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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Zorblack posted:

Some things I would really like (after listening to some points in another thread) : a gun that can be carried in condition 2 (live round, hammer down) with a DA trigger, a grip safety, low price, rugged reliability.

Again, I don't think you're going to find anything that fits the bill. A Para-Ord 1911 with the LDA trigger sort of fits, except for the low price. I was thinking a Colt Double Eagle might fit (but again they're kind of expensive) but they've been out of production for years and it turns out they don't have a grip safety. The XD has a grip safety, but is basically a single action and has no external hammer. The P7 effectively has a grip safety, and it also carries with the "hammer" down on a chambered round, but when you squeeze the grip it cocks the gun so you get a short, single action trigger pull.

Really, a grip safety is a superfluous feature. There's a reason hardly anybody ever puts one on a gun. When would it ever do any good? When are you going to be in a situation where your finger (or another object) is going to pull the trigger, but you aren't gripping the gun? The P7 is kind of an exception because the grip is more of a cocking/decocking lever rather than a true safety, although since you can't pull the trigger when it's decocked, it can be considered as such.



CoolBlue posted:

For those of you that have gun mounted lights for a CCW, what holster do you use?

I don't own one yet, but people are raving about Phoenix Concealment's holsters.



kwantam posted:

Never use hand loads for home defense or CCW. No, it has nothing to do with your lack of skill in loading. If/when you shoot someone with your handloads, the prosecutor may well decide that you loaded up some extra special armor piercing cop killing angel raping bullets because you're a lunatic. IMO the best round to use is the one that the cops in your area use, because (1) they generally use good ammo, and (2) "yes sir, I use the same ammunition as peace officers for my self defense."

I thought the real issue with handloads was that, during the post-shooting investigation, it was nearly impossible to replicate the conditions of the shooting due to your ammo not matching known manufacturer specs for velocity, patterns of gunshot residue, etc. so it was hard to back up your claims of what happened.

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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

mrbill posted:

I read an Ayoob article that said you should contact / find out what ammo your local police department uses in their carry guns, and use that same ammo in yours. That way you avoid the "BLACK TALON COP KILLER" situation.

Not a bad idea; it might strengthen the credibility of your ammo choice. But I don't think you'd have trouble with any of the mainstream defensive loads, either. That way you're not limited if your local PD feels it needs to use EFMJ rounds or some other weird choice.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Zorblack posted:

I still feel leery about carrying a gun with the chamber loaded and hammer cocked, but I guess this is something I just have to deal with mentally? I'd really prefer not to have a gun that requires a safety to be turned off before firing because no matter how many times I would practice thumbing it off before firing I feel like when push comes to shove I'd stumble on it. How about some advice for the extreme novice (me)?

In my opinion, you're right on the money for not wanting a manual safety on your first carry gun; you want to keep it simple. There are any number of "traditional" double action pistols that would work - models that have a decocker but no safety such as SIGs, Beretta G-series autos, some CZs, some H&K USPs, some Walthers, and probably lots more that I can't think of at the moment because my prefrontal cortex is fully of Laffy Taffy. The disadvantage is that the first (double action) trigger pull will be long and heavy, whereas subsequent (single action) shots will be light and short, and it takes a fair amount of training to shoot both ways accurately and to get used to the transition between the two.

There are things like Glocks and S&W M&Ps that aren't technically cocked when at rest; they're sort of at a half-cock and will only fire if you fully pull the trigger. The advantage is that the trigger pull is the same for every shot. It's not as heavy as a true double action pull, but it's heavier and longer than a single action pull.

And then there are double-action-only guns which come in many flavors. Some of the simpler designs might appeal to you; the trigger pull is the same for every shot as with Glocks and such, but each time it's the longer, heavier pull of a traditional double action because the hammer returns to the at-rest position after every slide cycle. A true DAO can be comforting to a new shooter because of the wide safety margin that the heavy trigger pull allows. Granted, the weight of the trigger pull should be irrelevant because the gun will only go off if you pull the trigger no matter what the weight is, but a heavy trigger can still give some measure of peace of mind.

