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If we're talking story then it was probably the best of the series up until we got Berseria. There's a lot of fluff in the game but they did a good job on the plot and characters. I don't know how I'd really feel about just remastering the game. I don't think the game has aged as badly as Vesperia simply because stuff isn't as gated in Abyss, it just doesn't have as much going on. The game itself has nice art design for the characters and some locations, but it definitely feels more in need of redoing then games like Symphonia or Vesperia because of the style. I'd definitely buy a port of Abyss, but I do think it needs a straight up remake.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 16:58 |
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# ? Apr 18, 2024 00:24 |
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The Colonel posted:how is the writing in abyss "dated", it's the one thing about the game that holds up perfectly and even stands up against some of the better tales stories Moreover, how does writing become "dated"? I mean, certainly some writing is avant garde in comparison to other, more traditional writing, but I don't think old writing should be described as "dated" exactly. It's especially perplexing to describe a story as "dated" after a mere one and a half decades. I used to read on the train,
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:08 |
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Abyss's writing is great and imo still the high point of the entire series in terms of writing, although Berseria did edge closer to it than most. The graphics would definitely need an actual HD bump in the same vein that Symphonia HD got though, and yeah it definitely has an issue where come the second half of the game it almost completely runs out of new areas and just has you constantly backtrack to dungeons and towns you've already been to. Not sure how you really tackle that though without remaking huge sections of the game. My guess is if we got a remaster it'd be similar to Symphonia's: HD graphics and maybe some extra costumes, but otherwise identical to the original TotA. Maybe we'll get an option for Japanese audio. No way they're going to put in the money to do things like bring the English VA cast back to voice the skits, or add any significant new areas or content.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 17:45 |
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The only thing I'd really call dated in Abyss's writing is how many random filler dungeons there are, and thats hardly a problem that's gone away completely from the series, or RPGs in general.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 18:29 |
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Ogmius815 posted:Moreover, how does writing become "dated"? I mean, certainly some writing is avant garde in comparison to other, more traditional writing, but I don't think old writing should be described as "dated" exactly. It's especially perplexing to describe a story as "dated" after a mere one and a half decades. Movies, books or games not dated because they are old, but because some of the shortcut/lazyness/focus they had were a product of a specific time that either doesn't translate to the current one or are known to be flat out bad. There are plenty of films from the 50s that are still incredibly moderns.... and plenty of films from the 90s that are incredibly dated. It's a question of how, not of age.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:22 |
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Someday I will play Tales of Destiny DC and Destiny 2 in English. I believe.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:38 |
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Arkeus posted:Movies, books or games not dated because they are old, but because some of the shortcut/lazyness/focus they had were a product of a specific time that either doesn't translate to the current one or are known to be flat out bad. Sure, calling a video game dated makes sense sense in the context of something like, I don't know, unvoiced cutscenes (although I honestly don't agree that these are as big a deal as some people think and generally regard "full voice acting" as a scourge of modern RPG gaming, but I digress), slow-moving world maps, obtuse sidequest activation, limited battle controls, or simplistic battle mechanics. The complaint I quoted, however, talked broadly about the game's "writing." That, at minimum, requires some more explanation. To my knowledge, there haven't been any fundamental shifts of language that would render Abyss "outdated." Neither the Japanese nor English languages have shifted beyond comprehension since 2005, nor has the alphabet received a major update. Presumably then the OP must have been talking about the story or script, and as flattering as it might be to all of us to think that video game storytelling has been radically revolutionized since 2005, I'm not sure that that's true. It's at least the sort of claim that's going to need a lot more explanation than some conclusory statement that Abyss's "writing" is "dated." Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 22, 2020 |
# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:42 |
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Writing only becomes dated when it specifically reverence something relevant Ed to the decade in question that either went away as time went on or lost relevance. So fantasy games are less often the victim of being dated as they aren’t going to reference the real world as much
