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Thanks guys, not surprised since this isn't the first questionable wiring decision I've found. Guess I'll add this to the list of things to fix *sigh*
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Jan 19, 2021 09:15
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kecske posted:I'm fairly certain that water is the issue - either finding it's way in to the shower casing or steam condensing in the ceiling switch and tracking across the terminals. Even though domestic rcbos are single pole and only interrupt the live conductor, they will also detect a neutral to earth short fault and trip even though the circuit is switched off. It only takes a drop of condensation to form in the hour or so after your shower to short the neutral and earth together. I'll check the shower casing for any obvious issues. The power switch is in the hall rather than the ceiling of the bathroom, so I'd doubt it's seeing much in the way of condensation. Thanks.
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Jan 20, 2021 06:48
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My mom called me and wanted me to move a light switch in their basement. I didn't take my meter because I know my dad has every tool every known to man (if he can find where he left them). Shut the breaker off, and I need to test the circuit. I go to the garage, and I could only find a cheap Harbor Freight meter. I don't know where the nice Fluke I gave him is. I figure, I'm just testing for voltage on 120V, this should be fine. My friends, it was not fine. When I powered the circuit back up and tested it, it smoked SO fast. I went and grabbed my fluke and tested everything before buttoning up the job. Don't use cheap electrical meters. I wasn't wearing gloves, so I'm lucky I didn't get burned.
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Jan 21, 2021 00:45
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I think this has been brought up multiple times in the tools thread(s) but yeah.....don't use cheap meters for anything other than low volt low amp. There are plenty of videos you really don't want to watch of cheap meters blowing up in ways that are very conducive to hurting their operator.
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Jan 21, 2021 01:00
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Stairwell light switches.... Not so sure why it seems to be so hard on the East Coast. Used to just be two illuminated three ways. With laundry rooms, utility rooms, and bathrooms all moving to occupancy switches I've been trying to get my stairs to work with an occupancy switch and a regular switch with no luck. Basically what I want is when you open the door at the top of the basement steps the light turns automatically and shuts off after five minutes. The bottom of the stairs is an open area that simply needs a manual switch to turn on the lights when you walk up the stairs that will turn off automatically after five minutes. The closest I've come was a hosed up wiring of two Leviton switches (basically wired as two single pole switches, not 3 ways) but the best I could get was one minute of light before shutoff (even though configured for five.) Anyhow, posed the question to an electrician buddy and he seemed to think I was using the wrong switch--basically saying I don't want to two switches (top one set to occupancy, bottom one set to vacancy/manual), but instead want a Switch ( IPS15-1LZ ) and a Remote (IPV0R-1LZ ). Got these installed--and light turns on automatically at the top step and stays on for 5 minutes. But the bottom switch is now occupancy too--so anytime some moves in the basement room the stair lights turn on. I feel like I'm the first one to do this... I can't be this hard. Haven't folks on the West Coast been doing this kind of thing for decades? What am I doing wrong and/or which switches should I be using? (Oh and with the occupancy switch (IPS06) on the top and a regular three way illuminated at the bottom--two things. One the instructions to wire the switch as a 3-way are different from 3-way wiring. And two, even if you do wire it as a three way it still doesn't work! Basically the illuminated switch at the bottom needs to be turned on and off again to trigger the light and leave the top switch functional...) HycoCam fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 01:41
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Are you using high draw fixtures such as halogens or incandescents in your stairwell? If you’re using LEDs you’d be better served focusing conservation efforts elsewhere before chasing down a 10-20w load that is only occasionally left on. An occupancy switch with one or more remote sensor is the “correct” way to do it, and triggering on any sensor is the intended behavior in that situation since that setup is usually used to meet fire exit lighting requirements in commercial and multi-unit residential construction. corgski fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 01:52
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movax posted:Speaking of low- / line-voltage never meeting, are there actual UL listed solutions for AC/DC supplies in a junction box? Thinking about security panels and just wanted to avoid the eye wart and literal wall wart of the supply that goes along with them. Doorbell transformers?
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Jan 21, 2021 02:04
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devicenull posted:Doorbell transformers? If those are kosher to shove in-wall somewhere / in a junction box somewhere, then I feel like, UL-listing aside, the guts of something like this, whether it's that literal one or I build it, should also be "OK" to put in a junction box?
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Jan 21, 2021 02:12
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corgski posted:Are you using high draw fixtures such as halogens or incandescents in your stairwell? If you’re using LEDs you’d be better served focusing conservation efforts elsewhere before chasing down a 10-20w load that is only occasionally left on. In the KISS department--turns out there is a real easy way to change the bottom remote into a manual only switch. You can pop off the cover and adjust the sensitivity. With that cover off--you can also stick a little piece of tape over the sensor... Doh! Poof--done.
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Jan 21, 2021 03:24
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You really, really want to have a proper divide between line voltage and low voltage, that's why doorbell xfrmrs are all designed to mount ON a junction box and not IN one.
