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wateyad
Nov 17, 2007

The power of the Outsider is

...dat ass


Amppelix posted:

but then why do they exist if they're bad

if you want a game with a different way of self-sustain don't put useless heal spells into it to trick people

Iím remembering a thing from an interview talking about how these games have a fan base thatís here for the characters and one thatís here for the combat and they want to let people just here for the characters mash through while still giving people here for the combat something to dig into. Having heal spells that act as a crutch on lower difficulties but suck on the higher ones you expect the players who like exploring more intricate systems and who can therefore be expected to figure out whatís actually supposed to be going on to be playing on makes an amount of sense from this perspective.

Honestly, being able to heal big chunks of health all in one go at little to no cost is a bad game mechanic if you even begin to care about any kind of balance at all. The Team Destiny combat guy clearly figured this out in Rebirth and has been trying to find a comfortable compromise with peopleís expectation that RPGs have healing spells ever since. Arise appears to have just said gently caress it and has a resource that as far as weíve seen seems to only be spent on healing.

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Hyper Inferno
Jun 11, 2015


And in multiplayer some people just want to focus on healing.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


In Zestiria the purpose of combat heals was to clear statuses which is why all the seraphim had a subset of things they could heal to make you pick the right one for the job. But then the whole seraph system was borked in multiple ways, so it just made healing weird. You can use it on enemies, too, and a couple of boss fights expect you to, but it's so unintuitive that if you don't forget, you're going to have a time sticking a status at exactly the right time.

Berseria still has that system but it's vestigial because you can just switch out, which makes even more people forget the gimmick to the Phoenix fight.

Re: CP - it's not clear how many mechanics it involves, but HP fuel tanks have been how Destiny games handled attrition pretty much from Destiny to Graces.

wateyad
Nov 17, 2007

The power of the Outsider is

...dat ass


Caphi posted:

Re: CP - it's not clear how many mechanics it involves, but HP fuel tanks have been how Destiny games handled attrition pretty much from Destiny to Graces.

The Eleth mixer and its predecessors were their games' equivalent food. Those three games all had straightforward healing spells that they just didn't let you use outside of combat because they had no way of restricting that. Arise also has a food mechanic of some description and "Here's your MP pool that only applies to healing spells" is new. This is definitely a step up from infinite healing spells in combat, none outside but if it weren't for them clearly trying to make it a thing with the healing NPCs thing we've seen I'd be saying that a reserve HP / healing surge type mechanic would feel less awkward to me despite not really being any less brute force of a solution.

Staltran
Jan 3, 2013



Fallen Rib

Caphi posted:

In Zestiria the purpose of combat heals was to clear statuses which is why all the seraphim had a subset of things they could heal to make you pick the right one for the job. But then the whole seraph system was borked in multiple ways, so it just made healing weird. You can use it on enemies, too, and a couple of boss fights expect you to, but it's so unintuitive that if you don't forget, you're going to have a time sticking a status at exactly the right time.

Berseria still has that system but it's vestigial because you can just switch out, which makes even more people forget the gimmick to the Phoenix fight.

Re: CP - it's not clear how many mechanics it involves, but HP fuel tanks have been how Destiny games handled attrition pretty much from Destiny to Graces.

Wait you can heal enemies in Zestiria? And you're supposed to do so to remove statuses from bosses??? I had no idea, but then again I beat most Zesty bosses by stacking the heal on guard skill and holding down guard until I was at full hp again whenever I got hit.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Staltran posted:

Wait you can heal enemies in Zestiria? And you're supposed to do so to remove statuses from bosses??? I had no idea, but then again I beat most Zesty bosses by stacking the heal on guard skill and holding down guard until I was at full hp again whenever I got hit.

No, the opposite. You were supposed to tag enemies with statuses according to their weaknesses to prevent them from healing. A couple bosses did this and it was the gimmick of undead enemies categorically.

wateyad posted:

The Eleth mixer and its predecessors were their games' equivalent food. Those three games all had straightforward healing spells that they just didn't let you use outside of combat because they had no way of restricting that. Arise also has a food mechanic of some description and "Here's your MP pool that only applies to healing spells" is new. This is definitely a step up from infinite healing spells in combat, none outside but if it weren't for them clearly trying to make it a thing with the healing NPCs thing we've seen I'd be saying that a reserve HP / healing surge type mechanic would feel less awkward to me despite not really being any less brute force of a solution.

