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skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


JollyRancher posted:

You need to get some professional services people in there to troubleshoot. With that kind of hardware it's pretty clear you should have the budget to make that problem go away.

The cost in lost performance should easily force someone to write a check for an HP/Cisco guy to come out and pimp your rig.

Nah nah, gently caress that, with that kind of kit you call your HP account manager up and say WHAT THE gently caress get someone out here right now. Enterprise IT can be a small world and one or two high level IT guys badmouthing expensive kit gets spread around pretty quick. It's in HP's best interest to take care of you post haste.

:buddy: Oh you hear so and so over at xyz INC just deployed a couple of EVA8100's?

:v:Yeah? I was thinking about those, the HP guys keep trying to sell me on them..

:buddy: Well he says they loving suck and stay away...

:v: Well I'll NetApp and EMC bid the job then.


A bad experience with a company can seriously sour an experience.. Hell we had some issue with Dell servers 5 years ago and we still won't touch them with a 10 foot pole even though the newer poweredge's are pretty nice. A call to your account manager should help get the ball rolling, if it doesn't go above them.


edit:

KS posted:

It sounds like you have not experienced the joys of working for the government.

Oh.... :smith:

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skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


rage-saq posted:

What kind of features? How many hosts? What kind of disk configuration?
HP has a really great lineup with the MSA2000. There is an FC model, iSCSI model and SAS (still a SAN, think FC without FC) model with both single and dual controller/fabric versions and they are all pretty awesome from a management and price/performance standpoint.

I just bought a MSA2012 iSCSI dual controller with 12 300GB 15K SAS drives with all the warranties etc for right around 15K. Word of warning though, the UI is strictly IE only. Ours locks up if it sees firefox. I don't manage the thing, the engineers do, but they seem to like it.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Vanilla posted:

I'm really getting into the VDI stuff personally.

Though my environment would never justify the costs, VDI is loving awesome. I can't wait to see what they do with laptops. eWeek had a neat article about hypervisors running on laptops.. With an extremely blurry line between personal and business use of laptops, there's only so much NAC, whitelisting, etc you can do without frustrating IT and your users...

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


bmoyles posted:

Say you need 100TB of storage, nothing super fast or expensive, but easily expandable and preferably managed as a single unit. Think archival-type storage, with content added frequently, but retrieved much less frequently, especially as time goes on. What do you go for these days?


How much money do you have? How Expandable? What kinds of interfaces do you want? How redundant?

Tons of questions to answer.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


You could do a coraid etherdrive setup... 5x 24TB shelves would work... and come out to way less than 100K, and it's supposedly unlimited expandability.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


I'm helping some engineers out setting up a scalability lab to test some of our software products, we're looking at a SAN to use for an oracle 11g DB.

At the max we'll have 5 DL380's connected via FC or 10GigE to it. Right now We're considering 5.4TB raw on either a:

EMC CX4 FC
LeftHand P4xxx 10Gig


I'm also willing to look at a EqualLogic solution, or NetApp 2050, but the NetApp will probably be cost prohibitive.

Anyone have any pro's or con's to these units? Budget is up to 50K, maybe 60. I get aggressive pricing from my VAR's. The CX4 is borderline our max price range and an AX4 might be a better fit, but doesn't offer 10Gig. Drives need to be 15K SAS or FC

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


rage-saq posted:

Just get another LeftHand node, that way you can use your existing LeftHand stuff for secondary storage / backups / etc. Its a good platform and if your infrastructure is right it will perform more than adequately for the kind of environment you are talking about.

This is what I would probably do. The new G2's just came out, and we got some really impressive pricing on them.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Cyberdud posted:

My company wants to consolidate their data (and VMs) and i've been put in charge of the project.

There's so many choices out there and the bugget i was given is limited.

What do you suggest for a small company who wants around 2-4 Tb that can survive one drive failure.

We are talking about around 10 VMs being ran by two VMware servers. And how much is it going to cost me?

