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Asleep Style
Oct 20, 2010



I disagree about correspondence being a good idea for new players. Until you get a handle on strategy it doesn't help you to have time to think - your thoughts are wrong. It also takes so long to finish a correspondence game and new players improve so quickly that you'll be locked into bad decisions you made weeks ago. Better to save correspondence games for when you get to low double digit kyu imo.

Goquest is good for casual 9x9 games and fine for a beginner, the caveat is that it's hard to get reviews on those games. I'm not huge on 9x9 in general outside of a few games when you're figuring out the rules. 19x19 is a more interesting game, I feel like it's best to switch to the full board quickly

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mycophobia
May 7, 2008



Asleep Style posted:

I disagree about correspondence being a good idea for new players. Until you get a handle on strategy it doesn't help you to have time to think - your thoughts are wrong. It also takes so long to finish a correspondence game and new players improve so quickly that you'll be locked into bad decisions you made weeks ago. Better to save correspondence games for when you get to low double digit kyu imo.

Goquest is good for casual 9x9 games and fine for a beginner, the caveat is that it's hard to get reviews on those games. I'm not huge on 9x9 in general outside of a few games when you're figuring out the rules. 19x19 is a more interesting game, I feel like it's best to switch to the full board quickly

agreed w/ all this

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009


TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down


Thanks for all the feedback and resources, I'll dive in! I have a few friends that we regularly game together with COVID and many are interested in playing so we may have a group to throw eachother at.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Asleep Style posted:

I disagree about correspondence being a good idea for new players…
I agree with the things in your post. Also, not everyone feels this way, but I feel like dealing with time pressure (e.g. making judgments about how much time it's worth thinking about a certain thing) is an important part of the game of Go. Someone I know who is maybe a 15k in correspondence loses to 20ks over the board because he gets anxious and makes far worse moves when there's a timer.

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008





Asleep Style posted:

I disagree about correspondence being a good idea for new players. Until you get a handle on strategy it doesn't help you to have time to think - your thoughts are wrong. It also takes so long to finish a correspondence game and new players improve so quickly that you'll be locked into bad decisions you made weeks ago. Better to save correspondence games for when you get to low double digit kyu imo.

Goquest is good for casual 9x9 games and fine for a beginner, the caveat is that it's hard to get reviews on those games. I'm not huge on 9x9 in general outside of a few games when you're figuring out the rules. 19x19 is a more interesting game, I feel like it's best to switch to the full board quickly

That's fair. I'm 13K and having a great time with correspondence games because prior to them I had trouble finding an hour I could dedicate to sitting down and focusing on a game, now I just take 10-15 minutes a few times a day to make my moves. I give myself a 1-2 minute clock per move, including time looking at the prior few moves to remind myself what was happening, to avoid going too far down reading everything out.

There are a few games that 100% yes I'm dealing with a mistake I made two weeks ago, but I also have found a handful of people that we get through a game every 3-4 days that are in the 10-14k range that I have ongoing games with.

My irl friend who has been teaching me a bit basically started me off with a 30 minute clock with 5x 30 seconds, from day one told me "we're not adding time", and we gradually carved it down to 10 minutes + 5x 30s. I still gently caress up sometimes and just completely misread something or legit forget what part of the board I wanted to go back to, but the clock is definitely an aspect of the game you shouldn't ignore.

Asleep Style
Oct 20, 2010



dirby posted:

I agree with the things in your post. Also, not everyone feels this way, but I feel like dealing with time pressure (e.g. making judgments about how much time it's worth thinking about a certain thing) is an important part of the game of Go.

Yes, definitely.

Nephzinho posted:

That's fair. I'm 13K and having a great time with correspondence games because prior to them I had trouble finding an hour I could dedicate to sitting down and focusing on a game, now I just take 10-15 minutes a few times a day to make my moves. I give myself a 1-2 minute clock per move, including time looking at the prior few moves to remind myself what was happening, to avoid going too far down reading everything out.

There are a few games that 100% yes I'm dealing with a mistake I made two weeks ago, but I also have found a handful of people that we get through a game every 3-4 days that are in the 10-14k range that I have ongoing games with.

My irl friend who has been teaching me a bit basically started me off with a 30 minute clock with 5x 30 seconds, from day one told me "we're not adding time", and we gradually carved it down to 10 minutes + 5x 30s. I still gently caress up sometimes and just completely misread something or legit forget what part of the board I wanted to go back to, but the clock is definitely an aspect of the game you shouldn't ignore.