In the true DAO market, I like the Beretta D-series (92D in 9mm or 96D in .40). They are reliable, solid, accurate guns and though the DAO trigger is long and heavy, it is very smooth. And D-series Berettas are pretty cheap right now as police departments trade them in for newer guns - they can frequently be found for less than $300. However, the Berettas are on the large side and as such may not be great for carry. There is also the SIG P250, a newcomer that shows a lot of promise. It has a polymer frame so it's lighter than the Beretta, and it also has the advantage of interchangeable slides and frames so you can modify the size of the gun to best suit your needs. The P250 will probably cost about twice what a used D-series Beretta will though.

And then there are hybrid DAOs. Things like DAO classic S&Ws and SIGs that use the DAK trigger. These are sort of half-cocked like Glocks are. And then there's H&K's LEM trigger, which is phenomenal but may not be heavy enough for your needs.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Cyrano4747 posted:

Really they're only halfway excusable if you spend all day sitting in a car.

Or a helicopter.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

sky shark posted:

SOB is never acceptable. Ever. Any holster that requires you to get into a hammerlock to draw is a no-go. Especially if it can cause spinal injuries if you fall on it.

Pretty much this.

My summertime load is a P225 in a CTAC; if I need deeper concealment than that I'll throw it in a Thunderwear holster and hope it doesn't rust too much.

This time of year I can rock pretty much any size gun; my favorite lately is the USPf in an Aker Flatsider.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Armacham posted:

I thought they tried to weed out the mentally ill from owning firearms

It wouldn't be fair to keep ex-marines from buying guns.

:iceburn:

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Elendil004 posted:

Former marines...

I can never remember which is which.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Ferris Bueller posted:

General 9mm question, and more a straw poll, what type of 9mm do you use for defense ammo?

I generally run 147-grain Winchester SXTs, though I'm almost out of them. I still have a bunch of 124-grain Speer Gold Dots, and I'm comfortable with those too. Golden Sabers are fine; I just don't happen to have any on hand.

I am eager to try some of those Hornady Critical Defense rounds. Those look awesome.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

I just read a post-shooting analysis where a non-drugged-up 18-year-old suspect was hit with numerous 180gr. .40 Golds Dots and also took "approximately sixteen" rounds of Hornady TAP in .223 (a mix of 55gr. and 75gr.) before he stopped shooting at officers.

- Out of 17 Gold Dots that hit the subject, 11 passed through. Only six were recovered in the body. Only five of those had expanded.

- All 16 or so .223 TAP bullets appear to have transited the subject without expanding or fragmenting.

I don't think a .45 would have ended that fight any quicker, but better shot placement or different ammo choices might have. The shot that reportedly ended the fight was a Gold Dot to the back of the head, and even after that the guy was still fighting the officers who were trying to handcuff him.

I've also seen footage a person drop like a sack of potatoes after taking a single round of .22LR. Of course, that doesn't mean I'd choose a .22 over a 9mm...

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

kwantam posted:

Stuff like this makes me believe that the incidence of poor JHP performance is vastly underreported, or at least that there's a very good probability this is the case. It also makes me want to practice more and be able to buy bunches more HSTs.

How many of the hits were actually in the cardiovascular triangle?

It's hard to say for sure but it looks like none. One .40 hit just below the triangle on one side, and one .223 went through the other side at about the same height. The autopsy report said one of the subject's lungs was collapsed.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

porkface posted:

I suspect that for people who haven't seen combat, expecting much more in terms of shot placement is asking a bit much.

Not to mention, what kind of data do we have about where these shots hit in these scenarios we're discussing?

To address your first point, bullet placement was an issue I was treating objectively. I wasn't criticizing the officers in question.

As to the second point, the case I brought up was accompanied by x-rays and photos from the autopsy.

