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szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Bitch Stewie posted:

30tb of Netapp with all licenses and support for €15k

Where do I sign-up? :D

Tbh, from what ehzorg has said I'm struggling to see the push for NAS or any kind of shared storage vs. something simple and centralised like a big old server full of disks?

A NAS or SAN, yep great if you need multi-protocol or shared access, but from his post it comes across as doing anything will be a struggle so it seems a bit of a jump going from USB HDD's on peoples desks to a full blown NAS/unified storage when nobody has really mentioned the options in between.

I suspect you'd get change from €10k for a Dell R510 stuffed full of 3tb 3.5" MDL SAS drives.

Two things: redundancy and scalability. 30TB which scales up to 100TB and can maintain storage bandwidth while, say, recovering RAID6 from a double-disk failure?
R510 won't really fit the bill here, I think.

The smallest would be two NX3000 NAS in a HA cluster + storage:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=brcsy2y&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&model_id=powervault-nx3000

A reseller can push it down to $10k or lower (last quarter!), all you need to add is an MD3xxx storage with lots of 1-2TB disks... I bet even with 4-hr support you can get it under $20k...?

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szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Just seen it linked somewhere else: http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/storage-soup/emc-customers-stung-by-hard-drive-shortages/

quote:

“EMC has absorbed the price increases that have been passed on to us and will continue to do so through the end of the month,” Teuber wrote. “Unfortunately we will not be able to sustain that practice. Beginning in Q1 2012 we will be increasing the list price of hard disk drives up to 15% for an indefinite period of time. While we hope that this increase is temporary, at this time we cannot forecast how long the flooding in Thailand will impact HDD [hard disk drive] pricing.”

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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luminalflux posted:

This is also true of HP LeftHand systems.

Same true for Dell EqualLogic: it phones home automatically and you'll get the replacement part within hours (provided you have decent support, not just the free NBD) as well as a cal lto arrange service technician (if you need it.)

That being said mine is small IT team and this "phone home" is off but we pay attention and catch everything - using other monitoring tools (it might also helps that I arranged all the rack cabinets behind a glass wall facing the main entrance corridor so when people come and go they see al the lights... :D)

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Internet Explorer posted:

Like I said, I support a medium sized company and I handle pretty much everything, from SAN implementation to printer jams. The times I have contacted support took me about 4-5 hours of jumping from tech to tech and then piecing together what they all had to say, because none of them could figure it out. One of my coworkers has been out for 2 weeks and with the holidays, things are a bit busier and I don't have 4-5 hours to play with.

That's clearly nonsense, I agree. You paid for your support, it shouldn't take more than one support person to handle your case.
When we have a problem with our EqualLogic box and I'm out, my sysadmin-in-training (no clue about storage systems beyond what I taught him) simply calls Dell Enterprise Support, ask for an EQL tech and he gets someone on the line who can give him proper support incl. hands-on via Webex. If the tech needs an analyst then he sends our diag output to one and he gets back to us in an hour or so but if it's an emergency he immediately gets someone on the line straight from New Hampshire and they start working on it via Webex. If a part is needed it's usually here in less than two hours, followed by a tech to install it in less than an hour (if I'm here we cancel this), all arranged by someone calling us back all the time (email updates are always coming.) The tech who opened the case (took the first call) remains engaged all the way to the end, he's the single point of contact, he follows through with all updates and requests feedback until we say it's OK to close the case.
I don't remember the full price but I don't think this "3-y 24/7 4-hr on-site mission critical" (or whatever it's called) package was more than a grand or two...

...and yes, setting up the array from zero to connecting to the first LUN via iSCSI took me literally 40-45 minutes back when I received it (yes, I did wire up all the switches, hosts etc beforehand.)
I haven't tested anything from EMC since our long-gone Symmetrix monsters but as far as I heard it's still not the case with current EMC units, right?

