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snotball007
Dec 5, 2011

Disturbing in the least.

ChillRoommates posted:

I've seen people do tests in which a 10mm penetrates better than 9mm significantly. Up to 18" in most tests. 9mm doesn't reach this reliably with HPs. This is why people like you would use 10mm to hunt.

Here is FBI testing of handgun rounds, including 9mm HP and 10mm HP:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

From their testing the 9mm (which is a subsonic JHP 147gr) met the 12" minimum 67.5% of the time, with an average 14" of penetration.

The 10mm (subsonic 180gr JHP apparently) met the 12" 97.5% of the time with an average penetration of 18"

They basically loved everything about the 10mm, and it wasn't even that hot of a loading.

It's old testing, but if differences of bullet weight and speed really don't matter, how the hell did the FBI get those results?

I've said this multiple times but here we go: I'm not suggesting you carry 10mm, I just took issue with the suggestion that all modern semi-auto handgun calibers are created exactly equal and we've reached the limits of their effectiveness.

Pretty sure self defense/law enforcement ammo has gotten better in the 25 years since the information you just cited was recorded. Hell, bonded bullets weren't even conceived when that was written. Not to mention they used Hydrashocks which have long since been regarded as "old technology"

And like I said earlier and have shown with not only relevant video and a highly regarded link, modern hollow point designs for self defense perform to virtually the same parameters with the trade off being ~.1" expansion + recoil versus ammo capacity + quicker follow up shots.

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Chill Doomhate
Nov 12, 2013

by Shine


snotball007 posted:

Pretty sure self defense/law enforcement ammo has gotten better in the 25 years since the information you just cited was recorded. Hell, bonded bullets weren't even conceived when that was written. Not to mention they used Hydrashocks which have long since been regarded as "old technology"

And like I said earlier and have shown with not only relevant video and a highly regarded link, modern hollow point designs for self defense perform to virtually the same parameters with the trade off being ~.1" expansion + recoil versus ammo capacity + quicker follow up shots.

We're going in circles at this point. Please show me some tests using today's bullet tech in which a 9mm reliably penetrates to 18" and beyond and expands to .68". When HP technology advances, results don't become the same across the board, they all become better.

More old stuff in which weak 10mm (around the bottom edge of supersonic) penetrates deep with good expansion:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/10mm.htm

One result: 15.60" penetration with 0.67" diameter, in clothed gelatin, with subsonic 10mm. This is with old tech and it's the same if not better than most 9mm today. That's better than the 9mm rounds you linked from the ar15 page. And you think this hasn't gotten better as well?

E: Tiredness

Chill Doomhate fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Sep 23, 2014

snotball007
Dec 5, 2011

Disturbing in the least.

ChillRoommates posted:

We're going in circles at this point.

Agreed.

DakianDelomast
Mar 5, 2003


Juice posted:

See this is how people get cut.


No but seriously you're pretty dumb.

Despite my comments being hyperbole I don't think they're particularly inaccurate to say that 1911s and CZ are impractical as self defensive firearms. Reliability with hollowpoint ammunition is always suspect in these firearms and limits their use to range duty or hundreds of dollars (at least) in custom work with many hours of trial and error. Compared to almost any mainstream striker pistol that comes out of the box with expectations of 1000s of rounds of flawless function and my commentary doesn't seem that far off base.

I also feel like this is a cop out but my two favorite range toys are my 1911 NM and my CZ SP01 Shadow but I carry a Glock 19 for CCW.

As for 10mm chat snotball007 has covered it far better than I could have. I believe 10mm is a neat round and has function as a hunting or a hiking gun where large dangerous game may be encountered, but not as a mainstream pistol caliber. It is perfectly suited to the eccentrics and fringe enthusiasts of the hobby.

A 10mm Dan Wesson is cool because it is impractical triumph of excess, not because it's a practical firearm by any measure.

