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Strom Cuzewon posted:I don't have my copy to hand, but aren't there some shenanigans aboard the cryo-ship where the ship hands explicitly tell you Zak is travelling under an assumed name? Yeah, but that's because he actually is, under the fake name Darac Livu (obviously based on his sisters' names) and not because he's pretending to be Cheradenine. Toast Museum posted:Use of Weapons spoilers: The marksman bit is something I hadn't thought of, but makes sense, and there's many points in the story where he's nearly dying and struggling with his identity, with many references to ships and chairs, and at one point even exclaiming "El...!" before losing consciousness. I've already referenced those, but like you said, their not really linguistic/textual flourishes.
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Feb 7, 2017 14:48
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Taeke posted:Yeah, but that's because he actually is, under the fake name Darac Livu (obviously based on his sisters' names) and not because he's pretending to be Cheradenine. Darn. Would you be able to share your thesis with us once it's completed? Would be fascinating to read.
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Feb 7, 2017 15:06
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The beginning chapters of UoW do some work to obfuscate the structure of the book. There are those concurrent chapters that take place on beach side civilizations (I don't think it's the same planet) where you might assume his flashback about the woman he fails to protect from the rear end in a top hat native in his little bungalow takes place in the same general time and location as the following chapter where Contact eventually finds him on his own private island. That chapter also references his recent assassination of the Ethnarc, so it's doing some work to hide the divergent timelines from you. I forget when the moment comes in the book where you realize how things are playing out, since I was aware of the structure going in to it.
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Feb 7, 2017 15:12
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Darn. I was planning to do that anyway, because I've asked this thread for help before and it's been a big inspiration, but I'm warning you now it's a pretty crappy BA thesis so far. Half of it is a sort of rambling explanation of the concepts of play and games in relation to literature that's not really that interesting but still a required set up for my actual analysis. I really just wish my thesis supervisor would get back to me on the theoretical section to confirm that I've finally got all that properly worked out. Max posted:The beginning chapters of UoW do some work to obfuscate the structure of the book. There are those concurrent chapters that take place on beach side civilizations (I don't think it's the same planet) where you might assume his flashback about the woman he fails to protect from the rear end in a top hat native in his little bungalow takes place in the same general time and location as the following chapter where Contact eventually finds him on his own private island. That chapter also references his recent assassination of the Ethnarc, so it's doing some work to hide the divergent timelines from you. I forget when the moment comes in the book where you realize how things are playing out, since I was aware of the structure going in to it. Interesting point, but I'll have to re-read those chapters. I seem to remember the structure being pretty clear to me from the start, although admittedly that's been years ago. Still, it's a bit outside of the scope of my argument, and since I only have 11k or so to work with I have to be selective.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:55
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People who don't like Consider Phlebas: read Consider Phlebas as if it was Use of Weapons, only the main character works for the OTHER SIDE.
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Feb 7, 2017 18:19
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:People who don't like Consider Phlebas: I like Consider Phlebas because it enables Look to Windward to exist.
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Feb 7, 2017 19:46
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Taeke posted:I was planning to do that anyway, because I've asked this thread for help before and it's been a big inspiration, but I'm warning you now it's a pretty crappy BA thesis so far. Half of it is a sort of rambling explanation of the concepts of play and games in relation to literature that's not really that interesting but still a required set up for my actual analysis. Try re-reading those chapters without knowing about the backwards / forwards structure. I think it was meant to be a slow roll in terms of how its revealed.
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Feb 7, 2017 23:42
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I'm not sure when exactly I realized that the vignettes were reverse chronological, but it seemed pretty clear right away they were outside the thread of the other chapters.
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Feb 8, 2017 00:30
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If I remember the order correctly, it's Killing the Ethnarc, Contact decides to go recruit Zak, Zak has a bad time in his beach bungalow, Contact arrives at a coastal city. That order could seem to all be in the correct order to the uninformed reader, but I am obviously having a hard time judging that since I knew about the structural twist going in. The Prologue is clearly meant to be some other place and time. I feel like you're meant to have figured it out at this point, but when he's spending time with the poet and describes every scar on his body is when it's really spelled out to you, since he is in his old body at that point. Max fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 00:47
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I think we're meant to see that the Prologue in Use of Weapons takes place after he has the aneurysm, since it refers to his cut hair- something he only does as the lovely monks he's been defending as getting shelled.
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Feb 8, 2017 07:19
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Max posted:Try re-reading those chapters without knowing about the backwards / forwards structure. I think it was meant to be a slow roll in terms of how its revealed. Maybe it was because the chapters are counting back in Roman numerals that it was clear for me from the start, but I honestly don't really remember. That's also why I'm staying away from that aspect of the book. Like I said, it's only 11k words and I'm also discussing Player of Games, so I really have to be selective about what I include, which is why I chose to focus on linguistic/textual games that hint at Cheradenine being Elethiomel all along. That's what really stuck with me. After finishing the book I was like "What? No, wait, but there's him getting hit by a fragment of Darcksense's bones, and him being saved by the surgeons after attempting suicide, and it all made sense with his phobia for chairs and the stuff about the ship and everything." which, after rereading those passages, all were terrific feats of misdirection on the part of the author. It's like reading 'the police shot the man with a gun' and being primed to read it as the man holding a gun, only to find out the police was in the wrong and it was actually a phone or whatever, and they used a gun to shoot the man, you know?