What kind of budget?

This could cost 10K or 200K, depends on the companies needs, tolerance for downtime, budget, and skill set.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Jadus posted:

I had thought this may have been more common with SAN hardware; it's hard to imagine companies dropping $50k or more every 5 years to replace hardware that will most likely run for another 5 years without issue (excluding hard drive replacements).

50K ? We spent a quarter of a million dollars on a full NetApp 3020 setup that we've now pushed to capacity not but 2.5 or 3 years ago. We're looking at a complete 'forklift upgrade' of our SAN and I don't even want to know what its going to cost. Probably at least 500K if we go NetApp again.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Yeah, you guys both have good advice. I'm not the storage guy, all this is back at corporate HQ. I'm pretty sure that 250K we spent was on 2 3020's. 150K for one, 100K for the other. I know we've maxed out the SATA and FC shelves on one of them.

We've got a lab environment where we went with LeftHand gear, seems pretty cool, although I don't admin that either.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


It's not uncommon to get 40% off list or more. Especially if you hit them at the end of the quarter and are ready to buy now.

I've got a bit of a conundrum... A satellite office of engineers needs some major storage. They have ~960GB right now and use every bit of it. I'm looking at getting them about 4TB or so.

The status quo in my company would be to load up a DL380G7 with 16 * 600GB 10K drives. This is extremely expensive and it's really pointless to use that size server for what's basically a storage box.

We're an HP shop, so ordering Dell kit is unlikely. I've been thinking a smaller DL360 and attached MSA60 or 70. What are some other options I should be considering?

skipdogg fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Oct 29, 2010

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


15K would probably be as much as I could spent to be honest for something like this. I'd love to throw a couple of LeftHand nodes up there, but I can't win that argument.

I can win the 'why spend 14K on a stand alone server when we could just buy this and have more storage, more expandability options, etc etc" 7.2TB of LeftHand would run me about 25K :(

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Bluecobra posted:

Well you have until November 9th to place the order. :) Part of the issue is that the X4500/X4540 are AMD-based and Oracle wants to go all Intel now. I have no idea why they didn't come out an Intel version on the Thumper/Thor but it is probably because they can squeeze out fatter margins with the Unifed Storage line. I used to be the biggest defender of Sun, but ever since Oracle took over they have been doing everything in their power to drive me away in disgust.

This sucks. I've got a big project coming up with my engineering team, we basically need to certify our software on Sun hardware for a client and am getting ready to buy some fully decked out T2000 and M4000 series servers. I had a quote from Sun, but it was only good until the Oracle deal closed. Not looking forward to getting a new quote after reading this.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


H110Hawk posted:

Precisely. The big problem was he was clicking and not calling. :) Make an account, if you are a real company go ahead and establish a line of credit with them once you have an initial quote. The price might drop, and Net30 is always preferable to paying cash up front.

There will come a time on the phone call when, in a very serious tone, your rep is going to say how he has to get special approval for any further discounts. It will all sound very foreboding. The appropriate response is "Ok, when should I expect the updated pricing?" It will be 2-3 business days.

Also, reading the above post just cost you $2,000 in my consulting fee.

If you're a smaller company, try going through a VAR. I'm in a large enough company my discount is better than my VAR's, but for many small businesses his discount is much larger than Joe Inc. calling up and setting something up with Dell.

Xenomorph posted:

I have a Premier account and a rep's number (somewhere). It's just after reading Apple's announcement this morning (Xserve is DEAD), I simply hit Dell.com looking for a price estimate.

I'll call/email them about Tuesday or something.

But, is Fibre Channel still a good option?

Fibre Channel for physical disks in the computer? Not really necessary. SAS 6G disks are out and should do just fine for what you want to do.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Any Compellent users? Opinions?

edit: it's for a lab environment, our dev's want complete control over drive assignment, something our LeftHand P4300 boxes don't let them do.

skipdogg fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 15, 2010

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


adorai posted:

The sales engineer i spoke to about a year ago could not have possibly more condescending.

