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dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
Has anyone in here ever read Mathematical Go? Supposedly it gives an algorithm for perfect late endgames (which I hear from my Go playing friends are not as significant in Go as in Chess). I've studied the math (combinatorial game theory) behind it, and I'd love to hear from a Go player who read the book.

Also, I've started to learn go and then forgot the rules multiple times, but maybe I'll get into it again thanks to this thread.

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dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Howard posted:

here we go. moves 5 and 7 by white are known as a driving tesuji, forcing b to descend to take territory/whatever. i'm not sure how i feel about my decision to play 2 in response to 1
I just looked up tesuji on youtube, and was not happy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUWM4RH1F_Y

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
Speaking of interactive Go tutorials, I found http://playgo.to/interactive/ much more useful in terms of remembering the rules than just reading text.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
Everyone says play a some games on a full board to see if you'll like go, but that didn't work for me the few times I tried it.

I recently played a couple games on a 9x9 board, and carefully reviewed the games, and to my surprise, I think I will like Go (and feel kinda cramped on the 9x9 board).

What have I done to myself?

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Under 15 posted:

I encourage 19x19 games for learning because the curve in go is bad enough; it's a difficult game already, and 9x9 is a board with very little margin for error or room for comebacks.
The few times I tried starting to learn on a 9x9 board, I was 100% lost, and wasn't having any fun. I understood the rules and pretty much nothing else (I didn't know about playto back then).

quote:

It's hard to review a nublet on a 9x9 because there is there is a very real chance that black has hopelessly hosed himself over by the fifth move.
Yeah, but that doesn't matter unless the "nublet" is obsessed with winning, does it? All that matters is that they learn some things about how things should be played, which at this level probably means things like "don't forget to be aware of what stones are in atari".

quote:

The other bad thing about 9x9 is that it will not teach you a lot of skills you need to know on the 19x19, which is ultimately the only board that counts.
That's why I'll be moving up to it as soon as I feel comfortable, which probably means in like one more game.

quote:

It's fine to play 9x9 for fun, but you won't have any fun playing go if you don't learn anything.
Maybe you underestimate how little someone I knew when I started playing it? I felt like I learned a lot in 2 games on a 9x9 board. Then I felt like I didn't learn any more on the third game, and moved up to a 13x13 for a game, where I learned a bit more (and thus had fun), but it's still clear to me that I should move to a 19x19 board as soon as possible.

In summary, a 19x19 board is really intimidating and confusing if you jump right into it, but I think I agree that playing on 13x13's or smaller won't be fun for long.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Under 15 posted:

I think we are not on the same timescale here though.
Sorry about that; of course you're right.

Under 15 posted:

...first hundred...
Oh, I understand completely. I've read through this whole thread, etc. I'm in awe that I'm enjoying this (non-go?, pseudo-go?, whatever it is I'm doing in my first 50 games) at all. Since I don't really like any other games of strategy, I'm finally giving Go a real shot.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

qxan posted:

Go is really entertaining.

I just played my first 19x19 game, and I have to agree. Also, I don't know if I can ever go back to smaller boards.

Edit: I'm pretty sure they exist, but I'm having trouble guessing the right search terms and/or clicking on the right links. Is there a program for windows (or just a website) that will calculate answers to simple life-and-death problems? I know that someone at Sensei's Library seems to be working on one, but I can't compile the code, etc.

Edit2: It may not be the easiest program to use, but having GoKnot play in the area until both players were passing seemed to work ok. I'm still open to suggestions though.

dirby fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Jul 5, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
I think my edits may have gotten lost in the shuffle. Does anyone know of a better way to use a Windows computer (or website) to attempt to analyze life and death problems than seeing how GoKnot deals with the situation?

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Urban Renewal posted:

I'd honestly just post them in ITGO if you have questions about one you can't figure out yourself.

Thanks. I suppose that's the next best thing. I just wanted something that I could use quickly and whenever I wanted.

Lyon posted:

Yeah if the problem doesn't have a solution with it I don't know of any programs that will solve it for you.