This is totally legit, sometimes life circumstances get in the way. You'll improve more by thinking about a few moves every day than you will only playing one or two full games a month. My point was just that I don't think it's a great way to play for beginners.

Somewhere around 13k is where I started to get a sense of when I was in a position where I should resign instead of trying to fight it out til the end, which is especially important with regards to correspondence games. This evolves as players get better of course, to the AI engines most of my moves are game-losing blunders.

I don't think there's anything wrong with people playing the kind of go they like. Hate time pressure and prefer correspondence games? Go for it. Love 9x9? Become the king or queen of goquest. If you want to get "good" then there are better ways to improve, but not every hobby needs to revolve around a quest for mastery

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008





Asleep Style posted:

Yes, definitely.


This is totally legit, sometimes life circumstances get in the way. You'll improve more by thinking about a few moves every day than you will only playing one or two full games a month. My point was just that I don't think it's a great way to play for beginners.

Somewhere around 13k is where I started to get a sense of when I was in a position where I should resign instead of trying to fight it out til the end, which is especially important with regards to correspondence games. This evolves as players get better of course, to the AI engines most of my moves are game-losing blunders.

I don't think there's anything wrong with people playing the kind of go they like. Hate time pressure and prefer correspondence games? Go for it. Love 9x9? Become the king or queen of goquest. If you want to get "good" then there are better ways to improve, but not every hobby needs to revolve around a quest for mastery

Right now at 13k my roadblock is that while I play with solid fundamentals, my opponents who are better than me make these huge reaches that I just don't know how to punish. I can threaten groups, but I can never seem to execute the capture. I have a book on tesuji I've been meaning to read for a couple of weeks and will probably pick up the Attack & Defense book from the same series. Trying to get more comfortable with playing stones in places where they have room to breath even if they don't have a nearby base t oguarantee life. It's led to some games where I steamroll with steady play, and other games where I black out, look up, and realize I don't have enough eye space and there is no escape.

Asleep Style
Oct 20, 2010



Nephzinho posted:

Right now at 13k my roadblock is that while I play with solid fundamentals, my opponents who are better than me make these huge reaches that I just don't know how to punish. I can threaten groups, but I can never seem to execute the capture. I have a book on tesuji I've been meaning to read for a couple of weeks and will probably pick up the Attack & Defense book from the same series. Trying to get more comfortable with playing stones in places where they have room to breath even if they don't have a nearby base t oguarantee life. It's led to some games where I steamroll with steady play, and other games where I black out, look up, and realize I don't have enough eye space and there is no escape.

Punishing moves you know are "wrong" can be really hard. A few things to keep in mind are:
- You don't necessarily have to capture the group in order to take advantage of bad moves. "What can I gain by attacking this group" can be a more productive question than "how can I kill this group"
- You don't have to attack right away. Often a bad move is bad because it creates problems later
- Sometimes you don't have to do anything, the bad move is punishment enough.

In general this is a good opportunity to look for multi-purpose moves. Can you force them to defend while claiming territory or building influence? Feel free to post a game if you want specific advice, I'm happy to do a review.

Attack and defense is a great book

CaptainEO
Sep 24, 2007

Found Something Great Here

TraderStav posted:

I want to learn Go, are there any recommended (free is nice, but a few bucks if it's a high quality version that is a game changing experience) for a new player for iPad? Looking for something with nice tutorial, hints, and lots of practice modes / difficulty levels against the computer. Being able to play a buddy online would be a bonus but not necessary.
If I may be a little self-promotional, BadukPop works on iPad and does all of the above. (I am the lead developer). There is an optional paid subscription but the tutorial lessons, daily tsumego puzzles, and most AI opponents are free. The ability to play correspondence games with friends online is coming in a few days.

TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down


CaptainEO posted:

If I may be a little self-promotional, BadukPop works on iPad and does all of the above. (I am the lead developer). There is an optional paid subscription but the tutorial lessons, daily tsumego puzzles, and most AI opponents are free. The ability to play correspondence games with friends online is coming in a few days.

I'll check it out! No shame in pimping your work. Does it do landscape? Disappointed to find the other one didn't!