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:50 |
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If anything Abyss' writing has only gotten more relevant with the rise of information technology, since it's about overreliance on knowing everything ahead of time instead of self-determining and one man's quest to tear down the existing system, but abstracted enough to not feel too "what if Google but too much." Crestoria is going down something vaguely similar but more overtly about social media. You can see a clear streak of what we'd call cancel culture in it. Also I've soured on Xillia 2's writing after playing it - the Ludger/Elle stuff is fine, but Milla's and Jude's epilogues in particular roll back a lot of what Xillia actually did right on the "dual protagonist" thing and almost feel like putting Milla in her place as heroine.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:56 |
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tbf fantasy is often metaphor. there's plenty of cold war era fantasy and sci-fi that feels kind of dated because it was clearly a parable about the cold war. but abyss is if anything exploring near-future concepts like cloning through a fantasy lens, so that doesn't really apply either.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 19:57 |
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i like the end stuff in xillia 2 and some of the character stories but yeah a few of them feel kinda eh, like muzet's just completely loving drops the ball in the stupidest way they don't even pretend to give her meaningful writing lol
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 20:01 |
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I never really got the vibe of Milla being 'put in her place,' the dialogues mostly about Milla and Jude relying on each other
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 20:04 |
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There's this one choice towards the end of Jude's, I think it's the very last one, where Jude has gone off to plan his next Origin experiment with the inspiration he's gotten, and Milla is looking at him go into the distance and says something like "he's grown right past me." The correct answer is "but you're going the same way." I remember it because when I got to that part, I said "what?" out loud. Like, Milla in Xillia has normal heroine bits, but they take specific strides to set her apart. Each time she gets nerfed, she fights her own way through it even as Jude tries to save her. She learns to Depend On Others, but that doesn't just mean Jude, it's about her own perspective and motivation. She drives a lot of the plot on her own terms and not just presenting Jude with a hero's journey call to action. I know that it's Jude's epilogue, but Milla just staring at him walk off to change the world himself is an image that's anti-the good parts of Xillia. It retroactively reaffirms Jude's relationship with Milla as the magical girl from the sky, being the catalyst of his growth into the important science man and living proof that his conviction has bridged the gap between man and spirit, and now her role is to stand proudly by his side, in that the game literally tells her that in so many words. And it's not like Milla gets her own epilogue where she gets agency and acknowledgement of her character growth. Half of it is the tragedy of alt-Milla, and the part about her is about how Maxwell's girlfriend influenced him. e: I was wrong, it's the last choice of Milla's and it's about how much Jude's grown. Caphi fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Apr 22, 2020 |
# ? Apr 22, 2020 20:17 |
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Endorph posted:tbf fantasy is often metaphor. there's plenty of cold war era fantasy and sci-fi that feels kind of dated because it was clearly a parable about the cold war. I mostly agree that this is how a video game fantasy/sci-fi story (as distinct from "writing", which is broader) could be dated. In short, I don't think any of the Tales stories are "dated" exactly. Now, most of them are bad, but their being bad has nothing to do with their relevance to contemporary thought. Rather, Tales stories are generally bad because they deal with ideas at a surface level without really troubling about the nuances and ambiguities presented by real world situations. For example, Symphonia's entire narrative comes down to a rejection of consequentialist views of ethical behavior. At the beginning of the story, Kratos, the narrator, sees Mithos's two worlds system as a necessary evil to prevent a recurrence of some kind of cataclysmic war (I think, the exact details are fuzzy because I haven't played the game in fifteen years). But Lloyd insists that the two worlds system is wrong inherently and is determined to end it, risk of war be damned. By observing Lloyd, Kratos and the player are supposed to learn not to accept injustice for utilitarian reasons. But the force of that message is severely undercut by the fact that our appointed champion of consequentialism, Mithos, is a crazy person who wants to solve racism by snuffing out life as we know it and beginning an "age of lifeless beings." To say that the writers haven't really applied the principal of charity to the viewpoint they want to criticize is a pretty big understatement. And that kind of simplification is always happening in Tales stories.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 21:00 |