I realize that ours is a smaller setup (PS6510 + a two-node 2008 R2 96-core cluster w/ 15-20 VMs and two node Storage Server 2008 cluster for file servers, all running on 10GbE) but a bigger, more complex setup also means more support costs so resources for support should scale up in a linear fashion.

quote:

Honestly, it sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about. But don't let that stop you from hopping in for a quick quip.

Aye, it's quite normal as far as I can tell...

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Internet Explorer posted:

Return it and get an Equallogic SAN. If you're not a storage guy and you are going to be supporting the SAN, stay the hell away from EMC.

THIS. Downside is that if he wants NAS features he still needs a server on front of the EQL SAN (unless he buys an EQL FS7500 NAS box as well.)

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Anyone with knowledge about Compellent's Data Progression feature? How does it work, policies/period/chunk etc?

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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ILikeVoltron posted:

It marks used blocks and progresses them either up or down tiers (sometimes just a raid level)

It usually kicks off around 7-10pm depending on how you set it up. I've worked with their equipment for around 5 years, know several of their support staff and am currently upgrading to some newer controllers, so I can likely answer any of your questions about their equipment.

Awesome, thank you. :) You mentioned this 7-10PM - what happens if I have multiple workflow changes throughout the day? What's the shortest sampling period for this tiering algorithm eg can I set it to check eveyr 4 hours or even smaller?

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Serfer posted:

Not the series 50 that is coming out at some point soon? (When does this NDA expire?)

You mean the new ones, built on Dell servers? Summer, as I heard... at least that's what I was told recently by Dell/Compellent. I just got a nice setup offered, 24x200GB SSD for tier1 (around 3TB configured) and 12x15k for tier2 (~5TB configured) but there is not even a remote chance for any new Series 50 to get.


KS posted:

Be sure you buy series 40 controllers. They will last you a lot longer.

I think it's a bigger deal that they finally announced Storage Center 6.0, their first 64-bit OS: they doubled the cache (RAM, that is) in the controllers, effective immediately as I heard and, more importantly, they will be able to use smaller block size for data progression (current is 512k I think.)

What I'm really interested in is when they will be able to tier data among other Dell storage boxes eg EqualLogic? They are saying it's a year away but I hope Dell is putting more engineers on this project because it would be a killer feature...

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Mierdaan posted:

A bloo bloo bloo, this is my life.

Thankfully we get to buy some Compellent this year.

Have you got any of your gear yet? I'm in the process of getting my quotes in and I'm curious what do you think... I'm concerned that Compellent is still built on Server 2008 R2 file servers.

Besides of not having a fast storage tier my biggest PITA is the NAS layer: Windows CIFS is just pure, oozing poo poo. Really, utter poo poo.
Whatever you try to use it will destroy performance with its stupid crap 4k and smaller IO sizes: I tried custom-tailor our compositing tools to use large IOs and when I look at the other side (couple of Dell NX3000 NAS, Fusion-IO card's mgmt software) it's not only re-buffering all the time (you can see the load going up then falling back to zero, only to start again) but all very small ones, 3k-4k max...

When I tested Server 8 w/ Windows 8 it seemed to work better, even a file copy over gigabit was stable at 115-120MB/s which is a lot more impressive than what I've ever seen from any Windows-Windows networking.
Problem is even if I don't get to spend $100k+ on Compellent (=no way to bug the hell out of their support to optimize the NAS layer) and I'd just buy another EQL full of SSDs eg PS6110S* or, ad absurdum, a bunch of SSD or RAM-based cards and stack them into my NAs units it still won't help me as long as I go through Windows Server's uber-lovely CIFS. :(

drat EMC, they bought Isilon...

*: EQL PS6110 is just around the corner (new 24-slot PS6100-series chassis w/ 10GbE), all-SSD version is supposedly coming with 400GB drives.

szlevi fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Jan 14, 2012

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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FYI ElReg posted a summary of the Swedish EMC cockup: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/13/tieto_emc_crash/

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Bluecobra posted:

What controller are you talking about? I saw our SC40 boot up from the serial console before and it looked like it was running some flavor of BSD.

