What do the drive hours say in SMART (bearing in mind that if they show 0, that isn't necessarily definitive, since supposedly there are ways to reset SMART)?

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


Paul MaudDib posted:

I mean, they could actually be "refurbished" drives in the sense that someone looked them over and resealed them.

What do the drive hours say in SMART (bearing in mind that if they show 0, that isn't necessarily definitive, since supposedly there are ways to reset SMART)?

That's what I meant by "I'll find out soon though"
I'll post when I have a chance to install and check them.

forbidden dialectics
Jul 26, 2005







EVIL Gibson posted:

Please. Don't use USB. A usb flash drive doesn't have SMART info that let you know it is beginning to die. There are a few but they are weird

I never understood this recommendation. They were making it well, well after you could get 256 GB SSDs for like $50.

Takes No Damage
Nov 20, 2004

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.




Grimey Drawer

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Once I slapped electrical tape over pins 1-3, the Elements drive booted just fine. Cool.

Doing a parity copy and it's at 25% after running all night. Haha, gently caress.

What are you plugging your drives into? Just SATA cables straight to the mobo or are you going through a HBA? My goal this weekend is to get my own WB Elements shucked and installed, but they'll all be going through an LSI 9211 and I think I remember reading somewhere that it didn't even look at the 3rd pin but now I can't find it again.

On the subject of 9211's, is it normal for it to stop reporting a type after a firmware flash if you don't bother to reinstall a BIOS to the card? When I first booted into it I saw that it was on firmware version 18.00.00.00 in IR mode. I wiped the memory and loaded up firmware 20.00.70.00 from the IT version of the file, and while I do now see that as the firmware version it doesn't display any of the other info from before. I ~assume~ that's because it doesn't have a BIOS anymore and is just a dumb card that will pass all the HD data straight through SAS <-> SATA, which I believe is what ZFS wants?

DrDork posted:

FreeNAS itself says they don't recommend running from a USB anymore, but they don't really give a good reason why. Speculation is it's because FreeNAS by default keeps system log files on the boot partition, and doing a whole bunch of small writes for months on end is Not Great for the poo poo-tier flash chips you'll find in a USB drive. Move that logging elsewhere and I don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't use a USB, though.

I looked into this the last time it came up but I couldn't find where that setting lives, either poking around in the GUI or reading through the docs. Would you happen to know offhand where that path is set?

Takes No Damage fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jul 25, 2020

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

If you don't load BIOS/bootrom, it won't show up after POST. That's what you want for FreeNAS, although it won't change if you did load the BIOS. IT mode passes everything through.

And stick your FreeNAS install on a 64GB SSD or something. They've gotten so cheap there's little reason not to. I finally did that this year, AData SSDs were like $50 for a 128GB drive.

sharkytm fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Jul 25, 2020

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Takes No Damage posted:

I looked into this the last time it came up but I couldn't find where that setting lives, either poking around in the GUI or reading through the docs. Would you happen to know offhand where that path is set?

In the GUI for 11.x it's under System -> System Dataset. Gives you a dropdown for where you want it to live, or if you uncheck the tick box it dumps them into /var/ "on the operating system device", wherever it decides that is.

sharkytm posted:

And stick your FreeNAS install on a 64GB SSD or something. They've gotten so cheap there's little reason not to. I finally did that this year, AData SSDs were like $50 for a 128GB drive.

Less. You can get SSD's for <$25 now. I mean, they suck, but they're probably still faster than a USB drive and more reliable. The only place I could see still using a USB would be if you simply don't have the SATA ports to spare, in which case at least do a RAID 0 using two of them so when one inevitably fails you're not caught unprepared.

DrDork fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jul 25, 2020

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



EVIL Gibson posted:

He talked about using a usb stick.
Yea, I wrote the wrong thing. What I meant was "Most USB devices including ones with SATA connectors implement PATA"
orz

sharkytm posted:

If you don't load BIOS/bootrom, it won't show up after POST. That's what you want for FreeNAS, although it won't change if you did load the BIOS. IT mode passes everything through.