Juice
Jun 19, 2002



Kommienzuspadt posted:

Thus, the only advantage conferred by 10mm over any other .40 caliber projectile is the depth that the projectile penetrates into a soft target, and how well they maintain their trajectory while they decelerate upon transitioning into the softer medium. Any freshman Physics major can tell you that momentum (d) is equal to mass times velocity (mv). Objects with high momentum will resist changing direction or magnitude of travel. However, in the case of pistol bullets keep in mind that as the caliber of the projectile diminishes, so too does the magnitude of the shear forces that it experiences due to the friction of soft tissue. Thus, while a 147gr 9mm has less momentum than a 230gr .45, it also experiences less friction and thus less negative acceleration upon entering the denser medium. This is why 9mm and .45 tend to penetrate roughly equivalent distances assuming the sectional density of projectiles is kept constant, though a .45 will be less likely to deviate if it passes through a semi-hard intermediate barrier. Furthermore, as mentioned by snotball007, the only way that pistols damage human tissue is by directly disrupting solid organs or the central nervous system, and incapacitation is only achieved by causing so much blood loss that you catastrophically disrupt hemostasis, or by directly destroying the CNS such that they cannot fight. The third and most unreliable mechanism is psychological incapacitation but thats not relevant for this discussion. the difference between a 9mm and a .45 is 0.1" . Your liver is on average 3.5lb; most of your major blood bearing organs are the size of your first or significantly bigger. Do you think that 0.1" matters? Do you think it matters if it hits your spine or skull, either?

Something to keep in mind. The 0.1" you cite means more than you're making it out to mean. The cross-sectional area of a 9mm at full expansion (0.56) is .246 sq. inches. The area of the 10mm is (0.69) .3739 sq. inches. That's a 52% increase in damage. For bullets with equal speed and mass, the greater expansion always gives up penetration. In the case where we're comparing a 10mm to a 9mm, the 10mm gets greater expansion, greater destruction, and greater penetration. Better than 50% more.

This has nothing to do with the "should I carry a 10mm" question. From my earlier post, a 20mm cannon does fine work but the trade offs means no one carries one. Few people carry a 10mm because the trade offs mean it isn't worth it and yes, as you note, a 9mm can kill people just as dead and stop people effectively.

It's all about trade offs when picking a carry weapon. It's wrong to say that a more powerful chambering isn't any more effective. It's just wrong and stupid. A 44 magnum is[/s] more effective. A 10mm [b]is more effective. It's still the wrong sidearm choice for most people because of the trade offs. It doesn't change the ballistics to somehow be equal to 9mm.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


ChillRoommates posted:

I disagree that all pistol calibers perform basically the same. An extra 2" of penetration can stop a threat when less couldn't. Even an extra .1" can cause a round to hit the right spot and kill someone.


They are basically the same. They are not exactly the same, but on a practical level when discussing the various objects of importance in human anatomy, there is nothing that an extra 0.1" or 0.05" will fundamentally change. If you can name a specific case or a specific organ in which this is relevant I would welcome it; otherwise it is hard for me to make an argument against unsupported assertions. Momentum will be important when it comes to ensuring that it drives through bone, but even that is not guaranteed. As for penetration:



Finally, I will remind you there are other benefits that come with a reduction in caliber. here is another quote from Dr. Roberts (emphasis mine)

quote:

In the last decade or so, ammo engineers have produced a superb generation of 9 mm projectiles that offer penetration in the ideal range and that are capable of good performance after common intermediate barriers. As many agencies are discovering, modern robust expanding, barrier blind 9 mm ammunition is performing on par with larger caliber handgun loads, but offers substantial fiscal and training benefits. In test after test, most officers demonstrate a higher qualification score when shooting 9 mm compared to other common service calibers. Smaller statured officers and those with small hands tend to shoot better with 9 mm. Service pistols tend to be more durable in 9 mm than those in 357 Sig and .40 S&W. In a time of fiscal austerity, 9 mm ammunition is certainly less expensive. For most LE duties, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9 mm: easy to shoot-- especially one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets immediately on tap.

The penetration of 10mm is desirable for hunting because quadripedal animals are often thicker (especially when not viewed from profile) than humans and rounds need to penetrate deeper to reach the vital organs. This isn't a relevant consideration for self defense. People can carry whatever they want - it's not skin off my back - but I would be remiss not to address the fact that bigger doesn't always equal better and that statistics like expanded diameter and inches of penetration come with a seriously diminishing margin of return the higher you go.

Juice
Jun 19, 2002



DakianDelomast posted:

Despite my comments being hyperbole I don't think they're particularly inaccurate to say that 1911s and CZ are impractical as self defensive firearms. Reliability with hollowpoint ammunition is always suspect in these firearms and limits their use to range duty or hundreds of dollars (at least) in custom work with many hours of trial and error. Compared to almost any mainstream striker pistol that comes out of the box with expectations of 1000s of rounds of flawless function and my commentary doesn't seem that far off base.