I'm talking about their NAS fronts: they are standard Dell NX3000 boxes except they actually run Storage Server 2008 R2 as opposed to Dell's Storage Server 2008 (they canceled their R2 upgrade when NX3500 cluster variations got under way - though Windows-based NAS cluster is already officially dead IIRC.)

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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three posted:

The controllers are BSD based.


Well, I think they are some linux-fork, at least according to my sales guy who's a pre-Dell employee. I asked them specifically about it and I got linux every single time I have asked, pointing out if they are part of the BSD-crowd like most SAN vendors...

...it would be interesting to learn he's wrong though. :)

quote:

I think their zNAS is too, since it uses ZFS.

They are not even suggesting it if you run Windows network, they tell you straight up "you don't want that" and should get WSS ones.

quote:

They're coming out with a new NAS head equivalent to what was just released for the EQL soon (http://www.equallogic.com/products/default.aspx?id=10465).

Wow, that would make a LOT of sense, especially w/ 10GbE front end (FS7500 is gigabit only. :()
Just when do you think it will be introduced? March-May?

szlevi fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Jan 15, 2012

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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three posted:

You might be right. I thought they were BSD-based like the Equallogic.

I think the NAS head is due later this year. If you have a Dell rep, they may be able to pinpoint it to a specific Quarter.

Got it, thank you (I was told it's going to be Q2.)
Also confirmed: they are on track releasing the 10-gig flavor of the new PS6100-series (2.5"-line of EQL chassis) in March.

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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KS posted:

It is definitely a bigger deal, but it requires series 40 or better controllers at the moment, hence my recommendation. 512k is the smallest page size -- the default is 2mb.

Ah, OK.

quote:

6.0 also adds full VAAI support which is nice.

I'm sure it is but I'm an MS cluster shop. :)

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Aye, Broadcom iSOE is a total junk, even EQL support agreed with me.

As forr TOE et al I never noticed any difference on qny of my server.

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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:allears:

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Has anyone heard of Avere Systems? Looks like some NAS accelerator...?
Apparently recent (~3 years old), founded by a bunch of former NetApp, Spinakker and Compellent head honcho: http://www.averesystems.com/AboutUs_ManagementTeam.aspx
Heard about it around 2010 (Siggraph?) but never got around reading up on them...

szlevi fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Jan 23, 2012

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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It's kind of a moot point now that they're shipping the new 64-bit v6.0 but isn't this "limited" RAM is what the controllers are using as cache? Because if it is then having a much larger one *could* make a difference in certain scenarios.

szlevi fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jan 24, 2012

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Intraveinous posted:

The Supermicro controllers were the easier of the parts to rack. The Disk Enclosures are OEM'd by Xyratex, who make enclosures for a wide array of different vendors out there. Info here (yeah, it's a few years old and things have likely changed) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/02/xyratex_sff_arrays/.

It was definitely an annoyance at first, but once I'd done one, the others weren't that hard. I don't base the worth of something on how easy it is to rack.

EDIT: I was behind a bit in the thread and didn't notice SC 6.0 release had already been talked about.

New, Dell-based Compellent boxes are on their way, slated for Summer release.

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Besides these well-documented corruption/bit rot/etc problems of RAID5 there's the RTO issue: with today's huge drives a resync can take days, giving a much bigger window for another drive to fail during the process...

And on top of this you have to factor in vendor-induced issues: recently we had a rush of SATA drive failures in our EQL PS6510E, even went through a double-disk failure and only after several calls EQL support admitted that there might be something fishy going on in their latest firmware and we should watch out for the new update, slated for late January-early February that should fix it.

szlevi fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jan 25, 2012

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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OOPS: Microsoft Adds Data Deduplication to NTFS in Windows 8

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Intraveinous posted:

While I agree with you fully in principle, the fact that Apple was able to make a change isn't really all that telling. Since Apple has complete control over the entirety of the environment on both hardware and software, it should be a lot easier for them to do than someone like MS trying to make sure it will work on every possible configuration out there from umpteen vendors.

