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Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I guess I just don't see where the comparison to Van is, because Van's whole thing was freeing everyone from a complacent existence in thrall to a Score indifferent to their suffering. He didn't think he knew best about peoples' fates - that's the exact thing he betrayed the Score-keepers for.

And as far as feelings and methods... Van was very much driven by both long-time despair and specific tragedies that pushed him to an extreme method of creating a fundamentally decent ideal. Fortuna is emotionless and dystopian from the get-go.

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Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008
Clever Betty
Van would kill literally every living person to let copies live free of the score's influence. That's... uh, kinda making the decision for them with regard to "knowing best" I think, in practice, if not in intent. It's a fair point that Van is a more relatable person, though. Fortuna's alien in a literal and figurative sense, and I think if there were more to her that would be a pretty compelling story -- she's under the impression that the purpose for her existence is to release people from something they'd never be able to overcome on their own. That was the parallel I was drawing with Van, but the way its approached is definitely very different, thinking about it more now.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I guess we're sort of in agreement here? In theory, Fortuna is interesting - a paper clip goddess who isn't wrong so much as configured incorrectly. It's just... you know, the game very clearly presents her as a strawman of the "we should improve quality of life somewhat" impulse for Kyle to fight with the power of self-determination and the willingness to die of preventable diseases.

The whole game is about how every time Fortuna "solves" a problem like hunger or childbirth, the inevitable outcome is either indolence or brave freedom fighters standing up to reclaim their ways and forcing her to get even more totalitarian. It's not interested in presenting any nuance other than 1) she wants to help people at scale 2) and that attitude is harmful.

(It's especially not interested in the gap between Nanaly, the libertarian ubermensch singlehandedly raising an entire island and making everything by hand, and Kyle, who was raised in a pretty decent standard of living for an orphanage with his own personal room and is constantly given free passes by everyone he meets, either for who his dad is or just for wanting it bad enough.)

Also this is without getting into how, in the game, this debate is presented by way of Reala going "hey can we talk about this a little" and Kyle shouting her down with "WHAT ARE YOU SAYING REALA THIS IS CLEARLY BAD BECAUSE I JUST DON'T LIKE IT" until eventually she just stops thinking about things entirely.

Caphi fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 26, 2020

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008
Clever Betty
That's probably a fair assessment of how it plays out in practice, yeah. It has been a long time since I last played it through, and I was definitely way more interested in Fortuna than Kyle, but I imagine that's probably self-evident at this point. :v:

I don't think that I particularly picked up on the anti-welfare undertones you're pointing to, but I don't trust my memory enough to claim that they aren't there. Everything about Nanaly's storyline just sort of takes it for granted that Elraine and Fortuna (by extension) are bad, even though I don't think that there's anything in particular the game does to show that. Nanaly's refusal to go to Aigrette for help because she doesn't want to have to worship Elraine's god ends up killing her brother, and that's treated as the sensible and right choice so ... :iiam:

Caphi posted:

Also this is without getting into how, in the game, this debate is presented by way of Reala going "hey can we talk about this a little" and Kyle shouting her down with "WHAT ARE YOU SAYING REALA THIS IS CLEARLY BAD BECAUSE I JUST DON'T LIKE IT" until eventually she just stops thinking about things entirely.

This I can't argue with at all. Destiny 2 is like Zestiria in a lot of ways, chiefly among them in that whatever its key points might be, they're not developed enough to really stand on their own.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
In both Aigrette and the trip through the alternate present, the theme is all the NPCs going "wow, life sure is great now that the great Elraine has made it so no one has to worry about working or going hungry" and the entire party clucking "okay, but... are they really happy?" And then Reala says "well..." and gets excoriated. In fact, she only stops having doubts after Elraine reveals that she's going to implement the Matrix.

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008
Clever Betty
I forget, is that the reason Darilsheid is ruined in the screwed up timeline? That indolence from their Fortuna-high just made it so they didn't notice that it had fallen to poo poo around them? I should play Destiny 2 again. Even if I end up hating the storyline with fresh eyes, I still think it'd be fun to watch Loni take hits from everyone and casually admit that basically every dunk that scores on him was basically true. And Harold's ... everything.

I think the past arc was pretty good, at least. The Swordians were a fun bunch.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I thought I'd enjoy the past arc because it's about Harold and she's the best character in the game simply because she doesn't give a gently caress about Kyle, but... then there was the part about Kyle arguing with Dymlos about rescuing Atwight which just felt whole layers of off somehow.

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer
So does Kyle have any redeeming features/interesting character growth or is he just a complete piece of poo poo through and through?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
He has informed growth... like, someone will correctly point out how he's being poo poo, he'll sulk, Reala will give him a pep talk, and then some time later the same character will be like "wow he's really grown."

