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angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Oven Wrangler

I'd also guess that 400w is insufficient for a server-sized UPS. Even if this UPS is supposed to be OK with the poor power quality, it's not gonna be ok with the voltage dropping below an acceptable level when it starts drawing power.

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Javid
Oct 21, 2004

My sole partiality is to that delectable spiced meat. Any additional confederation of vegetables shall not compromise the pie as I see it.

What's the difference between this thing consuming AC to make DC to charge a battery, and the 37 other devices on this power currently doing the exact same thing normally? And all of those don't specifically have "can clean weird power" in their documentation

The only information I have on the draw of the actual UPS itself is that it takes "about 3-4 hours" to accumulate a "full" charge on the batteries (12v 18ah x2). I will never have even NEARLY 400w of stuff attached to it otherwise.

E: here's what I'm dealing with

Javid posted:

Some pics of the solar setup at a homestead I'm visiting for another thread. They belong here, though. Pardon the lovely photos, I was in a hurry and didn't realize how gross that lens was

The whole setup in the solar shed:


The entire battery "array"


That feeds this inverter which feeds the house (white plug)


The white plug's wire is cut and wire nutted onto romex under the bench:


The Romex goes into PVC which runs underground to the "cabin" where it feeds a tiny panel with like 4 breakers. The cabin is basically the grade of prefab shed sold in home depot's parking lot, with some insulation stuffed into the 2x3 framing (lmao) and covered with quarter inch plywood, but that disaster is beyond the scope of this post

The panels outside:



The framing horrifies me but it's never fallen over even in the ridiculous wind they get here, so I guess it's good enough?

They flog those poor batteries to death every night, which is a vicious cycle of reduced capacities. I don't know how they function on this poo poo.

Javid fucked around with this message at 20:47 on May 11, 2020

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Oven Wrangler

Javid posted:

The only information I have on the draw of the actual UPS itself is that it takes "about 3-4 hours" to accumulate a "full" charge on the batteries (12v 18ah x2). I will never have even NEARLY 400w of stuff attached to it otherwise.

Well I can't find a UPS with your specs in a quick Google search, but I did find several which listed their max 120V amp draw which is important to your problem. Understand that inverters, especially cheap ones tend to overstate their capacity as well. 400W is on the small side too, just generally speaking. That's small enough to be powered via cigarette lighter.

Also you have losses, including your connection via clamps which introduces resistance. For something that is power sensitive like a UPS, a dip in voltage at the start of charging could be enough to kick up an alarm and stop the charging cycle. But this is all guesswork without knowing the specs on your UPS, or the voltage output of your inverter when the issue is occurring.

Is the UPS fully charged off-site already, or are you also trying to charge it initially via your 400w inverter?

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





UPSes also monitor the condition of the inbound power to decide if it should be running on utility or on battery. If the incoming power is already a square-wave mess, it's going to have a hard time telling the difference.

If there's already a 12V battery bank and inverter in play, is there an option to upgrade those - more battery and a better inverter?

KKKLIP ART
Sep 3, 2004



Looking at my local stuff, it seems like they don't care about wiring outlets in series vs. parallel. Seems like wiring in a series is "easier" and every outlet i've replaced in the past seems to have been wired that way. Other than simplicity (or maybe work box size), is there any big benefit to it? I like the idea that if one outlet gets funky, the rest still work. It also appears that first in branch GFCI should be in series instead of parallel. Don't most outlets have a metal strip that essentialy makes everything in parallel anyway>

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005



You're misunderstanding what series and parallel mean. Your outlets may be, and quite likely are, wired in a string such that a cable comes into one, out and on to the next one, but that's very different from being in series because that cable has (at least) two wires one connecting all the hot sides of all the outlets and the other connecting all the neutral sides of all the outlets.

A series connection would mean connecting one outlet's neutral to the next one's hot terminal, a situation analogous to plumbing your toilet drain straight into the downstairs kitchen faucet. You'd only be able to fill the kitchen sink if you were flushing upstairs at the same time, and at best you'd fill it with piss.

shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 23:45 on May 11, 2020

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.


What's the go to for LED replacements for tube florescents?

There seems to be a ton of options, and with LEDs being cheap I know it's a minefield of cheap crap, as well as performance concerns with turn on time. There's also the choice between drop in replacements and removing the ballast.

I'm perfectly OK removing the ballast and replacing the tombstones.I think they're all T12 right now, except for the kitchen where I did the ballast and swapped over to T8 soon after we bought the place... 20 year old house and that's probably the most used of the tubes. Now the laundry room light is starting to go bad, and we also have a closet fixture and 2 fixtures in the garage that could be swapped.