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Feb 8, 2017 13:30
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Hey check it out, Ngaroe QiRia. https://twitter.com/simonjourno/status/831973595853172737
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Feb 16, 2017 03:48
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All this Use of Weapons talk makes me want to reread it. Matter was my introduction, UoW was next. I was pretty disappointed when i finished but may have just missed a whole chunk of the book while blasting through it. Killing Time from excession is probably my favorite mind. Just a balls out soldier.
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Feb 19, 2017 18:52
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Microcline posted:Banks played and was inspired by Civilization (see Excession), but Player of Games (1988) came out three years before Civilization (1991) and seven years before Catan (1995) kicked off the modern board game movement. He definitely played tabletop wargames in the 70s/80s for sure. Like, the real ones, not Risk or Axis and Allies
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Feb 20, 2017 09:32
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To quote something from one of the many critical studies I've collected on Banks for my thesis:Bridging Fantasies: A Critical Study of the Novels of Iain Banks, phd thesis by Martyn James Colebrook posted:In an interview with David Garnett, Banks discussed his use of games, stating that he used to make up games that were ‘usually incredibly complicated…if not unplayable, then unmarketable.’ (Garnett 1989: 54) He likened the process to writing a novel in terms of the ultimate satisfaction derived. His admission that he is ‘more of a strategy games fan’ (Garnett 1989: 54) reveals that he employs such a range of games in his novels because they form part of his narrative strategy, representing control and tactics to force the reader into a contest. As he explains in an interview with Ed Ricketts: Banks really, really loved games, which is obvious throughout his work. He didn't just play games, he invented them, except they always turned out to be too grand to be actually playable.
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Feb 20, 2017 10:19
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ptkfvk posted:All this Use of Weapons talk makes me want to reread it. Matter was my introduction, UoW was next. I was pretty disappointed when i finished but may have just missed a whole chunk of the book while blasting through it. One of my co-workers just started in on Culture stuff when it brother sent him a copy of Surface Detail and I pretty much ordered him to read everything else ASAP so I can talk to him about it. ptkfvk posted:Killing Time from excession is probably my favorite mind. Just a balls out soldier. Mistake Not… is probably my favorite, but then again I'm a fan of all of the eccentrics especially when SC is involved.
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Feb 21, 2017 04:54
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Taeke posted:He didn't just play games, he invented them, except they always turned out to be too grand to be actually playable. A typical wargamer, then.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:00
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Inspector_666 posted:Mistake Not… is probably my favorite, but then again I'm a fan of all of the eccentrics especially when SC is involved. That's probably my favorite, too since just it's full name is enough to scare other ships away from loving with it, with the FOTNMC a close second.
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Feb 21, 2017 16:44
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I was a pretty big fan of Sleeper Service. I just like the weirdos who gently caress off to do their own thing. Mistake Not... was a pretty cool guy too.
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Feb 21, 2017 16:50
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cis autodrag posted:I was a pretty big fan of Sleeper Service. I just like the weirdos who gently caress off to do their own thing. Mistake Not... was a pretty cool guy too. And of course Grey Area, which meatfucked off to do its own thing.
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Feb 21, 2017 19:47
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Strawman posted:And of course Grey Area, which meatfucked off to do its own thing. Yes, him too. Basically eccentrics are the best and in my headcanon the excession was just another eccentric who hosed off to somewhere that it learned to do some crazy cool poo poo in and came back just to gently caress with special circumstances.
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Feb 21, 2017 19:57
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I like Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints from Surface Detail the most for some reason. Probably for some subconscious embarrassing thing for bad boys who ride the line Top Gun style. :| I am not proud.
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Feb 21, 2017 20:19
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I don't like the mistake not because I felt like it didn't need the full name dramatic reveal. Mistake not makes it perfectly clear all by itself.
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Feb 21, 2017 22:13
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andrew smash posted:I don't like the mistake not because I felt like it didn't need the full name dramatic reveal. Mistake not makes it perfectly clear all by itself. Yeah, the name/reveal felt a little try-hard and out of place to me. Might've been more fitting for a GFCF ship.
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Feb 21, 2017 22:20
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I thought it was fitting because the ship's personality is pretty clearly portrayed as it having an extremely high opinion of itself but also being a bit immature. It fits that it would give itself kind of an overwrought "badass" name.
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Feb 21, 2017 22:24
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Mistake Not took its name from an in-joke among other Culture ships, I think, it wasn't just something that it came up with by itself. And like the Gzilt ship admitted, Culture ships are known for not making exaggerated claims about their capabilities.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:24
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So, I started Use of Weapons and Player of Games 4 years ago, bounced off them a bit, and then moved. Found them in my storage unit and read those and Surface Detail in a total of four or five days. What's a good place to go next? I have Against a Dark Background, but I'm jonesing for some Culture stuff.