He never gets any better towards Reala, though. She just gets more docile. I could argue that one of the personality traits Reala actually shows is being overly conciliatory but the game never suggests this is less than ideal.

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008
Clever Betty

Hunt11 posted:

So does Kyle have any redeeming features/interesting character growth or is he just a complete piece of poo poo through and through?

It's hard to fault Kyle for being childish and petulant because he acts like a dumb kid -- which he is. The game doesn't really ever do that along with you though, so a lot of the grievances about his character come from the writing just siding with him all the time at the expense of everyone else. Kyle rarely has a good reason for anything he suggests or does, but the game's main storyline backs him up every time. Save someone who died 1000 years ago at the expense of an army and the entire timeline? Sure, why not.

Why that instance and basically at no other time? :iiam:

Kyle and Reala are the weakest links, imo. The rest of the cast is pretty likeable, even if Nanaly has ... issues. Like I mentioned earlier, it's kinda like Zestiria -- the characters are pretty likeable (with 1-2 major exceptions) and the concepts are cool, if not the execution. Incidentally, execution is unique to ToD2, I think? It should come back.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
All right, while we're getting into the weeds here, let's be fair on one point. Atwight wasn't supposed to die yet, and saving her was protecting the timeline.

It's just, that's not the point. By which I mean there's a skit where someone (Judas, I think) points that out, and Kyle yells "that's not the point!" The point is that Kyle always goes with his gut and his gut is always right, which gives him the moral high ground over Dymlos Timber, who, ten minutes ago, everyone was going out of their way to say is a good commander beloved and trusted by the entire army specifically because he does not play favorites or allow emotions to compromise his judgment. And to back it up by having Reala then say "wow I know just how wonderful it is to have someone who will ride to your rescue."

It's a problem because the game is so committed to its two main prongs (Kyle/Reala good, Fortuna bad) that all the other content gets squeezed out, leaving it shallow even if you're here for its didactism. Because yeah, as usual, all the other characters are way better and more interesting - even Loni, who has the same "he's scum but at least it's a personality" thing Zelos has (and Nanaly fares much better than Sheena) - and they are increasingly relegated to light skit banter and being Kyle's cheerleaders. And to be clear, it's a step beyond simply the main characters being boring and taking over the game - the main characters are noxious and frustrating and they're taking over the game.

It's not even very good Destiny nostalgia. The plot is almost completely original, and all the returning characters are barely around and when they are they're also cheerleading. Even Leon, who is actually in the party. Its eggs are fully in the basket of taking their word for it that you should like Kyle simply because he's Stan's son (Rutee, of course, doesn't figure that much into it).

It's a bad RPG. I would call it worse than Symphonia, to the extent that it's more deliberately bad where Symphonia was just slapdash, which makes it more consistently bad.

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008
Clever Betty
At that point in the split timeline, I thought that the timeline they were in was the one that resulted in the Aether Wars getting won by Barbatos' faction, no? I mean, it's the bad timeline, but making the choice to save Atwight there would still destroy it. In the original version Barbatos was already dead at that point wasn't he? Or have I gotten things backwards? I thought the main thing that made him kidnap Atwight in the first place was that future-displaced Barbatos hated that she and Dymlos got to be heroes while nobody had ever even heard of him in Destiny 1's timeline.

I think Judas' place in the game is pretty good. His storyline retroactively makes Destiny 1 a little more interesting, fleshes out a character that was interesting but underserved -- which in turn is erased entirely by Destiny Remake changing enough of his storyline to make Destiny 2's Leon not make any sense. But that's time travel for ya. :v:

I do agree that Kyle and Reala's development is a detriment to the overall story, but I think the same thing happened with Sorey and Rose. The game is fixated on Kyle and his desire to be seen as a hero just like his father to an extent that it's almost as narrowly focused as Kyle himself is. I think in theory Kyle's growth as a person is meant to be reflected in him choosing to avoid more black and white decisions (like you can't give up freedom for happiness, and you can't give up love for revolution), but I don't think the writing is coherent enough to make those thematically hit like I think they're intended to.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

Although next time, you would be wise to heed the ancient Japanese proverb... phone first!
From what I heard Harold is at least entertaining and slightly Jade-esque (read: a troll) and fun, is that true?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Harold isn't cruel, she just aggressively doesn't give a poo poo about anything but her own priorities, which are mostly about demonstrating her own genius.

She owns.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010
Doesn’t she name herself Harold just to gently caress with historians who’d just assume she was a man? That kind of owns if so.