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Caphi posted:There's this one choice towards the end of Jude's, I think it's the very last one, where Jude has gone off to plan his next Origin experiment with the inspiration he's gotten, and Milla is looking at him go into the distance and says something like "he's grown right past me." The correct answer is "but you're going the same way." I remember it because when I got to that part, I said "what?" out loud.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 21:20 |
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That's a pretty fair critique, but it might also be what's being referred to as being dated. The Taleses claim to fame is that they take complicated characters and take them out of the paradigm of good and evil being obvious, 1-note things. Dhaos was the first major antagonist of the series, and his entire appeal is that he's not wholly unjustified in his beliefs or what he sets out to do. Ultimately he's wrong and the narrative goes out of its way to make you feel that you (as Cress) are in the right, but it does so with way more nuance than was commonly found in narratives at the time. Like, Kefka and Lavos are obviously 100% evil and irredeemable. Dhaos? Not so much. Sometimes though, that paradigm runs in conflict to the plot itself. Van being a sympathetic character is a little bit undone by his plan being the genocide of all sapient living beings until you buy into the idea that what he's doing is somehow liberating. If you take a very outside view that replicas were saved people (like a clone can count as the real thing, so there's a continuity of existence despite the game kind of making it clear that isn't the case with Luke), you can almost see Van in the same light that you cold see Dhaos in -- off, but not like, a total monster. The game doesn't really do that in the writing, I think because it doesn't want to give the player the option to see Van as possibly being correct, but I think the limitation is partially because of adherence to tradition. So in some respects you could say the writing feels "dated" because it follows series-established ideal that antagonists should be sympathetic, but sometimes to the detriment of their actions being believable. Beseria's a good counter-example because the bad guy plot is pretty similar in terms of end goals, but Arthur is given space to show that he struggles with the flaws of his own plan in a way that makes him feel more like a real person than Mithos or Van (or Heldalf) manage. He knows what he's striving for will enslave countless people, but he's so wound up in his own personal sacrifices that he won't allow himself to stop. It's a small tweak, but it works better than the standard antagonist-is-vengeful-about-personal-injustice paradigm that had been the norm. I don't know that I'd say that it's dated, personally, but the structure and the writing method definitely seems to have changed from the older games to the newer ones. It's not always better, of course.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 21:31 |
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Caphi posted:There's this one choice towards the end of Jude's, I think it's the very last one, where Jude has gone off to plan his next Origin experiment with the inspiration he's gotten, and Milla is looking at him go into the distance and says something like "he's grown right past me." The correct answer is "but you're going the same way." I remember it because when I got to that part, I said "what?" out loud. Xillia had a lot of parts where it felt afraid to actually have Milla be a heroine. A kind of "don't worry, she still is a normal girl" thing that sometimes were, well, robbing her of agency. Some kind of "OK, she was doing all of this before, but now that a man is also doing it she can go back to the kitchen" thing I'm fairly sure it was just poor calibration (hence the afraid to have Milla be 'too much' criticism) rather than an actual "she can't be an heroine", but yeah.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 21:46 |
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Arkeus posted:Xillia had a lot of parts where it felt afraid to actually have Milla be a heroine. A kind of "don't worry, she still is a normal girl" thing that sometimes were, well, robbing her of agency. Some kind of "OK, she was doing all of this before, but now that a man is also doing it she can go back to the kitchen" thing I think Milla's issues stem primarily from Xillia being rushed and focus being put on Jude's story first and foremost. The dual protagonist thing seems to have put them in a bind because they wanted both of them to have badass heroic moments, but after the first half of the game they definitely ran out of time. In all of her post-Xillia appearances she's treated pretty much as an equal to Jude (or he's in awe of her), so I think it's probably just cut corners shafting her than developer intent.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 22:09 |
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Ershalim posted:So in some respects you could say the writing feels "dated" because it follows series-established ideal that antagonists should be sympathetic, but sometimes to the detriment of their actions being believable. Beseria's a good counter-example because the bad guy plot is pretty similar in terms of end goals, but Arthur is given space to show that he struggles with the flaws of his own plan in a way that makes him feel more like a real person than Mithos or Van (or Heldalf) manage. He knows what he's striving for will enslave countless people, but he's so wound up in his own personal sacrifices that he won't allow himself to stop. It's a small tweak, but it works better than the standard antagonist-is-vengeful-about-personal-injustice paradigm that had been the norm. Painting Van's motivation