Well, if the problem is simple enough, a regular program that plays should be able to play it perfectly. That's my reasoning with GoKnot, anyway.

Edit: Tenuki Suit:

Click here for the full 939x978 image.

dirby fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jul 7, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

qxan posted:

Everyone should play Go. :3:

I'm getting the impression that everyone sucks at go, with the people who haven't started yet sucking the most of all.

Come to KGS and suck less!

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
I know next to nothing about IGS (except that its interface looks like a shell). Why does everyone here prefer KGS?

Also, I may have just started playing Go, but I can already appreciate this page that all of you probably have already seen.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

xau posted:

Note: You must be an AGA member to participate in rated events! It's $30 for a year, or $10 if you're under 23. link

Note: That page doesn't work properly in Chrome, but Firefox works fine.

Doomclown posted:

What's ITGO?
It's where all of the cool people hang out on KGS.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
What sort of Go clock does everyone here use?

I'm using DSGoClock for now, but at some point will probably have to get a real one.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

xau posted:

If you are interested PM me here or email me: nexterh at gmail. There is no need to commit to anything.

xau, I PMed you a while ago; is that thing actually happening? If so, could you PM me info like when and where I should be, who else is coming, and anything else I should know?

dirby fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Aug 1, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
If anyone else here aside from xau and I were planning on trying to get to the Go congress (I assume ideally on Wednesday), then you have to e-mail xau (nexterh at gmail) or PM me to get the relevant info, as they can't get onto SA at the moment.

The deal is still on!

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

sensual donkey punching posted:

the people demand a go congress report.

I don't even know where to begin. Pros playing poker with amateurs, amateur dans playing chess to pass the time, tons of stones falling on the floor, several amateur dans under 13, seemingly arbitrary official rules, ...

Is there something in particular you wanted to know?

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Under 15 posted:

I would not trust a bot to analyze anything properly except for perhaps the late endgame.

On the flip side, there are (admittedly contrived) late endgame problems that some bots/humans with a lot of time can solve that some 9ps cannot.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Urban Renewal posted:

was there cooking by Authentic Japanese Housewives

If by cooking by Authentic Japanese Housewives you mean bad coffee provided by the university, then yes. Otherwise, no.

Also, I have no pictures because my phone doesn't even have a camera.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Peantoo posted:

I fixed it. Let's all do our part to make sure that poo poo never happens again.

I fixed the French version of the page.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Peantoo posted:

That's it, I quit Go. Can't even do this right.

You have to quit Go 100 times before you can begin to understand the game.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Soon I'll surpass that Dr. Hutchinkiss in rank. I just need to suck slightly less.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Cybermg posted:

Ugh, I feel like I've sort of fallen off the train. It's been like a week and a half since my last game, and I know my reentry will be rough. Maybe tomorrow...

helopticor posted:

You have to quit Go 100 times before you can begin to understand the game.

I think I'm already up to 4 or 5. The key is to stop worrying about losing...again.

dirby fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Aug 22, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Peantoo posted:

Ok guys here is a real Go question: Why do I fear playing a game of Go more than walking alone at night through the ghetto? For reference, I am a white boy who doesn't belong in the ghetto.

Because if you're killed/mugged in the ghetto, almost no one will look down on you for it. But if you lose a game of Go, or win but play poorly, everyone will look down on you.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

McNerd posted:

(Of course if you're wrong, failing to play an important move in the fight can be bad news!)

I just lost a game due to this.

I guess I need to practice reading tinies/minies.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Mez posted:

oh god KGS is down. My life in ruins

I had thought it was just me. Luckily, it's back up.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
I voted New York because I am in Baltimore, and it's easier to get to New York than Chicago.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Blendy posted:

That being said. Mini meetups are an option.

We could just have everyone get on goonmap.com and then make an ITGO group and see where the best spots might be.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

qxan posted:

Do the goonmap thing. It would be the middle of the ocean. Which ocean? I don't know.

I created an ITGO group on goonmap, but it doesn't seem to actually make a map of the locations of the members in the group. I guess goonmap is no better than just using a private Google map (shared to people in ITGO, I guess).