Samurai Sanders
Nov 4, 2003

Pillbug

Last Celebration posted:

Doesn’t she name herself Harold just to gently caress with historians who’d just assume she was a man? That kind of owns if so.
Yeah. She may be my favorite Tales character.

Edit: Tales sure has a long history of gender commentary. In Xillia just now, Jude was complaining that his personality wasn’t masculine enough and Mills was like, if there were only two kinds of personalities humanity would be pretty boring.

Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Oct 27, 2020

MagusofStars
Mar 31, 2012



I played Tales of Phantasia like two decades ago and found the combat system quite enjoyable and the overall story pretty well done, but haven't touched a Tales game since then and would like to give the series another shot in a couple weeks when I finish up with my current RPG. What's the best "entry point" to the series? Is there one game that's widely considered The Best and where I should start? I'm assuming it's like FF/DQ where each game is basically independent and you can jump in to any of the games without missing anything relevant from prior games.

Also, are the PC/Steam ports a reasonable way to play these games? Haven't bought a console in a decade, so hopefully the ports aren't total half-assed :effort:.

Namnesor
Jun 29, 2005

Dante's allowance - $100

MagusofStars posted:

I played Tales of Phantasia like two decades ago and found the combat system quite enjoyable and the overall story pretty well done, but haven't touched a Tales game since then and would like to give the series another shot in a couple weeks when I finish up with my current RPG. What's the best "entry point" to the series? Is there one game that's widely considered The Best and where I should start? I'm assuming it's like FF/DQ where each game is basically independent and you can jump in to any of the games without missing anything relevant from prior games.

Also, are the PC/Steam ports a reasonable way to play these games? Haven't bought a console in a decade, so hopefully the ports aren't total half-assed :effort:.

Going by what's available on PC, just go straight for Berseria. Beyond that, if you have access to a PS3, the Xillia duology are well-regarded, and Graces F has straight up the best battle system in the series and Bamco has made repeated mistakes trying to do different things with every Tales game after it.

After those, uh... Vesperia's okay? Abyss is good but your options for playing that are limited to PS2 or 3DS.

Avoid Zestiria.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Tales varies so much on every single part of the board that there is no "definitive" Tales or one that is strictly the most evolved form of the entire game. Xillia would be my pick outside of platform because it does everything Tales does decently and doesn't drop the ball too hard on any one thing. Berseria is the best one available on PC, but Vesperia may be more mechanically accessible. If you're willing to go retro, Eternia and Abyss are solid RPGs and you may find them more comfortable to play than a modern one to start with.

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008
Clever Betty

MagusofStars posted:

I played Tales of Phantasia like two decades ago and found the combat system quite enjoyable and the overall story pretty well done, but haven't touched a Tales game since then and would like to give the series another shot in a couple weeks when I finish up with my current RPG. What's the best "entry point" to the series? Is there one game that's widely considered The Best and where I should start? I'm assuming it's like FF/DQ where each game is basically independent and you can jump in to any of the games without missing anything relevant from prior games.

Also, are the PC/Steam ports a reasonable way to play these games? Haven't bought a console in a decade, so hopefully the ports aren't total half-assed :effort:.

The ports had some issues when they came out, but they've mostly been corrected and there are patches for any things that didn't quite get fixed that the community put together, so you should be fine there. There's no true "best" game that the community agrees upon 100%, but conventional wisdom usually throws out Vesperia, Symphonia, and the Abyss for first timers. For me it depends more on what you liked from Phantasia. The closest available to old school Phantasia's style would be Destiny (PS1) and Eternia (PS1, but called Destiny II in English). If you wanted to play them you should emulate them. Namco doesn't give a poo poo about letting you buy them legally, so neither do I. They run great on any modern system with any modern emulator.

From the Steam ports, I'd say Berseria's the best one. It's very unlike Phantasia in combat, presentation, and style (but you can still feel the Tales DNA in it), but is rather similar to other modern 3d Tales ofs. Symphonia's kind of the missing link between the 2d and 3d worlds, so if you're feeling nostalgic-but-not-THAT-nostalgic, that's a good choice too .

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010

The other ports are fine but symphonia, even after both official and fan patching, is still jank as hell.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.



I hope the next Tales game does something about Boss Mystic Arts, not that bosses shoulden't have super powerful attacks but from Xilla and onwards it just kinda feels like they can do them whenever and there isn't much you can do to stop it/reduce the damage so much.