Yea, your comments about 1911s are inaccurate.

You don't get to say that they are limited to range duty, or inappropriate to carry because it takes a couple hundred dollars to make them reliable. By the same token you should tell us a Porche 911 is inappropriate for getting to work every day.

So I'm going to stop there. Your statement is stupid enough that it's not worth much of my time to refute.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


Juice posted:

Something to keep in mind. The 0.1" you cite means more than you're making it out to mean. The cross-sectional area of a 9mm at full expansion (0.56) is .246 sq. inches. The area of the 10mm is (0.69) .3739 sq. inches. That's a 52% increase in damage. For bullets with equal speed and mass, the greater expansion always gives up penetration. In the case where we're comparing a 10mm to a 9mm, the 10mm gets greater expansion, greater destruction, and greater penetration. Better than 50% more.

This has nothing to do with the "should I carry a 10mm" question. From my earlier post, a 20mm cannon does fine work but the trade offs means no one carries one. Few people carry a 10mm because the trade offs mean it isn't worth it and yes, as you note, a 9mm can kill people just as dead and stop people effectively.

It's all about trade offs when picking a carry weapon. It's wrong to say that a more powerful chambering isn't any more effective. It's just wrong and stupid. A 44 magnum is[/s] more effective. A 10mm [b]is more effective. It's still the wrong sidearm choice for most people because of the trade offs. It doesn't change the ballistics to somehow be equal to 9mm.

1. Paragraph 1: Percentages (i.e. 52% more damage) are meaningless when the absolute values are still insignificant. Even a .22 can (And very , very ,very often does in this country) induce massive damage to blood bearing organs that causes a loss of life. We don't recommend for self defense it because it cannot reliably do so, but with pistol calibers the diameter and area of the project simply aren't that important, no matter the percentage difference between them.

2. Paragraph 2: agreed.

3. Paragraph 3: It is not wrong and stupid, it is empirically supported fact. Your use of metrics is flawed: a .44 magnum and a 10mm are more effective at penetrating deeper than smaller calibers, yes. They are also marginally wider. But does that make them more effective in the context of self defense, even if recoil and magazine capacity were identical? Not really, no.

Once you get below .38 Spl, into .380 auto and smaller, then you start seeing insufficient penetration as per the FBI wound ballistics protocol. However, once you get above that 12-14" of depth, there just isn't really much to substantiate the notion that there is an increasing return. 9mm, .40, and .45 are in the "sweet spot" on the curve of marginal returns. the bigger ones - unless you are hunting something that is really thick - end up on the wrong side of that curve.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



E: ^^^ I want the record to show that Kommie finally stated that 40 Short & Weak is on the sweet spot.

Meanwhile, I have a Glock 42 loaded with ball in a leather Galco for a PM9 and no spare mag. And the only knife on me is a blue bone Case peanut.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Sep 23, 2014

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


Butch Cassidy posted:

Meanwhile, I have a Glock 42 loaded with ball in a leather Galco for a PM9 and no spare mag. And the only knife on me is a blue bone Case peanut.

You're basically dead the second you walk outside the door.

DakianDelomast
Mar 5, 2003


Juice posted:

Yea, your comments about 1911s are inaccurate.

You don't get to say that they are limited to range duty, or inappropriate to carry because it takes a couple hundred dollars to make them reliable. By the same token you should tell us a Porche 911 is inappropriate for getting to work every day.

So I'm going to stop there. Your statement is stupid enough that it's not worth much of my time to refute.

ACTUALLY FUNNY ENOUGH I was going to make an analogy of recommending a 1911 for defensive carry is as impractical of recommending a Porsche 911 as a daily commuter car.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


DakianDelomast posted:

ACTUALLY FUNNY ENOUGH I was going to make an analogy of recommending a 1911 for defensive carry is as impractical of recommending a Porsche 911 as a daily commuter car.

Which is fine, as long as it's recognized that the reason the Porsche is being selected is because it is a Porsche 911, and not because it is a more effective daily commuter car. As long as both are in working order, a Porsche and a Toyota will both get you to your office in roughly equally as well.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Kommienzuspadt posted:

Which is fine, as long as it's recognized that the reason the Porsche is being selected is because it is a Porsche 911, and not because it is a more effective daily commuter car. As long as both are in working order, a Porsche and a Toyota will both get you to your office in roughly equally as well.