Yeah, Apple by default treats its customers like poo poo so they really didn't care what they think. At all.

quote:

ReFS is the one that was supposed to be in Windows 2008, then 2008 R2, and now Windows 8 (if it doesn't get cut again), right?


Nah, it's WAAAAAAY older than that.
The story starts in the 90s, with a supposedly information-centered next-gen Microsoft OS, dreamed up by none other than Gates himself, code named Cairo if I remember correctly... and it was to be built on a brand new object-based file system - I remember hearing about a new, next-gen fs in a class back in the 90s that relies on object metadata, supposedly coming in the next NT, version 5 (today known as Windows 2000)...

...which never happened.

But the file system idea did stick and it's got a budget and was subsequently named WinFS and promised that even though it won't come in the soon-to-be-released first unified new OS (Windows XP, that is), it will be in the next one, called Longhorn, along with Microsoft Business Framework (MBF) etc: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/theil/archive/2004/05/24/139961.aspx

http://weblogs.asp.net/aaguiar/archive/2004/08/28/221881.aspx
Then we heard specs and features have been really scaled back...


...it was merged with ObjectSpaces: http://www.alexthissen.nl/blogs/main/archive/2004/05/22/word-is-out-objectspaces-to-be-merged-with-winfs.aspx

...and then rumors about being delayed again, nothing in Longhorn and a lot of denial.
Shortly after the denials, of course, eventually came the admission that indeed, nothing will debut in Longhorn: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/Aug04/08-27Target2006PR.mspx

Despite a lot of nerd talk about future this was obviously a death sentence for WinFS and MBF - and couple of years everything was scrapped.
MBF was gone in as little as one year:
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/operating_systems/microsoft_scuttles_plans_for_standalone_microsoft_business_framework.html

WinFS died in June 2006, very unceremoniously, in a simple blog post: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/winfs/archive/2006/06/23/644706.aspx

Whatever useful left was scrapped and worked into SQL Server 2008, that's it.

A classic MS-sized fuckup, spanning a decade or more.

szlevi fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jan 26, 2012

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Wicaeed posted:

Ah, I figured it out. I had to disconnect all the current sessions and reconnect, then rescan for disks to see the newly created LUN

drat Microsoft, drat!

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Hah, I found some awesome relic on YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPqKvp0OWoM&feature=player_embedded!

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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FISHMANPET posted:

Is it bad that I want to punch that kid in the face?

:D

TBH I was more annoyed by his utter junk mouse/touch/ball/whatever pointer device that clicks louder than a hard drive after servo failure.

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Combat Pretzel posted:

Not to spoil your ReFS bickering, but Cairo and WinFS have poo poo to do with ReFS.

You didn't spoil anything because you clearly didn't get the point.

quote:

Cairo and WinFS were supposed to be object stores. Not sure what the plan for Cairo was, being that old, but WinFS wasn't even a filesystem. It was a masked SQL Server instance with some ORM, running a bunch of database files hidden away in C:\System Volume Information. Two of the biggest reasons it failed was because they couldn't get FileStreams out on time in SQL Server back then, and that its WinFS' main APIs were pretty much only .NET. If something like WinRT would have existed back then, it'd have made more sense, seeing how .NET established itself for consumer application development (note: not really).

What you're talking about here is the last iteration before it's got whacked - but, as I wrote, WinFS started out well before that, as a fs (hence its name, y'know.)

quote:

Anyway, ReFS is just a block filesystem like NTFS. Same upper level APIs, different on-disk format. It's completely B+ tree now and can do copy-on-write. As far as the other cut features go, I figure those that still make sense will slowly be added back. One of the reasons why it won't ship to the client yet.

yeah, it's a rather crappy patched-up NTFS - but it's still the same idea except now they make even less effort to solve their inherent disadvantages when it comes to managing data; they just make some bulletpoint changes and that's it.