Samurai Sanders
Nov 4, 2003

Pillbug

The Shame Boy posted:

I hope the next Tales game does something about Boss Mystic Arts, not that bosses shoulden't have super powerful attacks but from Xilla and onwards it just kinda feels like they can do them whenever and there isn't much you can do to stop it/reduce the damage so much.
Yeah, they need to make them more localized or something so they don’t just basically hit everyone at once.

It’s still not as bad as Radiata Stories where they are guaranteed to hit your main guy no matter where he is and to do a set amount of damage and if you have fewer hit points than that, game over.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

The Shame Boy posted:

I hope the next Tales game does something about Boss Mystic Arts, not that bosses shoulden't have super powerful attacks but from Xilla and onwards it just kinda feels like they can do them whenever and there isn't much you can do to stop it/reduce the damage so much.

If you watch solo videos they're actually very dodgeable. The problem is that when you have three AI members running around there's a good chance someone is gonna get hit.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

Amppelix posted:

The other ports are fine but symphonia, even after both official and fan patching, is still jank as hell.

it was never gonna be fixed tbh cause it's based off a bad port of a bad port, its issues seem pretty much baked into itself by now

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another spring commute
Yeah some madman put a ton of time into making a fan patch that kinda makes the port playable, but even then only so much. The definitively best way to play Symphonia on PC is via Dolphin with the fan-made high texture pack.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I played all of Symphonia on PC and the only problems I had with the game (other than the ones where it's just bad, anyway) were when I tried moving it to a bad computer and it slowed down a bit. There are also the bugs and typos that have always been there but I wouldn't call that "unplayable."

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!
it's not unplayable but there's. no real advantage to playing it. the ps2 version's content is all you get and the ps2 version's content is not that good

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another spring commute
You also lose the GC's 60 FPS battles which makes the combat feel really sluggish.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!
tbf tales of symphonia. already feels really sluggish.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Unless there's some sort of insane bug where dropping the FPS makes block pushing ten times slower I don't see how that would radically change the play experience tbh.

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another spring commute
I was only referring to the combat. The rest of the game is still a chore yes, up to and including having to deal with its dogshit story.

Samurai Sanders
Nov 4, 2003

Pillbug
Did Xillia 2 ever come out in English? I picked up a copy of it for 300 yen but I don’t know how good it will ultimately end up being. Has anyone played it?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
It did. Xillia 2's... alright? The original plot is pretty messy due to time travel/worldhopping contrivances and the silent protag deal doesn't really work, but it has a kid character who's actually pretty likable, Gaius and Muzet are great to have around, and Ludger's fun to play as even if he's overpowered as hell. Some of the gags don't really land either and Muzet's subplot mostly just makes her character worse which is a shame. But you know how dating sims get fan discs with some bonus sidestories and being able to date one of the side girls who didn't have a route in the original? If you think about Xillia 2 as a fandisc for Xillia, it basically works.

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008
The plot is really insanely bad to a degree that defies all sense. The combat ratchets up every number to idiotic levels (why the gently caress am I getting one-shot by basic artes on normal?!). Tons of small interface things are just screwed with making every part of the game just annoying to deal with.

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)

Endorph posted:

It did. Xillia 2's... alright? The original plot is pretty messy due to time travel/worldhopping contrivances and the silent protag deal doesn't really work, but it has a kid character who's actually pretty likable, Gaius and Muzet are great to have around, and Ludger's fun to play as even if he's overpowered as hell. Some of the gags don't really land either and Muzet's subplot mostly just makes her character worse which is a shame. But you know how dating sims get fan discs with some bonus sidestories and being able to date one of the side girls who didn't have a route in the original? If you think about Xillia 2 as a fandisc for Xillia, it basically works.

Is Alvin the side girl

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

McTimmy posted:

The combat ratchets up every number to idiotic levels (why the gently caress am I getting one-shot by basic artes on normal?!).
are you thinking of tales of zestiria because i never had that problem with xillia 2


Tired Moritz posted:

Is Alvin the side girl

yes

Samurai Sanders
Nov 4, 2003

Pillbug
Hmm...well, I guess I’ll try it for for a little bit more anyway.

I must be brain broken because I love listening to Elize’s muppet and want to hear more of it.

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008

Endorph posted:

are you thinking of tales of zestiria because i never had that problem with xillia 2


yes

I never even played Zesteria, so no.

Anything bonus is beyond batshit. I eventually couldn't even get through rounds of the coliseum because the damage and status got so out of line.

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Samurai Sanders posted:

Hmm...well, I guess I’ll try it for for a little bit more anyway.

I must be brain broken because I love listening to Elize’s muppet and want to hear more of it.
Teepo is honestly pretty great once you learn the Xillia 1 twist of him just saying whatever's on Elize's mind. It makes both her and him hilarious.

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