My point was that people will react very differently to being shot. Some will give up if you just graze them, and some will keep fighting even after suffering what should be incapacitating injuries. For the most part it doesn't really matter what kind of gun you're using or the caliber; there are very few hits that can be counted on as fight stoppers.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Southbound 35 posted:

Basically what I took away from it was that nervous police will loving kill you accidentally and it won't even really be their fault because they're so high on adrenaline and not prepared for that kind of situation.

That's why the focus in law enforcement training is leaning toward stress inoculation and scenarios designed specifically to ingrain appropriate use of force responses. Not every department can do it; it takes a lot of time, effort, and money. But it seems to be where most departments are heading.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

lilspooky posted:

Infrared, where are you reading / finding these autopsy reports? The med student in me is curious. :)

I get occasional reports from the FBI's Ballistic Research Facility, which sometimes gets involved in post-shooting analyses for smaller departments if the local conclusions about the shooting are called into question.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

DrunkenDiablo posted:

He wasn't seriously hurt, but I did obtain a chunk of his car and saved it for a couple years.

To the victor go the spoils!

I did that with a chunk of Noel Lawler's Tiburon after he drove off the side of a mountain at Cherokee Trails in '01.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Schigolch posted:

In TX at least the CHL allows them to skip the waiting period/background check, which being a sworn officer (surprisingly) does not.

Same thing in Michigan. And the CHL bypasses the worst of the pistol permit system too.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Label Facing Right posted:

So I'm going to be getting a Sig 225 and really like the M-Tac for a CCW holster but unfortunately they don't make one for the p225. However after looking at some of the specs I've found that the p229 is a pretty drat close match dimension wise.
code:
P229 dimensions:
  Overall Length 	7.1"
  Overall Height 	5.4"
  Overall Width 	1.5"
P225 dimensions:
  Overall Length  	7.1"
  Overall Height 	5.2"
  Overall Width 	1.3"
So has anyone tried this? Or is this too much to ask for as far as the difference in tolerances goes?

Short answer: Maybe. I got a Blackhawk Serpa for P228/P229 and I carry my P225 in it. It's a hair loose, but the holster still holds the gun securely. The main factors as said before are trigger guard shape/size and the width/contours of the slide.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

A USPc is 1.16" wide at the grip (a hair narrower at the slide), not counting safety or slide stop. I like the LEM which has no safety, only a slide stop. And the slide stop doesn't stick out to the point where it would be a detriment to comfortable carry.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

iroc_dis posted:

I'm really just looking for any holster that will fit that weapon with light, I couldn't care if it was inside or out. But yes, I understand that a G35 with light IWB would be retarded.

Raven Concealment probably makes one (IWB, that is).

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

poopship posted:

I had to look that up. You people will abbreviate loving anything.

YPWAFA

You Party With A Furry Assmaster?

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

poopship posted:

I had to look that up. You people will abbreviate loving anything.

YPWAFA

Yig Presses Wetly Against Fergie's Anterior?

Edit: Ypres Probably Was A French Atrocity?

infrared35 fucked around with this message at 23:45 on May 27, 2009

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Homie S posted:

What is this gun board you speak of?

A lot of states, especially those with may-issue systems, have a board that convenes to decide who gets a license and who doesn't. In Michigan, each board is made up of the sheriff (or representative), a member of the State Police, and the county prosecutor. But Michigan is a shall-issue state, so the board doesn't actually do much except act as a fail-safe. In Michigan, you used to have to go in front of the board and justify your application. Not any more.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Nine Lives posted:

Doesn't armed security in your state have a licensing process? Here in TX we have to do a short class to be able to carry a license saying that you can carry a firearms in the course of your duties as an armed security agent.

Yeah, it's a separate licensing system for security. I don't think having a CCW ahead of time would do much except it shows them you've passed a background check and can probably be trusted with a firearm, which would speed up their screening process considerably. And possibly save them some time training you.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

TenementFunster posted:

the P239 is downright dimmure

You must have a different spell check than I do.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Helter Skelter posted:

P228

Keep rubbing it in my face. Why don't you show us some pictures to make the tantalization complete? :mad:

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Whatever happened to rugby shirts?