Only caveat is that I need 2' lamps for the closet and laundry room. The kitchen and garage are 4' fixtures.


Also, separate but slightly related question: are those wago/whoever clip on wire nuts legal to leave in with unused terminals? Wondering if I should buy both 2- and 3- port nuts, or just a big box of 3-port.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran

DaveSauce posted:

What's the go to for LED replacements for tube florescents?

There seems to be a ton of options, and with LEDs being cheap I know it's a minefield of cheap crap, as well as performance concerns with turn on time. There's also the choice between drop in replacements and removing the ballast.

I'm perfectly OK removing the ballast and replacing the tombstones.I think they're all T12 right now, except for the kitchen where I did the ballast and swapped over to T8 soon after we bought the place... 20 year old house and that's probably the most used of the tubes. Now the laundry room light is starting to go bad, and we also have a closet fixture and 2 fixtures in the garage that could be swapped.

Only caveat is that I need 2' lamps for the closet and laundry room. The kitchen and garage are 4' fixtures.


Also, separate but slightly related question: are those wago/whoever clip on wire nuts legal to leave in with unused terminals? Wondering if I should buy both 2- and 3- port nuts, or just a big box of 3-port.

I got 4' and 2' replacement LED lamps from philips at Lowe's a few years ago. Remove the ballast, but they're bi-pin replacement lamps, so that's all you do. They've been running strong with no flicker.

Yes, you can have unused terminals in the clip nuts.

Elem7
Apr 12, 2003
der

Dinosaur Gum

During a recent subpanel circuit upgrade project I'd asked about awhile ago I discovered many sketchy wiring issues after opening up the drywall in various places and there's one minor situation I'm looking for some advice on. I discovered what appears to be a run of cable that by all appearances was cut in the middle on purpose, it's a clean cut, abandoned and then drywalled over. I have no idea what purpose it ever served or where the 2 ends lead to but it isn't live so I'm not hugely concerned its a fire risk but that said I'm not real comfortable just leaving it in the wall as is not knowing where they lead.

I'm sure the most correct answer is to remove it but I'm not willing to go on a magical drywall cutting journey to follow the 2 ends wherever they go, obviously. Failing that the next best option would seem to be stripping both ends and capping the wires with wire nuts but there's not enough slack there to pull either end into a junction box and I'm not sure doing that then leaving them hanging in the joist bay is any better than the current situation. What would a goon electrician do if this was in their own house? Tape the ends and leave em?

corgski
Feb 6, 2007



NEC only universally mandates the removal of abandoned low voltage wiring. In most situations you can leave everything else where it is inside the wall. Only accessible portions (e.g. runs in crawlspaces or unfinished attics) must be removed.

Personally, assuming I couldnít tone it out and label it on both ends Iíd wire nut it and leave it.

corgski fucked around with this message at 06:00 on May 14, 2020

Hubis
May 18, 2003

Boy, I wish we had one of those doomsday machines...

corgski posted:

NEC only universally mandates the removal of abandoned low voltage wiring.

Huh, really? What's the rationale behind that, I wonder?

tater_salad
Sep 15, 2007


Hubis posted:

Huh, really? What's the rationale behind that, I wonder?

yes it's strange to me to be able to leave a live 120v wire in a wall without box, but a 12 or 24v wire is verboten

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Because some handyman or joe homeowner is gonna hook it up to mains voltage.

As with nearly all things code, this happened a lot when whole home low volt lighting made it's sputtering debut full of proprietary systems that manufacturers promptly abandoned and homeowners were left with no parts to keep the system that lit their entire house or first floor running. They were left with a hole in a closet full of home-run low volt wiring to every fixture and switch plate.

Want to guess what happened next?

Motronic fucked around with this message at 11:49 on May 15, 2020

tater_salad
Sep 15, 2007


ahh I haven't seen homes where this was prevalent but yeah I can see joe DIY seeing a wire and thinking Hey I can totally just wire nut this together and it'll be ezpz.. As their house burns down from running mains through 18awg. I was thinking low voltage lines like phone wire etc.. but googling shows me NEC doesn't really consider those to be low voltage.

tater_salad fucked around with this message at 12:46 on May 15, 2020

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Grimey Drawer

My folks bought a house that has all low voltage controls. The previous owner built it in the 50's and his wife was terrified that the electricity would get her through the wall. It seems the place is well known among local electricians, whenever they come in to where I work they always ask if I'm related to the people with crazy wiring.