On the one hand: Powersliding a 911 into your parking spot would be the best thing.

On the other hand: You can give no fucks about Powersliding your old Camry into everything.

If I could afford to pound around a zippy little coupe while toting a Delta Elite, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Or a 1911 in a Jeep Willys.

Already done it in a half ton and a J-frame

SpelledBackwards
Jan 7, 2001

I found this image on the Internet, perhaps you've heard of it? It's been around for a while I hear.



But is it easier to conceal a 911 or a 1911

Juice
Jun 19, 2002



Kommienzuspadt posted:

Which is fine, as long as it's recognized that the reason the Porsche is being selected is because it is a Porsche 911, and not because it is a more effective daily commuter car. As long as both are in working order, a Porsche and a Toyota will both get you to your office in roughly equally as well.

Right. Porch 911s are loving awesome and get the job done. Same with 1911s. You don't give up anything in either of them - the porche gets you from A to B and the 1911 puts lead on target 100% of the time - if you're willing to pay for it. Neither of them are cost-effective alternatives. But his statement wasn't based on cost effectiveness. His statement was broader than that, which is why it's incorrect.

Exit Strategy
Dec 10, 2010



Thanks, thread, for letting me know that I'm going to die because I carry a P-01 with 10k through it and just a pair of aftermarket grips and a spare mag.

Chill Doomhate
Nov 12, 2013

by Shine


Exit Strategy posted:

Thanks, thread, for letting me know that I'm going to die because I carry a P-01 with 10k through it and just a pair of aftermarket grips and a spare mag.

Jesus dude, why don't you just carry a sock with a rock in it?

So the argument is coming down to "some cartridges perform better, but they are useless if they reach more than 12-14".

In a link to the FBI report I posted, the FBI says that 12" is the minimum, but 18" is preferred. If 10mm reaches this 18" while expanding more, by FBI testing and standards it out-performs other cartridges, meaning it is likely to be more effective on humans.

You keep insisting that we've reached the limits of handgun round effectiveness, I think that's false. I think we can definitely improve on 12-14".

By the way, you keep arguing about 10mm's other negatives. But I agree with you, I'm taking issue with the notion that 9mm and 10mm act exactly the same in the human body. From the ballistic testing I've seen, that's completely wrong. That's why 10mm has significant trade-offs, because it is significantly more powerful.

z06ck
Dec 22, 2010



Everyone just go buy a 1911 in 10mm and shut up.

poo poo, 10mm bullets can go 1700fps. That's near RAFFLE damage.

Darth Freddy
Feb 6, 2007

An Emperor's slightest dislike is transmitted to those who serve him, and there it is amplified into rage.

Wait no! every one should get a 1911 in 45 Winchester Magnum! Its big 230 grain AND fast 1600 FPS!

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Get an M1 carbine in 45 Win. Mag. to go with it

Beardless
Aug 12, 2011

I am Centurion Titus Polonius. And the only trouble I've had is that nobody seem to realize that I'm their superior officer.


gently caress 10mm, give me a Holland and Holland in .600 Nitro express. Just cut the stock off and the barrels down, and then you can carry it concealed.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Beardless posted:

gently caress 10mm, give me a Holland and Holland in .600 Nitro express. Just cut the stock off and the barrels down, and then you can carry it concealed.

Pack that bitch full of Retumbo and take out three or four punks thugs zombies goblins rogue unicorns at once with the muzzle flash

JRay88
Jan 4, 2013


Beardless posted:

gently caress 10mm, give me a Holland and Holland in .600 Nitro express. Just cut the stock off and the barrels down, and then you can carry it concealed.

Not powerful enough. Gotta go .950 JDJ or nothing at all.

Chill Doomhate
Nov 12, 2013

by Shine


It is said that .950 JDJ will fix all of man's problems, and some of God's.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


ChillRoommates posted:


So the argument is coming down to "some cartridges perform better, but they are useless if they reach more than 12-14".

In a link to the FBI report I posted, the FBI says that 12" is the minimum, but 18" is preferred. If 10mm reaches this 18" while expanding more, by FBI testing and standards it out-performs other cartridges, meaning it is likely to be more effective on humans.