It will go through at least 2 more generations before it gets usable and by then who knows where the world will be...

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Combat Pretzel posted:

What point? You were equating it to the efforts of Cairo and WinFS. Which makes no sense, since it's not remotely comparable. ReFS isn't trying to be anything else than a block filesystem.

The FS stood for future storage when it was unveiled ages after Cairo. There never was any other on-disk format than NTFS in play, as far as what's known in public.

As for Cairo OFS, there's no public information how its development versions were implemented at all. Might just have been a similar layer on top of traditional NTFS as well.

OK, let me reiterate again: the purpose of all these gymnastics was and still is to provide better management of the information.
The whole point in OFS (Cairo) was to introduce an object-based system and while WinFS was not a replacement in any way the aim of its development was focusing on the same thing (ie information management.)

quote:

--fake edit: If I am to believe Wikipedia, their object store attempts were almost all based on SQL Server since at least 1995. So yeah, NTFS all the way.

Since you seem to be big on Wikipedia (I don't really trust it any more than a blog entry) here's your relevant part: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFS#Development
[/i]"The development of WinFS is an extension to a feature which was initially planned in the early 1990s. Dubbed Object File System, it was supposed to be included as part of Cairo. OFS was supposed to have powerful data aggregation features,[12] but the Cairo project was shelved, and with it OFS. However, later during the development of COM, a storage system, called Storage+, based on then-upcoming SQL Server 8.0, was planned, which was slated to offer similar aggregation features.[12] This, too, never materialized, and a similar technology, Relational File System (RFS), was conceived to be launched with SQL Server 2000.[12]However, SQL Server 2000 ended up being a minor upgrade to SQL Server 7.0 and RFS was not implemented. But the concept was not scrapped.[12] It just morphed into WinFS."[/i]

Happy now? :)

quote:

Unless I'm missing something, every filesystem actually in use works practically the same. Hierarchically organized unstructured streams. If other semantics were of advantage over that, there would have been some big solutions established by now, if only in open source space.

Let me guess, you have not seen any object-based storage system... but if you have seen then please explain how they would work running NTFS and why that's not possible... :P

quote:

Maybe I'm not seeing it, but latest developments in filesystems, like ZFS and BTRFS, don't attempt to be different.

You mean except the fact that NTFS lacks almost all the features of the other ones?

quote:

So I'm not sure what you mean by managing data. In what way does NTFS have disadvantages?

Are you serious? No volume management, no RAID, no checksums whatsoever etc etc?

FYI unless you're some MS shill it should be common knowledge just how far NTFS is behind them but at any rate it's pretty simple to answer yourself just by using Google.

quote:

Probably the same place where it is now. Just with flashier UIs. If Microsoft doesn't pull another Longhorn, 2 generation's pretty much just 6 years. Since they've announced a three year cadence in Windows development.

I am not sure if I understand your PoV - these announcements have nothing to do with UI, my comment was about the fact that MS really lags behind others and very slow to roll out new features and new versions.

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Q: I'm running a 2008 R2 cluster (Hyper-V), what's the best practice to create & run a handful of identical VMs?

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Martytoof posted:

Did you perhaps mean to ask your question in here?

Oh sure, thanks (don't know how did I miss that.)

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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madsushi posted:

Rolling your own SAN might become more viable after this release: ONTAP-V finally coming out!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/netapp_ontapv/

I was coming to post it.. :)

How much is it going to be?

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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DDN is attacking in the midrange: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2012/03/26/ddn_sfa10k_m/

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Anyone heard of XtremIO?

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Internet Explorer posted:

Do you mean an Equallogic PS4100E?

If so, I have experience with their arrays and management software, but not with NetApp or Nimble. I will say that the E means it is using SATA (or 7.2k SAS, whatever you want to call it). Just make sure you are getting enough IOPS.