My VAR just complained about not being able to get ahold of his rep today. He bitched all the way up to the regional manager. I'm sure he ruffled some feathers in the process.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


conntrack posted:

Anyone using datadomain? We got quoted a price that would buy us a petabyte of raw disk for the same price as a data domain box.

We could probably buy half a petabyte, compress it with standard gzip and come out paying less money.

Going back to tape and tape robots is starting to sound good again.......

We use them. Work as advertised. Not cheap though.

code:
UPTIME= 06:59:30 up 325 days, 15:40,  0 users,  load average: 1.00, 1.02, 1.00

==========  SERVER USAGE   ==========
Resource             Size GiB   Used GiB   Avail GiB   Use%   Cleanable GiB*
------------------   --------   --------   ---------   ----   --------------
/backup: pre-comp           -    15942.6           -      -                -
/backup: post-comp     2537.2      771.2      1766.0    30%              0.0
/ddvar                   19.7        2.6        16.1    14%                -
------------------   --------   --------   ---------   ----   --------------
 * Estimated based on last cleaning of 2010/11/23 06:24:06.

Filesys Compression
--------------
                      
From: 2010-11-22 06:00 To: 2010-11-29 06:00
                      
                  Pre-Comp   Post-Comp   Global-Comp   Local-Comp      Total-Comp
                     (GiB)       (GiB)        Factor       Factor          Factor
                                                                    (Reduction %)
---------------   --------   ---------   -----------   ----------   -------------
Currently Used:    15942.6       771.2             -            -    20.7x (95.2)
Written:*                                                                        
  Last 7 days                                                                    
  Last 24 hrs                                                                    
---------------   --------   ---------   -----------   ----------   -------------
 * Does not include the effects of pre-comp file deletes/truncates
   since the last cleaning on 2010/11/23 06:24:06.
Key:                                                          
       Pre-Comp = Data written before compression             
       Post-Comp = Storage used after compression             
       Global-Comp Factor = Pre-Comp / (Size after de-dupe)   
       Local-Comp Factor = (Size after de-dupe) / Post-Comp   
       Total-Comp Factor = Pre-Comp / Post-Comp               
       Reduction % = ((Pre-Comp - Post-Comp) / Pre-Comp) * 100

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


InferiorWang posted:

Does anyone have any experience with the HP P4300 G2 SAN starter kit? Thoughts? Has HP screwed up the Lefthand units or are they still a good option for an iscsi SAN? I'm looking into virtualizing a large chunk of our physical machines. We only have one server running one mssql database and no Oracle. It will mostly be for our GroupWise system and network file storage, along with the odds and ends boxes that are just wasting electricity.

I got pricing and it was more than I was expecting. Then again, I have no real basis for my expectations.

Sure do. Pricing shouldn't be too bad, not sure where they came at you with, but if you PM me I'll ballpark what we paid.

I have 4 shelves of 450GB 15K drives of LeftHand/P4300 that are used in an Oracle lab environment running on 10Gig. No complaints at all other than the way LeftHand stuff is setup. You don't have granular disk control. You can't take drives 1-4 and create a LUN, it stripes everything across all disks. For the lab they're buying compellant next since they have physical drive control.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Syano posted:

Is there anyone that competes price wise with dell and their power vault 3xxx series of iscsi SANs? I would love to be able to get a competitor to show me what they have but i have yet to find anyone that can compete price wise

What config are you looking at? If you beat them up enough you might be able to get an HP MSA/P2000 unit for about the same price.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Oh :wtc:

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


It's their LeftHand stuff. They're moving away from that name.

I like it, no issues with it at all. It has some limitations that other kit doesn't have, but if you understand how it works, and it fits your environment go for it.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


RE: P4000 limitations, I would really call them limitations, it's just the way the boxes work. I had some engineers looking for a SAN, but they wanted granular control of the disks and what LUN etc they went to. They wanted to say disks 0,1,2,3 are part of this, and 4-10 are here, etc. The LeftHand boxes don't do that. They spread the data out automagically. The network RAID also immediately halves your usable storage if you only run 2 nodes.