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May 23, 2017 14:43
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Ugly In The Morning posted:So, I started Use of Weapons and Player of Games 4 years ago, bounced off them a bit, and then moved. The Hydrogen Sonata is really pretty darn good. Consider Phlebas is sorta ehh okay, but its sequelish Look to Windward is awesome. Haven't actually read Matter. Inversions is dessert afterwards.
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May 23, 2017 14:58
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Ugly In The Morning posted:So, I started Use of Weapons and Player of Games 4 years ago, bounced off them a bit, and then moved. poo poo, you're probably gonna love anything from the Culture. Excession, Inversions, Look to Windward, hell, Consider Phlebas is enjoyable. I haven't read Against a Dark Background, but you may as well read it if you have it. If you like Banks's style you'll likely end up with his whole bibliography.
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May 23, 2017 14:59
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I'm just gonna go bugfuck nuts on amazon, then. I loved Player of Games. That ending, man. I kind of figured the epilogue twist with the drone, but the Emporer going bugfuck nuts and doing the mass suicide thing was totally unexpected but made perfect sense, and it kind of seemed like maybe Gurgeh was raised from birth to go and play Azad as some kind of long-term SC plan. Loved it.
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May 23, 2017 15:02
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divabot posted:The Hydrogen Sonata is really pretty darn good. Consider Phlebas is sorta ehh okay, but its sequelish Look to Windward is awesome. Haven't actually read Matter. Inversions is dessert afterwards. Hydrogen Sonata should come last. You should read the culture books he wrote before 2000 as the first generation, then the ones he wrote after 2008 as the second generation (there's a very noticeable change in style after he took that long break), and finish with Hydrogen Sonata. Oh and Windward should probably be read after Phlebas, yeah. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 15:10 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 23, 2017 15:07
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I'll take your advice, then. Man, I haven't gotten this into a sci-fi author since I powered through Ellison's short stories years ago. And as for a setting, never. I like how it's well-thought out but never really relies on technobabble. Anything that will be used later in the story is set up as one of many minor details earlier on.
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May 23, 2017 15:15
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If you are interested in how minds interact with each other, Excession is a pretty fun read. It's very different from his other books and some people don't like it because it features a lot of scenes of minds just talking to each other, but I thought it was an interesting insight on how they operated from a viewpoint that wasn't human-centric.
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May 23, 2017 15:19
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Just read them in publication order, I don't see a reason for putting together a weird book playlist 
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May 23, 2017 15:23
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Powaqoatse posted:Just read them in publication order, I don't see a reason for putting together a weird book playlist Thought about doing that, but my understanding is that there are some books that flesh out the setting more than others. It's not a direct series of sequels, so I figured I'd go with some recommendations.
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May 23, 2017 15:25
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Powaqoatse posted:Just read them in publication order, I don't see a reason for putting together a weird book playlist This is what I did and it was fine. That said, Look to Windward is Banks' greatest work in my opinion. Also, thanks for the Vernor Vinge rec a while back. I'm now about 1/3 of the way through Children of the Sky and drat do I love me some dogbros and some spiderbros. It's kind of satisfying that for the most part I hate the human characters because even the ones that are "good guys" are too often doing stupid poo poo that makes things worse due to their emotional blind spots and such. Pham Nuwen is an exception obvs.
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May 23, 2017 15:43
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Oh btw as for post-Banks recommendations: I think I mentioned him earlier but Ken MacLeod has some good stuff. Also he's Scot who writes about weird future societies and AIs 
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May 23, 2017 16:00
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Ugly In The Morning posted:What's a good place to go next? I have Against a Dark Background, but I'm jonesing for some Culture stuff. Against A Dark Background is dark, bleak, sad, and depressing. It's also packed with amazing set piece scenes that are (early) Banks at his best. I love it, your mileage may vary.
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May 23, 2017 18:49
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Also be aware that Banks eventually wrote an epilogue to Against a Dark Background and posted it online.Ugly In The Morning posted:Thought about doing that, but my understanding is that there are some books that flesh out the setting more than others. It's not a direct series of sequels, so I figured I'd go with some recommendations. Eh, honestly, publication order's probably best and safest. They're mostly not direct sequels, but Banks builds the world more with each book and it feels easiest reading in publication order. And there are callbacks - Matter mentions Excession, Surface Detail references back to Use of Weapons, Look to Windward is a big reflection on the events of Consider Phlebas, The State of the Art continues a character from Use of Weapons, and there's a few others I can't recall right now. You really don't have to at all, but it's probably the best experience in the end. And so as not to build expectations, be aware that Inversions isn't usually published with 'A Culture Novel' on the front for a reason. It's not a Culture novel. But sometimes it does have that written there. Because. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 11:13 on May 24, 2017 |
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May 24, 2017 10:42
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Ugly In The Morning posted:So, I started Use of Weapons and Player of Games 4 years ago, bounced off them a bit, and then moved. Look to Windward is arguably the best Culture book and Use of Weapons is arguably the only prerequisite book for it, so read Look to Windward next.
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May 26, 2017 02:52
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