I'll see if I can get some pictures next time I'm there, it's pretty neat.

KKKLIP ART
Sep 3, 2004



This is an ignorance thing but is there anything inherently more or less of a pain in the rear end about low voltage other than it is just uncommon for most residential applications?

Hubis
May 18, 2003

Boy, I wish we had one of those doomsday machines...

Motronic posted:

Because some handyman or joe homeowner is gonna hook it up to mains voltage.

As with nearly all things code, this happened a lot when whole home low volt lighting made it's sputtering debut full of proprietary systems that manufacturers promptly abandoned and homeowners were left with no parts to keep the system that lit their entire house or first floor running. They were left with a hole in a closet full of home-run low volt wiring to every fixture and switch plate.

Want to guess what happened next?

Ahh, yeah. I was thinking Ethernet/POTS lines, didn't think about low voltage lighting.

Of course knowing one another from the home automation thread, I am sure you appreciate how funny it is that almost the same thing is happening all over again...

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Grimey Drawer

KKKLIP ART posted:

This is an ignorance thing but is there anything inherently more or less of a pain in the rear end about low voltage other than it is just uncommon for most residential applications?

My context is industrial where I'm switching large power loads, motors, rectifiers, so using 120V or 24VDC makes sense. Otherwise it'd be all old school Frankenstein's lab where someone would have to pull a giant handle to make a circuit. Arc flash be damned. Solenoids save a ton of time, effort, and are worth it.

Now do the same thing with a proprietary sensor suite and control module made by WoopHome Automation that is a startup that is barely scraping by and not say, Siemens or Rockwell Automation on the industrial side. So once WoopHome goes broke you've got a hybrid 18VDC system with an internal control logic that is, of course, locked behind some non-open source firewall. I can still buy parts direct from Rockwell for a controller made when I was in grade school.

In a nutshell you've added a ton of complexity. Deciding whether or not it's worth it is up to you and your wallet.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

KKKLIP ART posted:

This is an ignorance thing but is there anything inherently more or less of a pain in the rear end about low voltage other than it is just uncommon for most residential applications?

Well covered already, but the key word in your question is "uncommon".

Hubis posted:

Ahh, yeah. I was thinking Ethernet/POTS lines, didn't think about low voltage lighting.

Of course knowing one another from the home automation thread, I am sure you appreciate how funny it is that almost the same thing is happening all over again...

Because people don't learn from history.

All of my home automation control devices that are wired into mains power function as standalone units to do all of the things you expect (turn lights on and off) and will be fine even if all of the automation goes away. They are Honewell (therefore of known quality and certification, not alibaba whoknowswhat) and zwave. Even if and when that protocol goes away, the only thing I lose is the ability to control them remotely, not locally.

The people doing things other ways are setting themselves up for future pain and failure because they can't be arsed to spend the time or money to run proper high volt circuits connected to things like this that are easily swappable later with a "dumb" version or even the "next greatest thing".

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


So I am trying to wrap my head around a work wiring/power setup. I have been digging down the rabbit hole but am a little lost

I have a 20a 208v 3 phase outlet. The receptacle is a Hubble (non-NEMA) HBL2510 pictured below. How is this different from a NEMA L18-20R?



From my research, each of those phases to neutral delivers 120v. That is what our current PDUs do out of these outlets. 3 phase 208v in - a bunch of 120v outlets across all 3 phases out.

I am searching for new PDU that can take this 208v 3 phase in, and ideally give us some 240v outlets (C19). I do not believe this is possible without a transformer.

The new equipment says it can operate on with an input voltage of 180v - 265v.

What would the ideal solution here be? I was hoping we could just have the Hubble receptacles swapped out for something different, then slap in PDUs that have some C19 208v outlets and everyone is happy?

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Oven Wrangler

I'll leave the plug/receptacle part to someone more familiar with that, but yeah 120/240/208 is a delta utility supply, while you're on what's more common now for small commercial 3-phase, 120/208 wye. You could absolutely get a transformer but that's a lot of cost. It makes more sense to get equipment that is compatible with 120/208v - and it sounds like your new PDUs are equipment is?

angryrobots fucked around with this message at 16:52 on May 15, 2020

kid sinister
Nov 16, 2002


NEMA L18-20R is 4-pole, no ground. That Hubbell you posted is NEMA L21-20R, which is 4-pole with ground. You see that hole in the middle? That's the ground prong. Also, the bends on the index pins go opposite ways for L18 and L21, so both will not fit in the other.