as just wanting revenge for personal injustice misses the mark though. Yes he's definitely very bitter about Hod, but his primary motivation (and also his greatest character flaw) is his unflinching faith in the immutability of the Score. He's so sure that it cannot be prevented from marching on that he even writes off perceived deviations as meaningless; when Luke claims the Score didn't predict him Van counters with "though the leaves may change the essence of the tree does not." In fact he even takes advantage of deviations for his benefit. His plan in the end isn't to overturn the Score - again he doesn't think that's possible - but rather to ride the Score out to its end in a specific way that gives birth to a new world that would in Van's eyes finally be free of it. Auldrant will die, but Eldrant will rise from its ashes. This is also how he is able to justify his planned genocide: in his eyes everybody is going to die because the Score says so whether he does anything or not, so none of that death actually matters or is blood on his hands. What matters is trying to ensure that once everything that is, is dead, that there will be something new to take its place. Van is also, in his eyes, following in the steps and ideals of Yulia. As you learn at the very end of the game, and also a bit if you bother to unlock Yulia's gravesite, Yulia used the Score to solve the immediate crisis of her era but didn't desire for people to blindly follow the Score forever. Rather, she wanted them to find a way to avert the ruin that lied at the end of the Seventh Fonstone. This is yet another way Van justifies his genocide: the people who claim to love Yulia are doing the exact opposite of what she wished for, and in doing so are blindly and happily marching towards their own deaths. These contradictory elements: that Van admires Yulia who wanted to overturn the Score, hates the masses who blindly follow it without trying to overturn the Score, but also believes in no uncertain terms that the Score cannot be overturned, ultimately weave together to form the logic of and motivation for his plan. Because Van's whole motivation then is bound up in unquestioning faith, he can't really have moments like Arthur where he's not sure of himself. That said he does have moments of weakness: he offers Tear and Guy places in his new world because he genuinely loves both of them, and his conversation with Guy in Belkend makes it clear Van isn't jumping for joy at the prospect of any of what he's doing and is saddened that he will have to opposed his childhood friend. He also genuinely accepts and congratulates Luke for growing out from under the shadow of Asch into his own person, and offers him a place in his new world as well. What little he feels he can do within the confines of the Score, he does try to do. I can understand finding Arthur more compelling as a character - I don't know if I necessarily agree but I can see it - but lumping Van in with Mithos doesn't feel right.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 22:12 |
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Sydin posted:good stuff I don't remember the finer points of Abyss well enough, I think. I remembered Van as being especially incensed that the Score meant that people never truly lived instead of them all being fated to die, but your perspective on him definitely makes him feel more well-rounded than the one I'm remembering in my head. My own post kind of got away from me in all the edits I made to it, but even in my own memory, you're right that Van and Mithos aren't really on the same level. Mithos and Heldalf, tho, yeah?
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 22:23 |
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To be fair a lot of character details and plot beats in Abyss are obfuscated and require either going well out of the way for additional side quest content or just replaying the game enough times to be able to pick up on elements that you can piece together but the game never really does for you explicitly. If you're just playing the game for the first time and not paying rapt attention to what exactly went down on Hod, Guy and Tear's backstories and how Van relates to them, read all the books in the in-game library that explain Van's family history, find Yulia's gravesite in the final dungeon, and go hunting for tons of obscure optional content like a very critical conversation between Van and Guy in Belkend that's time gated to one specific moment in the game and can then never be seen again, Van can come off as just another genocidal maniac. I've played the game over a dozen times and also took a fine tooth comb to it for the purposes of an LP, so I could probably bang out paragraphs about any major character in the game. Mithos sucks as a character but it is pretty funny how he shakes off being told point blank by Martel "everything you're doing in my name is wrong, please stop" in a couple seconds, and when you beat him his response is "gently caress you Lloyd, you're wrong and I'm right, you just happened to be stronger than me." He and Heldalf are pretty bad though. I'd throw Emeraude in there as well since her entire motivation for being the primary antagonistic force of the game is that senpai wouldn't notice her.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 22:39 |
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Emeraude having such a dumb motivation is fine because the game doesn't expect you to sympathize with her at all. She's also very dumb. Surely if you have a crush on some guy you befriend his kid, not torture it. Lambda would be the equivalent character in Graces anyway, and the main issue with him was more that they wait until the final dungeon to really give him any backstory. For what game he's in I think he's otherwise alright.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 22:47 |