I actually like them alot, just plug in a few more nodes and let the software take care of everything.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert





New toys just showed up. Too bad they're not for me :(

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


What solution did you end up using for Virtual Desktops? How happy are you with it?

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


InferiorWang posted:

HP makes getting competitive pricing, at least with the lefthand units but probably with all their storage, impossible. Butt hurt VARs refuse to give me quotes because they're not the preferential partner on the project and I can't make a purchase without competitive quotes. I hate VARs.

Well the problem is HP. They give a fatty discount to whomever 'deal reg's' the opportunity. If you don't have the deal registration you can't get primo pricing. Our VAR is straight with us, we know his markup, he tells us his raw costs, etc. But there's nothing stopping a crappy VAR from getting the deal reg, and just pocketing the savings.

I bought some LH kit for our Austin TX location, but corporate is in California. Took over a week and a bunch of emails and calls to get some 'out of territory exception' so I could buy the drat boxes. HP makes it way too complicated to buy their equipment.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Noghri_ViR posted:

My reseller from Enpointe told me not to take NetApp's 1,2 or 3rd offer. Told me on the 3rd offer to tell them I was looking pretty solid like I was going with EMC. Netapp came back and beat their price once again.

If you're dealing directly with NetApp make sure you're getting at least 3 or 4 nice lunches and a little swag out of them as well. The last big purchase we made from them was drat near 50% off list. Remember margins on poo poo like software and support are in the 80% range, there's plenty of room to move on that stuff.

Being able to fast track a PO to get it in before the Q or even fiscal year is a huge thing as well. Those salesmen love their commission and if one needs your deal to go through to hit/beat his plan they'll basically do anything you want.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


We use almost everything mentioned here in our backup scheme.

The NetApp SAN runs snapshots, and nightly backups are pushed to a DataDomain, and that's backed up weekly to LTO4 where it's then shipped offsite to Iron Mountain. Monthly backups stay off for a long long time, and weekly's get rotated every X weeks.

I'm personally a big advocate of offsite storage, if an unhappy admin went in an wiped out the SAN (which runs all our VM's, and storage), and then nuked the DD, and we didn't have tapes the company would be irreparably harmed. It wouldn't be able to recover.


Lots of you guys work for smaller companies so this kind of hardware is outside of your budgets. It's nice as hell to have though.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


the spyder posted:

I am in a smaller environment, but I had no idea Tape had finally dropped to such an affordable price. It looks like I can pick up a refurb PE124T LTO4 SAS with 8 cartridges + 10 tapes for around $2500. I need to buy two media safes (one for here and one for the owners house), but I am sure happy the subject was brought back up. This way I can keep monthly and weekly offsite backups, on top of the daily disk to disk snapshots. (Currently at 1.2tb of data, 2 tapes or so worth.)

2500 isn't steep at all, especially considering a major data loss can pretty much destroy most small businesses. Even having the boss keep a monthly set offsite at his house or in a safety deposit box can be the difference between a company surviving or not.



Vanilla posted:

This is a topic that has been brought up recently due to what happended to the Aussie company Distribute IT.

As far as i'm aware Data Domain have the ability to dial into the box and recover any backups, it's something initiated by engineering. Even if someone deleted all the backups they could still get them back - feel free to ask them.

Well thats neat.

How about I take the drives out of the DD and smash them, do they have an answer for that? I'm a really really angry admin.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Wompa164 posted:

Alright so per my last post, I managed to find an LTO4 tape drive (my company actually had one). Now my question is, what brand of tape do you guys prefer? I see there's a lot - IBM, Quantum, Sony, etc. and the choices are overwhelming.

I've always used Sony and never had a problem. Whatever my personal anecdote is worth.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


What's the general opinion of 3PAR kit?