What I mean is "Eleth but you can use it to advance sidequests/problem solve" would be a pretty neat new thing, though so is "this also limits your combat healing." We have yet to see how deep that system goes and how many things are tied into it. Also, you can regenerate it through combat somehow but what those hoops look like and how limited they are is also unclear. For all I know, it could be as simple as CP being the primary benefit of food, rather than eating going directly to HP.

Caphi fucked around with this message at 19:47 on May 13, 2021

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

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I mean I assume we'll still have Gels and Life Bottles to heal

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE


Oddly enough, apple gels heal a flat number now but as a fraction of HP that number starts out ludicrously high, like literally more HP than Shionne has.

Though in that segment of footage, First Aid is also basically a full heal so we're going to have to find out how healing as a whole works together.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

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120 days to go until it drops.

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Junpei posted:

120 days to go until it drops.

Is that confirmed global or just JP?

Phantasium
Dec 27, 2012



Everywhere else gets it a day later than Japan.

A Sometimes Food
Dec 8, 2010

I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING



Going back to jrpg ages. I did love that Etrian Odyssey game with the old lady model for the beastmaster class. So you just got this granny with a giant hawk.

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008


Clever Betty

That is one thing I hope the Tales games get one day. A granny, with or without a hawk. I don't care what form she takes, but my ideal would be a sweet healer type who had slow walking speed and nice buffs who, through the course of the game without anyone ever taking her advice and going to sleep early and changing their socks, got pissed enough to learn how to chuck out indignations and other zap-appropriate themed things like prism flasher or shining ray. Some of the lesser used ones that feel appropriately old timey at this point.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

REAL TOP DOG SHIT
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We've had plenty of healers with light-based magic. Rutee used water and ice. Shionne's gonna use fire. Elize used darkness.

I'd be down for a healer with lightning, wind, or earth magic.

Sharkitten
Jan 14, 2010



Has there actually ever been an old granny party member in any game

I can only think of grandpas

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Like any game ever?

Kreia in KotOR 2

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

REAL TOP DOG SHIT
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Junpei Is Not Ironic And That Is Why He Is Good

Niime from Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008


Clever Betty

Junpei posted:

We've had plenty of healers with light-based magic. Rutee used water and ice. Shionne's gonna use fire. Elize used darkness.

I'd be down for a healer with lightning, wind, or earth magic.

I mean, I know many healers get light spells, the point was more that that's probably the kind of granny we'd get if we ever got one.

Sharkitten posted:

Has there actually ever been an old granny party member in any game

I can only think of grandpas

If you ignore the Seraphim and other spirit type things, the oldest women are like, Ines, Magilou, and Harold? And I don't think you even break 70 if you add them together.

e: actually checked -- Mary is tied with Ines at 24, and Raine is tied with Harold's 23. Magilou is assumed to be in her late 20's, but I don't think we know for sure what that means.

Ershalim fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 23, 2021

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

REAL TOP DOG SHIT
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Ershalim posted:

I mean, I know many healers get light spells, the point was more that that's probably the kind of granny we'd get if we ever got one.

Oh I wasn't responding directly to you, I was speaking more generally about what I'd want

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008


Clever Betty

That's fair. I think a long while back we talked about stuff we'd want to see, so if I could get a zone-control Grandma who walked around placing shapes on the field like Annie to just make ragdoll effects happen that'd be great. But for whatever reason they're pretty reluctant to have older women around much at all, let alone as playable characters. Old ladies with speaking lines I think I can count on one hand? Musette, Baskerville, Grimoire (if she counts) ... uh ... Incarose, maybe if you're generous with definitions.

Some of them feel old, but explicitly aren't. Like Ines, Theresa, Hilda, Harold, Legretta; Elraine feels way older than she is since she's only 27 for example. But eh. I guess it's not important, really. Would love to see some more older women though. Particular if they're like, a cool grandma lesbian or something. A retired Mary in her 50s picks up her axe again kinda thing would be great. I mean, assuming they didn't just do that to kill her off...

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

the last time tales killed off a party member was zestiria and that got erased from the jedi archives via the anime

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


Junpei posted:

We've had plenty of healers with light-based magic. Rutee used water and ice. Shionne's gonna use fire. Elize used darkness.

I'd be down for a healer with lightning, wind, or earth magic.