You keep insisting that we've reached the limits of handgun round effectiveness, I think that's false. I think we can definitely improve on 12-14".


1. No, my argument is that beyond 14" you see greatly diminishing returns to the point of being unhelpful while increasing all of the negative traits of higher caliber handgun ammunition (increased recoil, decreased magazine capacity).

2. We can improve on 12-14" by using a bigger bullet going faster, like a hard cast-10mm. My argument is that this makes basically no difference in terms of its ability to stop an aggressor. The extra penetration doesn't correlate linearly to its incapacitation potential - all that this means is that it is (maybe) more likely to continue its trajectory undeflected by intermediate barriers. A well designed 9mm JHP will expand and shed its jacket in a soft target, causing more peripheral tissue damage than a hard-cast lead 10mm that punches a single .40 caliber entrance and exit wound into the same. In this case, the 9mm will be more lethal, all other factors being equal.

3. Notice how the FBI ditched the 10mm in favor the the .40 S&W (and is now in the process of transitioning all of its agents to 9mm?). Think about it. The IWBA calls for 12-14" penetration in calibrated gelatin with proper expansion and that has been and continues to be the standard today.

4. Yes, we have reached the limits of handgun round effectiveness, unless someone invents one full of plutonium. The only thing left to improve is consistency of expansion in JHP design and we're already doing pretty drat well with that. Frankly, handguns are very anemic firearms and for more firepower you need to step up to a rifle or a shotgun.

More reading:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm

Chill Doomhate
Nov 12, 2013

by Shine


I disagree. I think rounds that hit 14-18" are more effective. Let's leave it at that I suppose.

nurabsal
Oct 13, 2012



So, I just ordered a Steyr SA-1 from Buds for about 475 shipped. I have a theis hybrid holster which I bought for a PPQ M2 and later used when I was carrying a Glock 26. Hoping it will work fine with the SA-1- trigger guard isn't as squared off but the thing is as wide as a .45 Glock.

z06ck
Dec 22, 2010



Ok, we're done here.

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


I carry a .25ACP, because it penetrates the standard 12-14".

In cherry jello.

z06ck
Dec 22, 2010



Someone needs to start a 10MM thread.

The thread to make all other threads diminish, the next TFR trend.



I would actually enjoy this.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


ChillRoommates posted:

I disagree. I think rounds that hit 14-18" are more effective. Let's leave it at that I suppose.

Okie doke

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Kommienzuspadt posted:

A well designed 9mm JHP will expand and shed its jacket in a soft target

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it



Sorry, you are right, that's not correct. Not sure what I was smoking when I wrote that.

Juice
Jun 19, 2002



Kommienzuspadt posted:

Sorry, you are right, that's not correct. Not sure what I was smoking when I wrote that.

Same as you were smoking for the rest of it, heathen.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


Juice posted:

Same as you were smoking for the rest of it, heathen.



Nope

Final Blog Entry
Jun 23, 2006

"Love us with money or we'll hate you with hammers!"

Is there a recommended carry ammo in 38 special that will perform well in an alloy J frame and that is actually in stock somewhere? I keep seeing the Gold Dot 135gr +p and the Corbon 110gr being touted for short barrel performance, but nobody has either in stock that I can find.

beanieson
Sep 25, 2008

I had the opportunity to change literally anything about the world and I used it to get a new av


Ordered from comp-tac, received no smarties

1/10 would not buy again

Basticle
Sep 12, 2011




Final Blog Entry posted:

Is there a recommended carry ammo in 38 special that will perform well in an alloy J frame and that is actually in stock somewhere? I keep seeing the Gold Dot 135gr +p and the Corbon 110gr being touted for short barrel performance, but nobody has either in stock that I can find.

http://www.surplusammo.com/38-special-110-grain-jhp-p-corbon-self-defense-20-rounds/
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/spe...mpaign=ammoseek



I found those using https://www.ammoseek.com which lets you search for specific manufacturers and grain

Bummey
May 26, 2004

you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata


beanieson posted:

Ordered from comp-tac, received no smarties

1/10 would not buy again

They have great customer support. This is a prime opportunity to test it.

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GunForumMeme
Apr 22, 2010


beanieson posted:

Ordered from comp-tac, received no smarties

1/10 would not buy again

This displeases the fat kid in me.

What'd you end up getting?

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