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006


As a beginner should I play against humans, or will I develop bad habits for when I play real games against bots?

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender

PerniciousKnid posted:

As a beginner should I play against humans, or will I develop bad habits for when I play real games against bots?

Deep mind really did affect the community, huh.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009


CaptainEO
Sep 24, 2007

Found Something Great Here

TraderStav posted:

I'll check it out! No shame in pimping your work. Does it do landscape? Disappointed to find the other one didn't!

It does do landscape on iPads

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008





Anyone have comments on this game? I'm black.
https://online-go.com/game/26066900

This was my 49th game, white is a player who appears to bounce between 10k and 12k.

Nephzinho fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Aug 11, 2020

Asleep Style
Oct 20, 2010



Nephzinho posted:

Anyone have comments on this game? I'm black.
https://online-go.com/game/26066900

This was my 49th game, white is a player who appears to bounce between 10k and 12k.

Here's my take. For context I got to 6kyu on kgs last time I was playing regularly. I haven't kept up with all of the opening theory changes from AI stuff besides knowing that the computer likes early 3-3 invasions

Move 15: I don't like C10 here because all your left side stones are low. D10 is probably what I would play here, but I'd look at D8 or at least C9 if you're going to play low. A stronger player would probably have a better take on what to play instead

Move 29: moves where you play into a shoulder hit like this are generally bad moves. I think it was nick sibicky that called them armpit hits. The reason it's bad is because it tends to give your opponent the chance to hane at the head of two stones, which is exactly what happened in game. Directionally I would be looking at a move to prevent white from getting an extension from their enclosure in the bottom right

Move 41: I would descend here. White played an armpit hit, see if they give you the chance to hane at the head of two stones.

I think it's worth looking at invading the bottom right corner sometime around here. S5, S4, and R4 should all be options, though I don't remember enough about those sequences to pick one.

Move 52: when white has a 1 space high and 1 space low extension like this I think the 3-3 is still available. This may be affected by the stone at O4

Move 63: E9 feels slow to me. K3 is even better now that you have the three stone group in the middle. I'd also look at C3 and R3

Move 152: I think if white plays S1 here the corner is dead


Take all that with a grain of salt, I'm rusty. Congrats on the win. Do you mean that's your 49th game ever? 14k is quick improvement for so few games

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008






I will pay better attention to shoulder hits. I was taught that they were a good way to establish a base for your stones, which i guess I use in places where I don't really need to. I will keep it in the quiver for tight invasions, but be more mindful when it is on the back of a wall where the head of two stones is going to really crush my territory.

I definitely put off the bottom right invasion for far too long in this game, there were a number of scenarios where that group would've died or I would've been forced to escape out either side which would not be a guarantee.

I made a move in the endgame that didn't necessitate a response that would potentially have cost me the game by a point if it was ignored and they took back sente, but they jumped on it.

I played some teaching games with an IRL friend before that, but yes.

Asleep Style
Oct 20, 2010



Nephzinho posted:

I will pay better attention to shoulder hits. I was taught that they were a good way to establish a base for your stones, which i guess I use in places where I don't really need to. I will keep it in the quiver for tight invasions, but be more mindful when it is on the back of a wall where the head of two stones is going to really crush my territory.

I definitely put off the bottom right invasion for far too long in this game, there were a number of scenarios where that group would've died or I would've been forced to escape out either side which would not be a guarantee.

I made a move in the endgame that didn't necessitate a response that would potentially have cost me the game by a point if it was ignored and they took back sente, but they jumped on it.

I played some teaching games with an IRL friend before that, but yes.

Shoulder hits are fine, the problem is when you play a move that makes it as if your opponents stone was a shoulder hit. Because it's their turn next it's as if they played the shoulder hit, you ignored it, and they get to follow up again. The diagrams here are probably better for explaining it than I can do with words:
https://senseis.xmp.net/?ArmpitHit

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008





Asleep Style posted:

Shoulder hits are fine, the problem is when you play a move that makes it as if your opponents stone was a shoulder hit. Because it's their turn next it's as if they played the shoulder hit, you ignored it, and they get to follow up again. The diagrams here are probably better for explaining it than I can do with words:
https://senseis.xmp.net/?ArmpitHit

That is super helpful. I initially didn't use the angle play/shoulder hit at all and was super slow, and I guess I over corrected the other way.