Raven is our healer with wind magic

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008


Clever Betty

I guess it has been a long time since they really killed anyone off. But I think part of that is because if it's going to matter it'd need to be someone who was with the party a lot so we'd care, and we'd care more if it was a character who was actually playable -- but then if they get rid of playable characters that sucks cuz you lose out on a whole style of play. Unless they go the Zestiria route and make a clone, or the Destiny/Graces route and give you narikiri dolls to use instead.

Or do it at the very end of the game, I guess? But that might feel cheap.

I like what they did in Rebirth where after you've beaten the game once you can just unlock a grade shop item that lets you just use the whole party regardless of if they're around or not. Did it make any sense? Nope! Still fun tho.

Tired Moritz posted:

Raven is our healer with wind magic

Hisui, too.

Shiroc
May 16, 2009



I beat Tales of Vesperia PS4 tonight, nearly 12 years after quitting the 360 version in the room before the last boss. Just focusing on the main story, the game seemed to last like 25 hours longer than it really had anything interesting in the story or new in the gameplay? The only other Tales game I had played with Symphonia. Even though I was younger when I played that, I feel like it had a better pace in my memories than Vesperia. How do the other Tales games rank on length to interest? I like the overall style, just not for 45 hours.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

eternia's about 20-25 hours long even at the longest and has one of the best stories in the series, if you can deal with symphonia combat it's basically the same but in 2d

berseria's around 50 hours long, has a bit of a breather section around the middle but otherwise is a pretty tightly paced game, def way better than vesperia

tales of the abyss is around 40 hours long, plays about the same as vesperia and slows down a bit hard in act 3 but overall is also a much more tightly written game if you can deal with act 1 purposefully showing a lot of the cast at their worst as people. it shares a significant amount of dna with vesperia but it's a lot less disjointed as a whole, it sets up all the major beats of its narrative early on and it never really runs out of things it wants to do with its cast so you get good movement all the way to the ending aside from that aforementioned slower chunk at the start of act 3

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I don't remember how long Xillia actually was but I think the middle felt kinda draggy.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

xillia's pacing is rough, the first half of the game is solid but then things get rocky and act 3 is very truncated. most games after vesperia until berseria are kinda like that for many reasons. i don't think any of them outside zestiria drag as bad as vesperia though, but not games i'd rec for immaculate pacing

Shiroc
May 16, 2009



Vesperia seemed like it was just based around the scenario writer going "AND THEN" without any real concern for any of it really linking together. Its too bad because the characters were really fun and interesting for the first chunk before everyone stopped having anything to do other than get dragged along for the random new plot events. Like an anime that goes on for like 4 seasons longer than it should have.

Are any of the old good ones easy to get for current consoles? The next one comes out later this year?

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

your best options for eternia and abyss are a psp release of eternia and a 3ds release of abyss sadly. bamco's not been doing much to make the older games more available, they've still got a couple stranded on the vita

if you're ok going with berseria that's on ps4

and yeah vesperia's plot is... one of the messiest in the series probably. there are some tales games with janky writing but vesperia is almost unique in how badly it mishandles its cast and general progression, even some of the messier games after it are better at managing their cast. like graces f basically loses the thread on its plot entirely after a point but when it does that at least it just decides to make the rest of the game the party all dicking around together instead of throwing most of them to the curb

The Colonel fucked around with this message at 07:20 on May 25, 2021

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Graces is buoyed heavily by its cast being fun. Asbel is the most boring (as befitting most Tales protags) but eh, 5/6 (which goes to 6/7 in Future) of the cast being decent to solid isn't bad at all.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

i give asbel credit cause he's got the inverse problem of yuri, he's not a great character on a basic level but when the full party comes together he doesn't suck up too much air in the room and most of the writing around him basically just shifts to people prodding at him which is at least kinda funny

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008


Clever Betty

For current gen, your only options are Vesperia, Berseria, Symphonia (PC), and Zestiria. Also Abyss, I guess, if you count the 3DS as current. Of those, Berseria's the clear winner, and honestly has a solid narrative with good pacing for the most part imo. Abyss is good too, but I don't like handhelds much -- the PS2 version is better. Vesperia has a really good first and second act before it just kinda falls up its own rear end to bring home a message almost directly counter to the one it seemed to have been setting up. Plus that last dungeon is a slog. It's no Dycroft, but it's trying. Zestiria is like a whole three course meal, but it's not cooked. The good news is some of it's sushi, I guess? I found the story to be reaching into some neat areas, some cool ideas, and a good pile of some serious nonsense and bad storytelling.

