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sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

I'll chime in with everything I've learned thusfar.
1: DAS is great, but a good NAS can come close to USB2's actual (not max) throughput with a decent gigabit switch, and good cabling. I've clocked our Terastation Live 2TB (1.4TB available through RAID5) at 35mb/s, which is better than my DAS USB2 ATA100 drive, which tops out at 30. I just transferred a 19GB file in an hour over a 100mbit card, connected to a gigabit network, while the computer was being heavily used. Pretty decent, if you ask me.

Check the charts over at smallnetbuilder. They are a great resource, which is why I asked that it be linked in the megathread. I did a bunch of research, and haven't found a single other site that has a consistent testing methodology.

It should be mentioned that Windows Home Server has some major issues, including data overwriting if a file is opened when something else is copied. It should be used with caution until the bugs are worked out. It also should be noted that its RAID/redundancy capabilities are questionable.

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sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Fallen Rib

er0k posted:

NASLite

I've been meaning to build one of these for myself, do you mind if I bug you about some questions once I start setting mine up?

I'd also considered unRAID, which is free for the basic (3 drive) version, and $70 or $120 for the Plus (6drive)/Pro (16-drive).

unRAID: http://lime-technology.com/

Good people, I've emailed one of their guys a few times. The nice thing is that it boots from a USB drive, and even has user level security for all paid versions.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

8-bit Miniboss posted:

Finally bought a Lenovo TS440. It's the 4 slot one for 300 bucks (plus cost of HD caddies). I figure expansion will come later. I'm just looking to replace my ReadyNAS since that Atom processor is killing me. Deal is on Tiger Direct at the moment.

Same here. Guess I've got to get off my rear end and get back into NAS stuff. The deal was tough to ignore, $322 including shipping, plus 4x caddies. Has anyone posted the part number for the expansion backplane for the additional 4 ports? There are reports of people getting them on eBay, but no one has a part number, not even Lenovo.

:edit: Down the rabbit-hole we go. 16GB of ECC RAM, and 4x5TB drives on a wishlist.

\/\/ Thanks. $99 for the cage and 4 hot-swap caddies isn't bad, the caddies are $15/each. I'm thinking that I'll skip the SAS Card for now, as I'll only need 4 drives, plus the USB boot drive for FreeNAS. I assume there aren't any issues running the Plex module from within FreeNAS, right?

sharkytm fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jul 23, 2015

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

Well, the TS440 arrived at 11AM, and by 4PM was loaded with 20TB of Toshiba drives, and a 16GB USB stick with FreeNAS. I'm currently dumping 6TB of data onto it from my desktop at 100MB/s, which is amazing. That's effectively 800Mb/s on a Gigabit network. 20% overhead is less than I was expecting, especially because the data has to travel down a single ethernet cable to the basement switch/router. It took a lot of reading, but Plex is up and running, with correct storage and user allocation, and I've got a CIFS Share for my desktop backup program. I ran into some issues early on with users/permissions/storage locations, but a couple of botched installs of the Plex plugin later, we're up and running. I've got to learn how the VitrualBox interface works on this thing, and I'll be pretty happy.

It turns out that 20GB of ECC RAM still really that much for FreeNAS, so I'll probably be upgrading to 32GB.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Fallen Rib

Moey posted:

Are you using dedup? That's a big ol memory hog with ZFS.

Nope, No dedupe. RAIDZ2 on ZFS. I'm slamming the RAM with huge copies, 2 VM's, Transmission, Plex, and some other stuff. ZFS is just gobbling whatever it can. Amazingly, very little slows this thing down. I'm used to my old ReadyNAS, Promise SmartStor, and DNS323, this is a whole other league of performance.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

Moey posted:

Yeah the other services you are running are eating that memory, not the file system itself.

My home box is maxed at 32gb and am starting to get the itch to upgrade it, but I running a much different setup. ESXi booted off a thumbdrive with a controller passed to a freenas VM. Then a bunch of other VMs as well.