I'm not the SAN guy, but we're looking at replacing our 2 NetApp 3020's with a single larger unit and hopefully saving on maintenance costs. I think the 3020's are going into year 4 of production and they're maxed out shelf wise. My boss has mentioned the maintenance renewal on these is borderline robbery.

According to my VAR HP is being ultra aggressive with 3PAR right now, especially when unseating the incumbent SAN in a company and really wants to get them in front of the SAN guy and our boss, but I'm hesitant to recommend they talk to them without doing some homework.

Right now we're in talks with NetApp for a larger unit...I'm assuming something along the lines of a 6040 unit.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


I don't think the actual storage of the data is as important as to how the data is going to be used and accessed.


If you want just bulk storage of data a BackBlaze style setup is going to be the cheapest way to store all that data. Now if you need to be able to access and run complex poo poo against 7.5TB of data from 3 months ago... that's a different ballgame.

Either way, it's going to be an expensive project best served by overpaid but hopefully knowledgeable consultants.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


It worked for us. I'm not sure how EMC won over my boss and the storage guy, but we're moving from NetApp to EMC. We bought a couple of VNX5500's at what I hear is a ridiculous discount. I know management was getting annoyed at NetApp's ridiculous maintenance fees as well.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


HAHA I just had a meeting with my team lead/storage guy and we're still in the migration process from the NetApp to EMC boxes. He used a lot of sayings that started with "EMC says....It should do this... It's supposed to work this way" and I immediately thought back to these posts.

We might be in trouble...

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


We're looking at a new SAN to consolidate some aging infra on VMWare and provide some bulk storage. Right now we're looking at a EMC VNXe 3300 with 15 x 600GB 15K and 6 or 8 x 2TB drives for NFS/CIFS storage. What else should we be looking at in that price range? The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the P4000/LeftHand stuff, but I would lose out on the Network Raid crap unless I doubled the price. My HP reseller mentioned a small EVA, but I'm not sure how well that would be received.

EMC is the incumbent as the storage guy likes their stuff, so I need something in that price range.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


CF, I can't give exact numbers but our pricing on a VNXe box from EMC with close to your data capacity isn't far off that 30K mark.

I would also recommend exploring Raid 6 instead of 5. I've heard (probably from this thread) that rebuilding a Raid 5 array with those large disks can take days, and the odds of coming across a bad sector that fucks the rebuild is increased.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


bull3964 posted:

Are you getting the pricing straight from Dell or after some back and forth? I ask because dual controller MD3620i start at $18k on their site and MD1220s are $3500 a piece. That comes out to $25k and not $15k

No one pays list price. Discounts of 40% or more are common in enterprise IT gear. The publicly traded guys will almost give stuff away at end of quarters and fiscal year end to make their revenue numbers.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Is it just me, or is no one able to fully execute with some kind of crazy fuckup. Is there a rock solid SAN provider out there (regardless of cost) that doesn't run into some kind of issue?

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Trying to decide right now between the VNXe 3300 and a EqualLogic 4100 series setup. 1 Shelf of fast, 1 of slow for each.

Assuming pricing is pretty close to each other, any reason I should run away from either solution? The NAS functionality of the VNXe currently has us leaning that way.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


VMWare licenses are going to cost more than my host hardware and my SAN. Not combined, but drat.

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skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Oh I'm not complaining about the price, just found it funny the licenses will cost more than the 3 servers or the SAN.

We're putting a smaller cluster in a remote office right now we're looking at

3 x DL360 G8's w 2x E5-2640's and 128GB ram

EMC VNXe 3300 with 9TB raw of 15K and 12TB of 7.2K. The 12TB will just be a giant NFS/CIFS share, no VM's will be put on there.


VMware vSphere Enterprise Acceleration Kit w/ 3 year 24/7 support. (Basically this is 6x vSphere 5 Enterprise licenses with a vCenter license)

I could definitely Hyper-V it up though if it came down to it. We're a VMWare shop in the larger sites though so I think they want to stay consistent.

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