Also, you can't get 240V like you intend from 3 phase easily.

kid sinister fucked around with this message at 16:46 on May 15, 2020

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Phase to phase is 208v. No neutral necessary, and it's unlikely anything you have that takes 240v won't also accept 208v just fine.

There are tons of commercial PDUs that do this. It's quite common. Good ones will make it obvious which 208v outlets are on which phases so you can properly balance. You'll have XY, YZ, and ZX.

Edit: I'm using these globally now and have been for the past 3 or 4 years: https://www.servertech.com/power-di...u-vertical-2N36

Motronic fucked around with this message at 16:44 on May 15, 2020

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Oven Wrangler

kid sinister posted:


Also, you can't get 240V from 3 phase, only 208V.

Lol that's fundamentally untrue.

Motronic posted:

and it's unlikely anything you have that takes 240v won't also accept 208v just fine.


This is also very important.

angryrobots fucked around with this message at 16:45 on May 15, 2020

kid sinister
Nov 16, 2002


angryrobots posted:

Lol that's fundamentally untrue.

Crap, you're right. I need to complete my thoughts before I post.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


Holy hell, thanks for all the fast responses.

So is the current outlet identical to the L21-20R?

So in theory, this PDU would with a L21-20P would work?

https://www.tripplite.com/5.7kw-3-p...a~PDU3MV6L2120B

That would give me 6x L6-20R per PDU, then "normal" 5-15/20R as well.

I could just get some different power cords for the equipment, since they come with C19.

stupid puma
Apr 25, 2005



I just removed an outdoor flood light and circular ceiling light box that was installed in my wood soffit and installed an old work outlet box with outdoor outlet and cover so I can plug in string lights and flip them on and off from within the house. Everything works fine and the box is 100% secure but the aesthetic problem Iíve discovered is that you can still see the old ceiling box hole around the sides of the new outdoor outlet cover.

I have to believe that some kind of outlet conversion base plate exists for a situation like this to cover up the exposed parts of the hole but I searched for that an came up empty. I guess I could putty and sand around the box but Iíd really rather not, particularly since the next homeowner may want an outdoor light there again. Anybody know whether something like this exists and what itís called?

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Moey posted:

Holy hell, thanks for all the fast responses.

So is the current outlet identical to the L21-20R?

So in theory, this PDU would with a L21-20P would work?

https://www.tripplite.com/5.7kw-3-p...a~PDU3MV6L2120B

That would give me 6x L6-20R per PDU, then "normal" 5-15/20R as well.

I could just get some different power cords for the equipment, since they come with C19.

I mean....sure, that will work. Is there any reason you chose THAT PDU rather than one that has the outputs you actually want on it? Do you even need 120v at all?

Thermopyle
Jul 1, 2003

...the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. óBertrand Russell



I keep confusing myself on this.

If I'm using CT sensors to measure current on a 220v appliance (heat pump water heater) for the purposes of estimating cost to run, do I need to measure both legs and add them? I think that's correct since I'm sure some components of the appliance are just 110v, but I'm not very confident in that.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


Motronic posted:

I mean....sure, that will work. Is there any reason you chose THAT PDU rather than one that has the outputs you actually want on it? Do you even need 120v at all?

Yeah, 120v would likely get used in the future and all of the power cords for the "normal" stuff we just use 5-15/20 instead of C13.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Moey posted:

Yeah, 120v would likely get used in the future and all of the power cords for the "normal" stuff we just use 5-15/20 instead of C13.

Okay, but there exist PDUs that can be configured to have the C20s on them rather than looking for some oddball power cords for machines.

I've never seen a reasonable installation with a PDU that has any kind of 5-15Rs or twist lock outlets on it. Racks, clearances, power cables that are normally shipped, etc are basically assuming C14 and/or C20 on the PDU. If you really need a standard 120v outlet that is typically accomplished with a C13 to 5-15R cable. Almost nothing needs this, other than some annoying power bricks which is exactly why you want the jumper cable adapter to deal with them. And, to be honest I haven't seen a wall wart like that in the last decade that didn't also take 110-240v at 50-60Hz. meaning it's hard to imagine why you would need that 120v. And even if you do you almost definitely don't want it in the form of a 5-15R.

Maybe you have an odd setup, but I'm just providing a perspective from someone who been deploying racks all over the world for most of their career. I'm currently shipping around a standard setup who's only config difference between any country (well, other than japan, because of course they have two different grids, so I have two Japan standards) are the detachable power cables on the PDUs so I can use a locally-standard outlet in the facility. This gear is running on local power ranging from 210v to 240v and 50 to 60Hz. Nothing cares anymore. It's all switching power supplies made to work on any country's power because stocking more SKUs is expensive.