Living dangerously, I see (FreeNAS in a VM). With all the plugins/jails off, just FreeNAS is using 16GB of memory. The rule of thumb that I've read is 1GB/TB with ZFS, and I'm running 20TB, so that seems just about right.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

And non-ECC RAM is a no-no with free nas. I'd skip it and run something simpler. Single drive file serving doesn't need ZFS or anything.

My server is running 5x5TB Toshiba drives in RaidZ2, a transmission jail, Plex, virtual box with several vm's... That kind of setup is what free nas excels at.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Fallen Rib

Krailor posted:


If you're not scared of installing your own NAS OS (it's as easy as flashing a USB drive) you have a couple more options
2. TS440: This isn't a small unit but you're getting a quad core Xeon and 4GB ram for $400ish. This can handle pretty much anything you throw at it unless you're doing serious VM work.



They go on sale for $300 regularly. That's what I paid for mine. Four drive caddies were $60, and I put another 16gb of RAM in for $120, but that's unnecessary for basic use. You'd be hard pressed to beat it on a cost/performance basis.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

That's a typo. There are about four common versions of the ts440. Mine was $300 plus shipping, and had no hard drives and only one drive cage. I'm going to add another cage at some point. Free nas is running off a 16GB USB drive.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib


That ts140 isn't a deal, it's been as low as $299.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

In case anyone is looking for big cheap drives (and who isn't), the Toshiba 5TB drives are back to $139.99:
http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-7200r...2/dp/B00OP2PKH2

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

flakeloaf posted:

Why do people insist on not shipping to Canada?

Because the Great White North is scary. Winter is coming, you don't want to be North of the Wall when it comes.



You can probably use a courier service to get stuff across the border, might be worth it if you're buying a bunch.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

It's the classic goon-in-the-well scenario.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

Just fire it up and run a couple SMART long tests and badblocks on it. If it's gonna fail, make it do it immediately.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



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fletcher posted:

Is there a bootable CD I that comes with the utilities to run those tests?

You can run it from FreeNAS, or any Linux live CD. Do some research first, the commands can take a long rear end time if you don't select the right flags to throw. I did a SMART short, SMART long, and then a three-run badblocks on four 5TB Toshibas, iirc, it took about 72 hours.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

If it boots without any hardware halts, run a short smart test, and if that passes, run a SMART long test.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

It reminds me of my dorm room in college. I heated it with nothing but computers, mostly discarded Sun and DEC servers/workstations.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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priznat posted:

Thanks for the responses all, good ideas.

Yeah I would rate the risk of anything on the drives being compromised as very low, with the value of the data even lower. I was curious if there were any quick kill methods like punching out the spindle or drilling a hole thru the platters that people preferred.

I think my method will be wrap with plastic wrap to contain fragments then bash with a 5lb hammer. Should do er nicely!

Somewhat related question for everyone: what is the smallest drive you'd bother hanging on to for storage, like at what point is the power used by a drive mean it's just no longer worth keeping? I am guessing there is a storage/watt metric (one for idle, one for active), I need to look into that.

Duct tape them together, and drill press with 1/2" bit is my preferred mass-destruction method.

And to answer your second question, 750GB is my current cutoff. It's about to move to 1TB.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

Try a freight forwarder?

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Guni posted:

It's a late 2012 drive.

TBH, couldn't you just toss it in a cheap external enclosure, and move it around? It's hardly worth loving about with a NAS for a single 500GB drive. At this point, I've got an old ReadyNAS NV+ with 4x750GB drives that I haven't turned on in 2 years. Too old, too slow, and don't trust the drives after several thousand hours of power on time.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Fallen Rib

Guni posted:

Yeah that's not a bad idea. I guess the biggest concern is; will the HDD overheat in an enclosure?

Not a decent one.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

I've ordered the second drive cage, cables, PSU, and a Dell PERC H310 HBA for my TS440. I'll flash the H310 to LSI IT mode, and should be good to go.