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Sydin posted:Mithos sucks as a character but it is pretty funny how he shakes off being told point blank by Martel "everything you're doing in my name is wrong, please stop" in a couple seconds, and when you beat him his response is "gently caress you Lloyd, you're wrong and I'm right, you just happened to be stronger than me." He and Heldalf are pretty bad though. I'd throw Emeraude in there as well since her entire motivation for being the primary antagonistic force of the game is that senpai wouldn't notice her. I have a serious soft spot for Emmy because she's a venal, shallow, bitter jilted shell of a person and she totally owns that. I might be the only person who likes her, but her transition from "wishes she was a side chick" to "megalomaniacal god-tripper" in half a dungeon just resonated with me in my angsty teen years. I would totally have done the same thing. She's terrible, but she's not written as anything but that, and basically everyone but Asbel picks up on her being a nightmare by her second sentence. I love that. I think I last played Abyss in like, 2008. So I definitely concede to you on the bits of characterization I'm not remembering. Maybe a remaster (if they make one) can fix the time-gating while they're upping the resolution and I'll see for myself in 2028. Momomo posted:Lambda would be the equivalent character in Graces anyway, and the main issue with him was more that they wait until the final dungeon to really give him any backstory. For what game he's in I think he's otherwise alright. That and Richard's reasoning for going with Lambda never really made sense to me. I mean the ... third(?) time. I get that Asbel sucks, but you couldn't ask for a more obvious show of friendship than an idiot chasing you across the planet to give speeches at you despite your obvious murderous intent. Asbel deciding to take Lambda into himself afterwards is kind of in character for Asbel, so as dumb as it is narratively it still makes sense character-wise, but Richard? Not so much. Ershalim fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Apr 22, 2020 |
# ? Apr 22, 2020 22:51 |
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Sydin posted:He and Heldalf are pretty bad though. Heldalf is hilarious at how one-dimensional and poorly he's written. For a while you get this build up of "he's cursed with immortality and wants to kill everyone because being immortal sucks" but then you find out he's like, in his 60's at best. Woah is me and my immortality, I've been cursed for all of 20 years. That's it. That's all he's got as a motivation. Even thinking about Zestiria's writing for a few minutes just gets me riled up.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 23:09 |
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Slio posted:Heldalf is hilarious at how one-dimensional and poorly he's written. For a while you get this build up of "he's cursed with immortality and wants to kill everyone because being immortal sucks" but then you find out he's like, in his 60's at best. Woah is me and my immortality, I've been cursed for all of 20 years. That's it. That's all he's got as a motivation. Zestiria's timeline just doesn't make any sense. For 4/5th of the game they talk as if everything was a long forgotten thing that happened hundreds if not thousands of years ago. And then nope, it was like fifteen years ago. It was just lazy, and I am talking here as someone who considers Zestiria one of the best Tales games.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 23:22 |
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Arkeus posted:Zestiria's timeline just doesn't make any sense. For 4/5th of the game they talk as if everything was a long forgotten thing that happened hundreds if not thousands of years ago. And then nope, it was like fifteen years ago. I think the timeline fuckery is from hasty rewrites and rears its ugly head most excessively with Rose/Dezel/Symonne and that prince of wherever who was evil or something and her being a princess/assassin/business leader multiclass. The whole "this is all ancient history" stuff felt much worse at the time to me, but give how far away even 2016 feels now, I can kind of buy that 20 years ago is all but forgotten to people who actively want it to be forgotten. I don't know that that was intended by the narrative, but that aspect hits different now, at least. I can't say I love Zestiria or consider it top rung though. What about the game do you like to rate it so highly? Genuinely curious, I'd like to see a positive perspective on it.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 23:30 |
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Arkeus posted:Zestiria's timeline just doesn't make any sense. For 4/5th of the game they talk as if everything was a long forgotten thing that happened hundreds if not thousands of years ago. And then nope, it was like fifteen years ago. God that stuff just killed me. Everything in the game up to Mayvin makes it like Shepards are ancient history, forgotten to time, but the last shepard lived less than two decades ago. Every single living adult should know who that Shepard was. It's the same with Heldalf, the portrait in Sergei's place makes it that Heldalf was some Ancient General, not like Literally the dude who taught Sergei or whatever. Berseria tries so hard to fix all the problems of Zestiria, but that time issue is just unfixable.