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat


Focus on fixing your direction of play. Move 15 was your big mistake, and either an approach or an enclosure would have been better. The stuff like armpit hits into getting haned is bad, but giving away sente for free is worse.

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008





Anias posted:

Focus on fixing your direction of play. Move 15 was your big mistake, and either an approach or an enclosure would have been better. The stuff like armpit hits into getting haned is bad, but giving away sente for free is worse.

Noted. I tend to ask myself "does this move make my opponent do a thing, and if they don't do that thing will I be able to punish them for it" before every move. Think at move 15 I kind of froze on what to do, was worried that if I invaded the bottom right I would be ceding the entire bottom territory, and if I approached they would pincer and that group would be very very far away from help (which is a situation I need to get more comfortable with anyway).

Ditto_Face
Aug 19, 2020


Used to play at the Oakland County club in MI with Dave! I'm very rusty and haven't read the sticky for this thread yet... Not going to lie, I pretty intimidated when it comes to getting back into the swing of things. Anyone know where I could find a good coach? I play Magic: The Gathering competitively, but am very much willing to take time off from that to brush up on my Go.

Lyon
Apr 17, 2003


You are in luck! They talk more about magic than go in the discord server so join up and you’ll fit right in.

Blendy
Jun 18, 2007

She thinks I'm a haughty!



Lyon posted:

You are in luck! They talk more about magic than go in the discord server so join up and you’ll fit right in.

We (sometimes) keep it in #gambling, but that gets invaded with stocks.

I'm not sure anyone really teaches, but woss has been enjoying the ai reviews from ogs. I'll probably sign up once I have a job again.

There's good lesson videos on YouTube from the AGA and some other folks.

Our discord does have a library of go books so check the saved comments to learn how to access the library.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009


I think it's been literal years since I played a game, but I always end up glancing at this thread and thinking "...maybe..."

giogadi
Oct 27, 2009



PMush Perfect posted:

I think it's been literal years since I played a game, but I always end up glancing at this thread and thinking "...maybe..."

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009


Except even the Discord is pretty much dead.

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008





PMush Perfect posted:

Except even the Discord is pretty much dead.

Might have something to do with the invite in the OP being invalid for a long long time.

Lyon
Apr 17, 2003


I just started playing a little bit again recently and it has been humbling.

sensual donkey punching
Mar 13, 2004

=)

Nap Ghost

I fixed the discord link, thank u xom

Ditto_Face
Aug 19, 2020


I'll jump in the discord right now! Thank you guys for sending me in the right direction! I'm SquishyCthulu on Discord though, heads up.

I actually started doing ladder reads again yesterday and it felt great.

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008





Anyone want to check out some 12k on 12k action?
https://online-go.com/game/26693217

Opponent paid for AI review, there were 2ish moves early on that I made the AI didn't like. One in the bottom left I am going to look at variations for (and i ended up getting there first anyway, I think the AI is telling me it would've been better to let the corner get a little bigger to ensure I had a solid cap on the group), the other in the bottom right (where i got to it 2-3 moves later). Opponent made a number of "-5%" moves throughout the early game that added up.

pointsofdata
Apr 25, 2011



Has GoQuest seen a bunch of rank inflation? I haven't played in ages (like a year) but am suddenly winning loads of games, before i was appropriately ranked

Xom
Sep 2, 2008

文化英雄


Fan of Britches

https://brantondemoss.com/writing/kata/

Good article on KataGo, the latest improvement on the AlphaGo method*.

*which was independently discovered and presented with the more descriptive name "expert iteration" in a paper on Hex also published in 2017.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Great read, thanks

perc2
May 16, 2020



The journey to 1d begins again.... see you all in 14 years....

perc2
May 16, 2020



For reference I dropped from 4k to 18k although I think my current ranking is more based on drunken attempts to play since everything my opponents play is dogshit yet I keep losing???? Mysteries of life....

Nephzinho
Jan 24, 2008





What kind of records exist for professional games over time? Or, more specifically, has anyone tried to train AI to emulate specific pros. Not that it matters much beyond being an interesting hypothetical.

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PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006


Nephzinho posted:

What kind of records exist for professional games over time? Or, more specifically, has anyone tried to train AI to emulate specific pros. Not that it matters much beyond being an interesting hypothetical.

Now I really want to play go against dead people.

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