And stick your FreeNAS install on a 64GB SSD or something. They've gotten so cheap there's little reason not to. I finally did that this year, AData SSDs were like $50 for a 128GB drive.
Hell, a SATADOM or two is perfectly fine.

Dead Goon
Dec 13, 2002


DrDork posted:

In the GUI for 11.x it's under System -> System Dataset. Gives you a dropdown for where you want it to live, or if you uncheck the tick box it dumps them into /var/ "on the operating system device", wherever it decides that is.


Less. You can get SSD's for <$25 now. I mean, they suck, but they're probably still faster than a USB drive and more reliable. The only place I could see still using a USB would be if you simply don't have the SATA ports to spare, in which case at least do a RAID 0 using two of them so when one inevitably fails you're not caught unprepared.

How would RAID 0 prepare you for one of them failing?

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


Dead Goon posted:

How would RAID 0 prepare you for one of them failing?

I'm guessing he means RAID 1, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Dead Goon posted:

How would RAID 0 prepare you for one of them failing?

RAID 1*

That's what I get for posting when I should be sleeping. Again.

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007




Takes No Damage posted:

What are you plugging your drives into? Just SATA cables straight to the mobo or are you going through a HBA? My goal this weekend is to get my own WB Elements shucked and installed, but they'll all be going through an LSI 9211 and I think I remember reading somewhere that it didn't even look at the 3rd pin but now I can't find it again.

Yup, SATA right into the board.

Buff Hardback
Jun 11, 2019


Takes No Damage posted:

What are you plugging your drives into? Just SATA cables straight to the mobo or are you going through a HBA? My goal this weekend is to get my own WB Elements shucked and installed, but they'll all be going through an LSI 9211 and I think I remember reading somewhere that it didn't even look at the 3rd pin but now I can't find it again.

On the subject of 9211's, is it normal for it to stop reporting a type after a firmware flash if you don't bother to reinstall a BIOS to the card? When I first booted into it I saw that it was on firmware version 18.00.00.00 in IR mode. I wiped the memory and loaded up firmware 20.00.70.00 from the IT version of the file, and while I do now see that as the firmware version it doesn't display any of the other info from before. I ~assume~ that's because it doesn't have a BIOS anymore and is just a dumb card that will pass all the HD data straight through SAS <-> SATA, which I believe is what ZFS wants?


I looked into this the last time it came up but I couldn't find where that setting lives, either poking around in the GUI or reading through the docs. Would you happen to know offhand where that path is set?

3.3v on power is the issue, not data. It doesn't matter what you plug the data cables into, the connection from the PSU to the drives is what you have to be concerned about.

Henrik Zetterberg
Dec 7, 2007




Whoaaa, unraid emulates the contents of a missing disk. I havenít upgraded disks in probably 4-5 years and I donít remember this being a thing. I thought during the pre-clearing of a disk, you either had to have your array stopped, or the contents of the missing disk would be... missing while the script was running.

Super cool that I can be pre-clearing the disk while still being able to access the contents of the drive Iím replacing just by doing that parity calculation of it. Yeah, Iím vulnerable to losing data if a disk fails while Iím pre-clearing, but this is pretty cool that I donít have to go without missing data while the new drive is being prepped.

Now to wait a week while I pre-clear a 12TB drive on an Atom CPU

Buff Hardback
Jun 11, 2019


Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Whoaaa, unraid emulates the contents of a missing disk. I havenít upgraded disks in probably 4-5 years and I donít remember this being a thing. I thought during the pre-clearing of a disk, you either had to have your array stopped, or the contents of the missing disk would be... missing while the script was running.

Super cool that I can be pre-clearing the disk while still being able to access the contents of the drive Iím replacing just by doing that parity calculation of it. Yeah, Iím vulnerable to losing data if a disk fails while Iím pre-clearing, but this is pretty cool that I donít have to go without missing data while the new drive is being prepped.