So... the questions is:
I'm running a RaidZ2 of 4x5TB Toshiba drives currently. That gives me ~9TB of usable space. Should I do a full backup of the ~4TB of stuff on this array, and build one out of 8x5TB drives, or should I just start another array/Pool?

Pro's of option 1: I lose a lot less space. A RAIDZ2 on 8x5TB drives will give me 30TB usable. I'd also still only have a single Pool, which would make my new setup just work like the old one.
Cons: Gotta do a backup, which is going to take a lot of time. I'll also be mixing different ages of drives.

Pros of option 2: I can choose non-Toshiba drives, letting me buy what's on sale, possibly WD Reds. No need to backup the current array and restore.
Cons: I lose another 2 drives worth of space, which is a drag.

I could also expand the Pool by adding a VDEV, but I'm not sure that's a great idea. I'm new to the whole ZFS disc management system, so any advice is appreciated. I'm also not sure if I should swap the first array onto the HBA, or just leave it on the motherboard SATA ports as it came from the factory.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Zorak of Michigan posted:

My ZFS experience is professional on Solaris, but unless you absolutely need to be able to keep all your storage in a single pool, I'd say second pool is better than second vdev. Two pools means you can manage your two sets of disk indepentently. Two vdevs in a pool means that if one vdev fails for some reason, the entire pool goes offline. You can also end up with some performance weirdness if one vdev is slower than another, but I doubt that would be a big factor.

It's hard to weigh in on the value of doing a backup/restore vs just expanding since I don't know your backup system or how much of a nuisance it would all be.

I work from home, and business is slow right now, so it's not too big of a PITA time-wise, but I'd have to backup to several drives and then I'd worry about a failure during config or restore.

If I went with a second pool, wouldn't I lose 2 drives of space to RAIDZ2 again? I'd like to not buy 40TB of drives and only have ~20TB available. It would be much more preferable to have 30TB available... but less redundancy redundancy I guess... decisions decisions. I have done some reading on the VDEVs, and agree... no second vdev.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Zorak of Michigan posted:

You have it right. Second pool means more storage lost to redundancy. If you're comfortable with the backup and restore, a whole new pool is definitely better. If you do an orderly export of the old pool and the new pool is all new disks, then your risk is pretty small. Even if one of the backup drives fails, you can just put the old disks back in and import the old pool.

My own plan for end of the calendar year is an 8-disk RAIDZ3 of 8TB NAS drives (40TB usable). I plan to do RAIDZ3 because no backup strategy I can afford will cope with that volume of storage, so I'll be relying on snapshots and redundancy. If all else fails, I can always rip my disks again.

Thanks for the info. Best of luck with that massive array, RAIDZ3 sounds like your best option, aside from loving Tape backup.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Vidaeus posted:

Thanks for the tips. I'll try a direct connection to pinpoint if I have a dodgy cable/termination (likely as I made the cables and did the terminations myself hehe) and try iperf when I get home from work. Will see how that goes before I go get a new NIC

I had the same issue with my NAS. Turned out, I had a broken wire on the punchdown terminal in one of the walls. Both the NAS and the PC reported gigabit connections, but it was only seeing 100-BaseT. I used a cable checker to check the wiring, and mysteriously, one pair was borked. Strip and re-punch down the wire, gigabit speeds restored. If you've got a cable checker, I'd start by checking the in-wall wiring and patch cables.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Vidaeus posted:

Ok good to see that I'm heading down the correct path then, thanks!

The KISS principle applies. Chase the easy, simple, cheap fixes first, then spend money if you have to.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Krailor posted:

For both Newegg and Amazon it's really more about who you're actually buying the drives from since both sites allow 3rd party sellers to post things for sale. If you're buying the drive direct from Newegg or Amazon it should be packaged correctly; however if you're buying it from a 3rd party seller on the site it's more of a crapshoot as to how well the drive is packaged.