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# ? Apr 22, 2020 23:58 |
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i just remember that in the original drafts of xillia milla was meant to be like, soulless robot bent solely on doing justice and jude would help her get emotions, and all the female staff complained until she became an actual character. i wonder if some of the weirder beats with her are like, vestiges of that
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:09 |
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emeraude is a barely written villain whose entire arc happens in the span of a half hour and she dies as soon as she betrays you, and it owns plenty of tales games have had less memorable, more obnoxious bit villains whose writing was more drawn out and unsatisfying so in that respect i think emeraude is one of the best of that group
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:22 |
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Plus she has a fun battle theme
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:26 |
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Abyss is so loving good
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:33 |
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Arist posted:Abyss is so loving good
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:38 |
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Slio posted:God that stuff just killed me. Everything in the game up to Mayvin makes it like Shepards are ancient history, forgotten to time, but the last shepard lived less than two decades ago. Every single living adult should know who that Shepard was. It's the same with Heldalf, the portrait in Sergei's place makes it that Heldalf was some Ancient General, not like Literally the dude who taught Sergei or whatever. I mean a lot of what it does to "fix" it is just... countering it. Like
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:46 |
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i think it says something about zestiria that its plot is such an incoherent mess that the kinda cheap tie-in anime didn't even attempt to faithfully adapt it and just kinda went for being a fun fantasy adventure show with a moral that directly says the moral of the game was kind of weird
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:52 |
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Zestiria is already like 40% of a plot, and most of that plot is a flaming mess, and the few bits of it that are coherent are really hosed up.
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:54 |
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Goddamn I need to play Berseria again. The whole party is so good. It's the first game in the series since Abyss where I felt like every party member had a compelling arc from start to finish. Well except Bienfu I guess, but I don't think he counts.
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:56 |
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i like that the x goes generally more optimistic and softhearted with everything except it's way more willing to criticize rose and completely switches her role from awkwardly threatening to kill people but never actually doing it to, actually trying to kill alisha multiple times and hell it works way better and gives them grounds for the best dynamic in the story, lol. and then alisha is allowed to actually exist outside the bounds of sorey's journey in general. the x is both kind of a weirdly paced mess and somehow a much better and more enjoyable story than the game it's based off
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:57 |
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What helps with Van is even though is shown to have somewhat of a point he does die at the end of the game unlike assholes like Duke who were all for a genocide plan but for some reason were allowed to live.
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 00:58 |
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I really tried with Abyss. I'm not sure exactly how far through it I got but the last thing I remember is being down in the secret city on the inside of the planet sometime after the "let's move the whole population of the world down here" plan gets floated. Something about it just made me go eh nah thanks. I wouldn't call the writing "dated", but I did find the plot uncompelling and the characters impossible to feel invested in. Of the other games in the series I've played all the way through, I *loved* Phantasia and Symphonia and must have played them through like a half dozen times each when I was a teenager, and I thought Eternia was okay. Maybe I would've liked Abyss if I'd been able to check it out around the same time as the others, but I didn't give it a look until the 3DS version came out. Symphonia switch port already please
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 01:00 |
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# ? Apr 18, 2024 00:24 |
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The Colonel posted:i like that the x goes generally more optimistic and softhearted with everything except it's way more willing to criticize rose and completely switches her role from awkwardly threatening to kill people but never actually doing it to, actually trying to kill alisha multiple times I like that it gives Rose an actual character arc where she self-reflects and grows from an assassin to finding an actual reason to cooperate with Sorey, instead of just... already being jaded and as powerful as him and just standing in the background of all the Trials until she just decides to trust him implicitly at some point. It underlines how little Rose actually does in the game for how much everyone in the party talks her up as its heart. Anyway Van is like Artorius in that he has a coherent and understandable vision for how he wants to change the world, and his wife dying (it was Van's wife, right?) was just the catalyst that made him decide to take drastic measures. They're not like all the other space hitlers who are really just lashing out because they were sad once.
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# ? Apr 23, 2020 01:00 |