Now to wait a week while I pre-clear a 12TB drive on an Atom CPU

Okay wait, pre-clearing is only a thing because Unraid used to not be able to clear a disk prior to adding it to the array without stopping the array, so the preclear script would check/empty the disk and then write the special preamble that Unraid uses to recognize the disk had been cleared by Unraid. Now that Unraid can add a disk to the array without stopping it, there's less of a need to yank disks out and worry about data loss.

Takes No Damage
Nov 20, 2004

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.




Grimey Drawer

sharkytm posted:

If you don't load BIOS/bootrom, it won't show up after POST. That's what you want for FreeNAS, although it won't change if you did load the BIOS. IT mode passes everything through.

And stick your FreeNAS install on a 64GB SSD or something. They've gotten so cheap there's little reason not to. I finally did that this year, AData SSDs were like $50 for a 128GB drive.

Ah, got it. However, it looks like there is just a toggle to store it either on the NAS pool itself or on the boot device. I had assumed there would be an option to send it off somewhere else, otherwise if FreeNAS crashes out and I can't access the storage, how would I look at the logs if they weren't on the stick? Is there not a way to pipe it off to a separate PC so I would be able to access it if the NAS was inaccessible?

And after burning through a few actual thumbdrives I got a high endurance SD card and a converter for USB and have been running FreeNAS off of that without issue for 6 months or so. If those can be got even cheaper than SSDs they appear to be a viable alternative.

Buff Hardback posted:

3.3v on power is the issue, not data. It doesn't matter what you plug the data cables into, the connection from the PSU to the drives is what you have to be concerned about.

Yes, that's right, I've either got to cut back on the drinking or stop getting old, I can't remember poo poo these days What I was actually thinking about was reading up on Molex to SATA power cables, and that some people were complaining in the Amazon reviews that the converters I got did NOT provide 3.3v on pin 3 and that was messing something up for them, but for this application it should be what I want.

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


I almost bought another backplane and 4 more drives until I realized that there's only 2 power hookups on the motherboard of this TS440 and I would have to use both of them to run 8 drives.

There is a free 6 pin coming directly from the PSU though but it's only black and yellow wires so that's probably not going to be a good thing to hack an adapter onto in order to plug in my SSD with FreeNAS on it...
Anyone got any clever solutions for this one or am I just stuck with 4 sas drives + OS SSD? I mean I guess I could throw FreeNAS on a thumbdrive or use a dumb USB enclosure but I'd rather avoid that.

Heners_UK
Jun 1, 2002


My ts430 has 6 SATA ports on the mobo that I've used. I thought that carried over to the ts440? Both my 2 backplanes use both my 6pin connectors (limited my choice in graphics cards for VM passthrough).

Not present on yours? Lower right of motherboard?

There's also an internal usb2 port that I use for Unraid on a flash drive (but note the extensive freenas specific debate on that above)

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sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

I almost bought another backplane and 4 more drives until I realized that there's only 2 power hookups on the motherboard of this TS440 and I would have to use both of them to run 8 drives.

There is a free 6 pin coming directly from the PSU though but it's only black and yellow wires so that's probably not going to be a good thing to hack an adapter onto in order to plug in my SSD with FreeNAS on it...
Anyone got any clever solutions for this one or am I just stuck with 4 sas drives + OS SSD? I mean I guess I could throw FreeNAS on a thumbdrive or use a dumb USB enclosure but I'd rather avoid that.

The ts440 required a power conversion board and cables to run the second backplane. They weren't common, and were quite expensive. You could certainly build an adapter/splitter that would connect to the drives, but the backplane needs the power converter to (I think) generate a 5V rail, probably used for some logic and the LEDs.

You could always jerry rig a pair of rails and screw the drives in where the trays should go, and just power them off a bunch of molex->SATA adapters. If you just need one power connector then steal or split the one from the DVD drive.
My 440 has the OS running on a 128gb SATA SSD plugged into the motherboard, 4x HDDs off the motherboard, and 4x HDDs running off the HBA.
My 430 has an identical setup, except all 8 storage drives are on the HBA.

The 440 doesn't have an internal USB port, but the 430 does.

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