Edit: If you want an invitation to the ITGO map, just say an e-mail address in ITGO (or here I guess, if you're not paranoid) and it'll be invited.

dirby fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Aug 30, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Invitation sent. However, we're not going to get very far if no one uses it.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

xau posted:

I added a bunch of people to the map whether they like it or not!!

It looks like there should be a Philadelphia meet, perhaps.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Under 15 posted:

At the low ranks, you can gain 3-4 stones a month with a little effort and it's pretty rare to just find someone who is currently at 15k, almost as hard as it is to find a boyfriend-free girl.
Hey, I'm currently at 15k. I guess I should lose some games to fix that.

Under 15 posted:

The algorithm says we're meeting in Bumfuck, Idaho.
I don't think Amtrak goes to Bumfuck and I don't have a car.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

helopticor posted:

Hey, I'm currently at 15k. I guess I should lose some games to fix that.

I beat a 13k with two stones by 0.5, which pushed me up to 14k. Let's see if I stay there.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
Is it F3? If not, then I guess I'll have to go into ITGO and ask where my reading went wrong. (late edit: mystes pointed out where I went wrong)

Edit:

mystes posted:

Is it G3?

I don't think that works: If black follows up with G4, you capture the E3 group, but if black follows up with, say, F3, then the only reasonable move for white seems to be G4. Then G5 is in atari.
If black responds to save the stone, then white gets to capture the J4 (or, if F3 were a move to protect the J4 group, then the E3 group). Therefore, blsck shouldn't try to save the stone. White gets to capture, which starts a ko, and even if white wins the ko, it doesn't give enough points.

dirby fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Sep 4, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

mystes posted:

I was thinking of a slightly different sequence but I'm not sure if it works. If black does G4 then I would have white do F3 next.

That's exactly what I said:

helopticor posted:

If black follows up with G4, you capture the E3 group
Yes, white doing F3 next is how I was thinking of that happening.

However, I tried to argue that black has a better response than G4, which means this line doesn't affect how many points white can guarantee.

Edit:

mystes posted:

Edit: If white does f3 then can't black do G1 and successfully respond to anything after that?

Well, if you were right, then that means that your suggestion of G3 is wrong from the get-go. However, if the plays go G3, G4, F3, G1 then they continue on to white F1, black F2, white G2, black F1, white H1 and white does successfully capture the E3 group.

dirby fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Sep 4, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

mystes posted:

Edit: If white does f3 [edit: I meant as the very first move in the problem] then can't black do G1 and successfully respond to anything after that?
vvv

Now that I understand what this is in response to, I think that my initial answer of F3 to the problem was wrong.

mystes posted:

Here's the whole sequence [edit: I mean for my answer to the problem]:

It looks that it's still the case that the most white can guarantee is capturing that one stone which I think isn't enough points, but I'm kinda lost now so maybe it is enough in this variation, or maybe there's a move in a completely different region of the board.

dirby fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Sep 4, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

Argue posted:

I live dangerously how about W O4

That's so much simpler and I think it works.

dirby fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Sep 4, 2009

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

mystes posted:

One more try at my sequence:

I think this makes sense, and is very interesting because it does better than capturing one stone. Of course it's not as good a move as Argue's, but whatever.

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math

mystes posted:

I think you can probably take the group from Argue's move after at least most of my cases (I don't want to check the whole thing) but if you go with Argue's move black can block with G3 after to prevent my move :colbert:.

Well, in the cases in which the E3 group is all that you take, black can defend against Argue's move. and I think you don't remove enough territory to compensate for that. Therefore, if black plays the best moves (as far as I can see), your move is worse than Argue's (but still better than my guess which gets nothing).

dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
Mez, you're like the only one who might be able to make it to Blendy's.

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dirby
Sep 21, 2004


Helping goons with math
I just got back from a tournament that used Fischer clocks.

I lost all four of my games (including one by 2.5 or 3.5 to an 8 year old Japanese kid who played White with no komi), and Fischer clocks suck for go.

That said, I really need to take time away from this real-life Go to play on KGS more, since I probably don't play like a 14k anymore.

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