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Captain Log posted:

My google-fu is weak. Where does this wording come into play?

I would assume that means places that restrict entry by age due to their primary income being from the serving of alcohol.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

mutt2jeff posted:

Why dont you gays just stop trying to carry? Seriously, if you feel the need to carry so badly, but cant carry it off with your muscle shirts wear a different loving shirt.

I can hide a medium-sized handgun by taping it in my chestbowl.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Micromancer posted:

Safeties on your gun increase the dangers to you, while protecting the safety of everyone else. Which is to say assailants.

Preach on, Brother Micromancer.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Cross-post from the photo thread:



Raven Concealment holster for P229 with TLR-1. I really like it. It's comfortable and surprisingly concealable.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

DJExile posted:

What's the other side of it like? Their website doesn't really show it.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Some guns are harder on chambered rounds than others. 1911s are pretty harsh, and my P220 is as well. At the other end of the spectrum, Glocks and HKs are pretty easy on bullets.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

poopgiggle posted:

As a followup to the question I just asked, is there any reason to prefer a S&W J-frame to a small-frame Colt like a Detective Special?

I know the TFR hivemind prefers Smiths to Colts in general but Summit seems to have had loads of Cobras and Detective Specials for cheap lately.

The Colts are probably fine, and they're a little classier than the Smiths. The problem is that they can require more maintenance than a Smith because the Colt mechanism goes out of time more easily. It's probably not as big an issue on a .38 as it is on a .357 like the Python, but it's something to be aware of. The other issue with the Colts is that they all have exposed hammers. If you're looking at pocket carry, you'd probably want to get the hammer bobbed, or try to track down a hammer shroud.

infrared35 fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Apr 26, 2010

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

poopgiggle posted:

Seemingly qualified gunsmith provides counterpoint to "Colts are delicate" argument prevalent here. I'm not qualified to say whether it's BS or not but it's interesting.

This is the same article we always make fun of because the guy makes the argument that a Ferrari (Colt) is better than a Ford (S&W), even though the Ferrari is a lot more expensive and requires frequent, expensive maintenance just to stay in operating condition, and you should never own a Ford because, though it always works, it'll never be as nice as a Ferrari.

Right?

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Liability insurance isn't a bad idea. I've seen decent policies for around $300 a year. If you're in a state where civil immunity is tied to castle doctrine, then you have less to worry about. But it's still a nice thing to have because, hey, poo poo happens.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

surfgod247 posted:

You can do both of that and it still cost you a lot of money. Even if you get the charges drop doesn't mean you cant find yourself in a civil lawsuit.

...except in states where there's civil immunity tied in with castle doctrine.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

I do not own a P239 or a J-frame but I don't think I've heard any complaints about long-term reliability.

I owned a Glock 26 for a number of years and it ran 100%, and it has run 100% for the guy I sold it to.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

I got printed the last time I renewed, but I was still on the old CPL that didn't get me out of NICS checks.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Mr. 47 posted:

Just a quick correction, I saw my Dad this weekend and asked about his .380. It's an AMT 9mm Back Up.



Notice that it says "9mm Kurz" which is .380 ACP. There was a later AMT Back Up in 9mm, but it had a long-pull double action only trigger system.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

cornface posted:

It is pretty easy to end up with a huge load of keys that you can't get rid of. Car(s), home, mailbox, office, server cabinets, car safe, office desk, etc.

:smith::hf::smith:

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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

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Plaster Town Cop

Helter Skelter posted:

I would be really worried about accessory availability for a P7, though. Holsters and mags in particular.

They are awesome shooters, though.

Popular kydex holsters are available for the P7 (CTAC, etc.) and mags are always available, and though they may be a bit expensive, you're already in expensive mag territory if you're talking about a PPS.

Edit: Just checked CDNN and PPS mags are $45 while P7M8 mags are $60. Once you're above $30 per mag, it's not like you're going to be buying a ton of them.

infrared35 fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jun 19, 2010

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