Newegg is famous for packing stuff like crap, even purchased directly from them. Between that and their piss-poor return policy (Charging for return shipping on DOA products? gently caress you), I'm an Amazon guy through and through. Amazon normally matches their sale prices within a day or two, if it's a long-term sale.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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IOwnCalculus posted:

The whole "IT mode" thing is not really a hack - and it's not really that hard to do either. Otherwise, you could just search for "host bus adapter" which is all you're turning any of the M1015/etc controllers into, like this one.

Unless it's a Dell Perc H310, and the only machine you have that can flash it is UEFI. In which case, it's a 2-day cursing affair of upgrading and downgrading firmware and flashing all sorts of crap.

But it works perfectly now.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Anyone know if/when the prices on WD Reds are going to drop?

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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D. Ebdrup posted:

I hope none of you used raid5 or raid6 with btrfs, because it has been described as fatally flawed after it was found out that the parity caculation is broken beyond easy repair earlier this July.

Oops. Not me, but anyone who does should be making GBS threads themselves to transfer. That's ugly.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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codo27 posted:

So I set up the mobile app for my Buffalo NAS to auto backup my phone pictures to it. When I entered the folder info, I had already created "Phone Backup" folder on the NAS, but just wrote in Phone backup on the app and it somehow managed to create a new folder with the small b title. This fucks with Windows. I've been able to get them both open separately before but right now its loving me around. There are even subfolders in one of them but I cant get at it by typing out the address, yet both sit side by side in explorer. Both bring me to the same one when I open it. Anybody know any tricks to get around this?

Can you SSH into the NAS and access the file structure directly? If so, then you can just merge the contents, or rename one folder to "1Phone backup", which should take care of Windows. Alternately, I think you could rename via another non-Windows machine/phone.

Don Lapre posted:

Just go on ebay and grab a megaraid 8 port card and some SFF8087 cables

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...=p2045573.m1684

There is a $55 ibm branded one on there and you just need a $10 backplate bracket and cables.

I can tell you from personal experience, don't bother with a Dell HBA. There's a very complicated sequence of firmware upgrading/flashing/downgrading/flashing to get it into IT mode without loving it up. There's a day of my life that I'll never get back.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Gozinbulx posted:

Is FreeNAS the go-to OS now? I'm used to windows and drivepool and what not but I'm not totally unfamiliar with *nix environments. Should it be easy enough for me?

Also where can I calculate how much PSU i need to power x number of WD reds or such?

It's incredibly powerful, well-documented, and has decent free support through their forum. The addition of jails/plugins certainly makes it flexible.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Especially with 5% usage, burn it down and rebuild.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Nowhere near safe enough.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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I have CrashPlan on my FreeNAS. It's a massive pain, but works. I've got 2.60TB uploaded to them, no complaints from them. Just complaints from me about the client. Every update changes some little thing that requires reconfiguring the client or server.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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The Milkman posted:

Godspeed! You Early Adopters

I'm waiting until final release or really the first patch. My desire for the decent web gui and docker is heavily outweighed by not wanting to muck about in a half baked migration

Ditto. Everything I have works fine aside from CrashPlan, and that's just a "scramble to update/fix whatever CP breaks when they update", which is likely to be the same in FN10.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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In case anyone doesn't check SA-Mart, I've got a 1TB 850 PRO for sale... Kinda overkill for a NAS, but that's what this thread is alllllll about.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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Or install it into a non UEFI motherboard. That's what I did with my Dell hba.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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zegermans posted:

It was sold on eBay as a 9264-8i. However that model doesn't even exist on broadcoms website, it skips from 9261 to 9265. I've tried putting it in a few ancient pcie machines and a middle age one and in those they don't even POST with the card in. I can't flash it if it never detects in anything.

My Dell H310 needed two contacts on the PCIE connector covered with tape to POST. Crazy, but it worked, and the card has 4x6TB drives happily running on it.

http://yannickdekoeijer.blogspot.co...roller.html?m=1

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sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

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zegermans posted:

I thought about an H310 on ebay but a lot of reviews said it didn't work. I guess I'll try that on my LSI

It can't hurt... I used kapton tape.

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