On the management side, I love their software. It really could not be any easier to use. Their arrays are entirely "virtual storage." You basically say, I want X amount of disks in RAID50 and Y amount in RAID10, or I want all disks in RAID10, and it does the rest. When you make a LUN it is basically like making a partition. The array does all the work and will automatically balance it all in the best way it can.

SANHQ is software that comes with, just like everything else Equallogic, and allows for a very easy and granular look at what is going on. I don't know about NetApp or Nimble, but it completely blows EMC's Unisphere Analyzer out of the water. Snapshots and replication are extremely easy to set up. MPIO is also very easy.

I absolutely loved my Equallogic array. The only issue was you had to buy the unit completely filled, and if you wanted to add more IOPS or Storage you had to add a whole new array. In my company that is difficult because they would just put it off over and over again. With my VNX I can say "this new project requires X space and Y IOPs, we need to add Z disks." You cannot get that granular with Equallogic.

If you do not have a dedicated storage admin or time to mess around with your SAN all day, I cannot recommend Equallogic enough.

I can second all this, EQL's stack is my new measurement stick ever since I bought our PS6510E.

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Aniki posted:

It looks like NetApp and CDW are starting to provide some solutions on price. It looks like they included a $5,000 installation fee, which I'll see if they can waive or heavily discount, otherwise I don't see why we couldn't set it up ourselves. They also mentioned including some training vouchers, so I assume that we could use those or their general support for any questions during the setup. That would bring us down from $34k to $29k and if we hold off on some virtualization specific software, which we probably aren't going to need right away, then that would bring it down to $26k. That being said, I would like to just get all of the software included, but I need to wait and see how much they budge.

This is why I hate Netapp, EMC etc, for this BS nickel-and-diming on features - and this is exactly the main reason why I went with EqualLogic last time and I will always go with all-inclusive vendors only: all features are available from day 1, no ripoff prices later, after I already bought into the system.

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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NippleFloss posted:

NetApp and EMC have arrays that do FC, iSCSI, nfs, CIFS and fcoe, support a lot application integration features, multiple replication types and both scale up and scale out architectures.

All inclusive pricing doesn't make sense when your product range is that broad as you end up heavily penalizing customers who don't use half of what they end up paying for.

Equallogic is relatively niche, by comparison, which means they can price things differently.

Well, except everybody is trying to imitate them now, look at VNX pricing...

And we both now the same feature on a lower-end product costs a lot less eg Netapp so it's really nothing else but simply raping their customers.

Ohh and that 'niche' EqualLogic is actually the #1 iSCSI vendor. :)

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Bitch Stewie posted:

I've read several times that Equallogic aren't #1 in iSCSI because they do everything better than everyone else, they're #1 because it's all-inclusive so you know exactly what you're getting.

Well, it's pretty much impossible to do everything better than anyone especially continuously but they are doing the most important things better than anyone else ie the management-monitoring-pricing triumvirate sits on the top of every shopper's checklist.

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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http://virtualgeek.typepad.com/virtual_geek/2012/05/isilon-x400-and-mavericks.html

Has anyone seen this Mavericks yet? I don't mean NDA-capped details - though I'd welcome them too :D - but in general, how is it different?

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Pantology posted:

To be fair, it's an internal cheerleading video made for EMCWorld, not a real marketing campaign. Doesn't make it any less terrible, though.

Best comment under this abomination:

"white people - the video"

:D :D :D

szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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xarph posted:

Never forget Mr. T shilling for HDS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1S2tsxVHg

As far as rapping goes Hitachi's evergreen "Hard Drive Is The New Bling" is still unbeatable in my eyes: http://www.hgst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/23E2C1A0961EB5618625706F0057A63C

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szlevi
Sep 10, 2010

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Misogynist posted:

Trying not to be that guy, but IOPS isn't plural.

:D ".75 to 1 IO per per user"

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