Motronic fucked around with this message at 19:28 on May 15, 2020

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Oven Wrangler

Thermopyle posted:

I keep confusing myself on this.

If I'm using CT sensors to measure current on a 220v appliance (heat pump water heater) for the purposes of estimating cost to run, do I need to measure both legs and add them? I think that's correct since I'm sure some components of the appliance are just 110v, but I'm not very confident in that.

Measure both legs, and use the number from the higher leg (if one is higher) for instantaneous current usage..... But electricity consumption on that appliance in particular is very dependent on individual usage. For instance, if you regularly have heavy hot water use that bumps the unit out of heat pump mode into resistance heat.

If you want an accurate reading, you'll need to hook up a recording meter.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


Motronic posted:

Okay, but there exist PDUs that can be configured to have the C20s on them rather than looking for some oddball power cords for machines.

I've never seen a reasonable installation with a PDU that has any kind of 5-15Rs or twist lock outlets on it. Racks, clearances, power cables that are normally shipped, etc are basically assuming C14 and/or C20 on the PDU. If you really need a standard 120v outlet that is typically accomplished with a C13 to 5-15R cable. Almost nothing needs this, other than some annoying power bricks which is exactly why you want the jumper cable adapter to deal with them. And, to be honest I haven't seen a wall wart like that in the last decade that didn't also take 110-240v at 50-60Hz. meaning it's hard to imagine why you would need that 120v. And even if you do you almost definitely don't want it in the form of a 5-15R.

Maybe you have an odd setup, but I'm just providing a perspective from someone who been deploying racks all over the world for most of their career. I'm currently shipping around a standard setup who's only config difference between any country (well, other than japan, because of course they have two different grids, so I have two Japan standards) are the detachable power cables on the PDUs so I can use a locally-standard outlet in the facility. This gear is running on local power ranging from 210v to 240v and 50 to 60Hz. Nothing cares anymore. It's all switching power supplies made to work on any country's power because stocking more SKUs is expensive.

I have seen a ton of 0U PDUs across my carreer with 5-15R. As well as C13/C19. None with L6-20R though.

Really no difference for me. As long as I can source some sane length power cords to keep poo poo tidy.

This new piece of gear in question is a Ciena 8700.

Thermopyle
Jul 1, 2003

...the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. óBertrand Russell



angryrobots posted:

Measure both legs, and use the number from the higher leg (if one is higher) for instantaneous current usage..... But electricity consumption on that appliance in particular is very dependent on individual usage. For instance, if you regularly have heavy hot water use that bumps the unit out of heat pump mode into resistance heat.

If you want an accurate reading, you'll need to hook up a recording meter.

Yeah, I'll be recording the data over time.

Thanks for the info. Can you explain the reason it's the higher leg that should be measured?

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Just make sure you have clearance to the the left and right side power supplies out of that thing while the PDU is installed and things are plugged in. Those are the details/logistics that makes assembling a good, reliable, long term rack elevation engineering as opposed to luck or "oops, we're gonna have an outage maintenance window."

And I too have seen a lot of 5-15R PDUs. Decades ago, and in amateur hour places to be perfectly honest.

I HAVE one of those - on my home rack. It was a discard when I was cleaning up one of those dumpster fires. I'll be okay of I have to shut down my plex server for a few minutes. My telecom customers don't take that kind of outage so kindly.

Again, do what you think is right for your situation. I'm just presenting modern best practices and industry norms here.

corgski
Feb 6, 2007



I install 5-15R PDUs all the time. They're extremely handy when you're building racks to go out on tour, or just racking up a venue's worth of audio, video, and lighting control.

In a DC I don't know why you'd use one.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

corgski posted:

In a DC I don't know why you'd use one.

The be clear, that's what I'm talking about and seemingly what Moey is talking about if he's racking 6 figure DWDM gear.

corgski
Feb 6, 2007



Absolutely, I'm just emphasizing that they have a use which is not at all what is being attempted here. Nobody cares if there's a risk of powering down your entire rack when swapping gear in entertainment because you don't ever need 100% uptime, not even at Disney.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Yep yep, we're on the same page (along with my home rack). Sorry if that came off wrong.

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Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


Outside of colo datacenter stuff, I am talking about entirely smaller shop on-prem "server rooms".

None the less, I am not arguing that C13 PDUs for 120v gear isn't more or less the standard. I am just mentioning what I have inherited across my career.

Looking back, the last few full racks I have rented from a datacenter had 5-15R PDUs. Unsure if that was requested by someone above me.

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