Arise, the newest one, is looking to be a solid Tales from what little we've seen so far, an it's definitely had a long time to bake in the oven, so September 10th(ish depending on time zone) that'll be an option too. There's also a decent bunch of rumors about Tales of Destiny's remake getting remaster/port in the near future, but none of them are super trustworthy. That's one's pretty good, though, and there's a fan translation of it that just hit if you feel like emulating it. Since Bamco isn't really interested in keeping its backlog available you shouldn't feel bad about it if you go that route.

If you've got a PS3 you can hit up Graces (which is fun, but the story is kinda dumb at times) and the Xillias, which both have pacing problems, but are also fun. And if you're emulating there's patches or soon to be patches for Destiny R, Destiny 2, and Innocence. Of those probably Destiny R is the one to go with. And Eternia, as someone else mentioned. That one is old and you can definitely feel it, but it's honestly pretty great.

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



Asbel's a good straight man, which is all he needs to be. He's still incredibly boring, as he is a Standard Tales Protagonist, but he provides a niche that his party needs.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Isn't Cheria usually the Straight (wo)Man? Her role is mostly reacting to the more zany members of the group. Asbel is honestly just kinda Oblivious.

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008


Clever Betty

Hellioning posted:

Asbel's a good straight man, which is all he needs to be. He's still incredibly boring, as he is a Standard Tales Protagonist, but he provides a niche that his party needs.

I had a bit of trouble with Asbel as a character because of how unbelievably stupid he is. Like, he's not really written as especially dumb, but the choices he makes at like, 5 different instances where it matters are all very much, "wait, what the hell is wrong with you?"

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

controversially i think act 2 is where vesperia actively falls apart even long before act 3 just cause that entire chunk with alexei's magic plot ball jail is legitimately some of the most grating writing i've ever experienced in a jrpg

Ershalim posted:

I had a bit of trouble with Asbel as a character because of how unbelievably stupid he is. Like, he's not really written as especially dumb, but the choices he makes at like, 5 different instances where it matters are all very much, "wait, what the hell is wrong with you?"

graces is a game where you go to an alien planet and meet an alien scientist lady who pretends to be your friend for about an hour before going super evil satan mode, and then instantly exploding and dying i don't think anyone in that game is primed to make smart decisions

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I do appreciate that Hubert and Malik at least acknowledge to each other that Esmeralda is suspicious, but they'll keep an eye on her.

Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008


Clever Betty

The Colonel posted:

controversially i think act 2 is where vesperia actively falls apart even long before act 3 just cause that entire chunk with alexei's magic plot ball jail is legitimately some of the most grating writing i've ever experienced in a jrpg

I can see that, but for me the big letdowns don't happen til Yuri talks to Pharaoh and everyone says "Yuri's totally right, you're a bad mean bird thing" without ever even once considering the implications of everything Yuri's done prior to that or the parallels between systemic corruption and Estelle's existence being literal poison -- and then again when the unbending arm of justice and the "do anything to help people even if it breaks the system" just kinda go, "oh no, we're cool." without it having actually resolved any of that.

quote:

graces is a game where you go to an alien planet and meet an alien scientist lady who pretends to be your friend for about an hour before going super evil satan mode, and then instantly exploding and dying i don't think anyone in that game is primed to make smart decisions

unpopular opinion -- I really liked Emeraude as a character. There's not much to her, but she's petty, vindictive, and completely understandable in her actions. If senpai never noticed me I, too, would try to ingratiate myself to a pack of dipshits to become a goddess. But I know that's not a super common opinion.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

i don't mean any of what i say as a put down i love emeraude and all the dumb poo poo that happens in graces. consistently entertaining game

also tbh that stuff was being let down even before alexei's wacky crystal force field ball ride. like they pretty much already started ignoring everything about the core points the game was previously broaching midway into act 2

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Ershalim
Sep 22, 2008


Clever Betty

Oh, same. I love this series even when it's being campy or dumb or melodramatic. With the exception of a part of Zestiria that I am completely incapable of understanding despite having played it like 3 times in both languages at this point. Normally I can at least be like, "okay that was dumb, but I see where you were going with it." And I say this as a defender of Destiny 2's villains.

But like, the part where the timeline in Zestiria is all like, at most 17 years ago and Rose is a princess merchant queen assassin chosen, and all the wind riders are all dead because they invaded a castle or something and Simone sad-magicked them all into getting... magic depression and turning into demons or whatever? I can't follow it. At all. I have NO idea what happened with her backstory or what it was aiming at or anything. I fear I never will.

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