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Jan 21, 2021 03:28
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devicenull posted:Doorbell transformers? Those don't put out the amperage needed by an alarm (it'll poo poo itself the first time the siren goes off, if it doesn't poo poo just from trying to put out enough current to both power the system and recharge the battery), nor are they very well regulated. And that's just taking it from plug-in wall wart to junction box surface mount wart. Then you run into the different power supply requirements of some of the more DIY friendly systems (a lot of which run on DC instead of AC, and lower voltages). The home/small office professional systems generally want 16.5VAC @ 40VA, a doorbell transformer is usually 10-20VA and runs anywhere from 8V to 24V. They're also not made to continuously put out their full rated power. OP, burglar alarms always use an external transformer. This is why the guts are usually buried in a closet, utility room, garage, etc. You already have a big metal can for the alarm itself, it's not meant to be someplace that you're staring at it. I've seen some installs where the power wires run through a wall, and have the transformer plugged in elsewhere (like by the furnace - my dad's house is this way, with the actual guts in a coat closet), but you can't go too far without running into voltage drop. Your homeowners insurance will drop you if they find out you're trying to power your alarm improperly, and there's a good chance a doorbell transformer will go up in smoke/flames. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 13:58
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I moved into a new place recently and several of the rooms have old school 2 prong outlets. The room being discussed in particular here to is to be used for expensive audio and computer equipment. Being unable to rewire the place (for a variety of reasons), and from the advice about our situation from a electrician at Lowes, we replaced the outlets in that room with GFCI outlets. We did notice that power outlet #3 actually had a ground wire inside so we connected that to that GFCI outlet. I have 2 semi-decent power conditioner / surge protector strips, one by Furman and one by Transparent. The Furman strip has a "Protection Active" indicator light, and the Transparent has that plus a "Line Fault" indicator light. Upon plugging the Transparent strip in any of the outlets in the room, the "Line Fault" light comes on, even outlet #3 which is grounded. The Furman strip's "Protection Active" light comes on in all of these outlets, but from what I understand that's not indicating anything other then proper internal operation, not the presence of an reliable external ground (which is necessary for actual proper operation / safety, right?) I tried the Transparent strip in other outlets in the house that were grounded - and the "Line Fault" light came on for some and not others. It didn't have this light on in my old place at all where it was plugged into a normal grounded outlet. I even took it back to verify. So here are my questions: Is it safe to be utilizing these power conditioner / strips with the GFCI outlets? Are they still providing their intended protection, or does the absence of a true ground wire in the wall eliminate their protection capabilities - for me or my equipment? For outlet #3 in the room, why would the Line Fault light still coming on given that we connected the ground wire? Is it something to do with the GFCI internal circuitry somehow messing with it? The fact that the Line Fault light was coming on for some of the three prong outlets and not others in this new place indicates that some of these outlets are not actually grounded, right? Thank you so much for you answers and information. This has been a very frustrating evening so far!
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Jan 25, 2021 05:37
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Big Bizness posted:I moved into a new place recently and several of the rooms have old school 2 prong outlets. The room being discussed in particular here to is to be used for expensive audio and computer equipment. Being unable to rewire the place (for a variety of reasons), and from the advice about our situation from a electrician at Lowes, we replaced the outlets in that room with GFCI outlets. We did notice that power outlet #3 actually had a ground wire inside so we connected that to that GFCI outlet. I would bet the ground wire in outlet #3 is not connected to ground, you can verify this with a multimeter if you'd like, there should be continuity between neutral and ground, and 120V between hot and ground. Actually, just buy a cheap outlet tester like this one that should tell you what outlets are actually grounded and which ones aren't, but yes you probably have some outlets that have been properly retrofitted with grounded cables, and some that just had three prong outlets slammed into boxes without a ground. Replacing the 2-prong outlets with GFCIs is the proper way to get a third prong, yes, and it's allowed by code, it provides better personnel protection, but doesn't give you a ground, or help protect equipment the way a grounded outlet would Your surge protectors will work without a ground, typically they have a bank of capacitors and/or MOVs between both hot and neutral and hot and ground, they will not work as well as if they had a proper ground.
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Jan 25, 2021 06:12
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Asking here, though maybe the HVAC thread (does that still exist?) is better. My electric baseboards don't seem to be heating enough, namely the one in the living room. 240V double pole, replaced the thermostat last year from the old dial, bi-metal style to a programmable one. It does turn on, but the heat seems a lot less than it used to be last winter. Like...it's set to 67, but never gets there, at least not if the outside temp is below 20F. It was on all day yesterday and only barely got to 67 by like 3 or 4 PM, and the oven being on a lot helped with that (living room and kitchen share a wall where the thermostat lives.) It goes to 58 overnight, and when I got up this morning to work from home, set it to 67, and it's only at 62 now, 3 hours later. I can put my bare hand on the baseboard, I feel like I shouldn't be able to do that? It should be hotter than that. Is it possible it's somehow only getting 1 leg of the 240V and is operating at 120? None of the breakers were tripped, and they're all double pole so it's not like only 1 leg could be off, but maybe something in the thermostat wiring is wrong? It worked last winter when I replaced it, so I'm not sure what cold have happened, but I guess I can take a look to verify. I know my house is not perfectly insulated, but again, last winter I had no problems getting the house/room to the set temp, so I feel like something happened to the thermostat or baseboard.
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Jan 25, 2021 16:06
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DrBouvenstein posted:
Usually, electric baseboards are only wired with 240 on a /2 wire (e.g. 12/2), because they don't need 120V. Unless yours is a strange setup, there shouldn't be 120v available. The obvious answer here is to examine what you changed: the thermostat. Did you keep the old one to swap in and see if that fixes it? If not, you might be able to purchase the most barebones (about $20) one you can to test with. To dig deeper, you could throw a clamp ammeter on the circuit in the panel to see what's going on, but that requires some familiarity with the dangers of doing so.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:50
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DrBouvenstein posted:Asking here, though maybe the HVAC thread (does that still exist?) is better. You'll need a voltage meter to check things out. You could start with the baseboard itself (the wiring compartments are generally easy to get in to, one end or the other) and see if there is 240V between the hot legs with the thermostat calling for heat. If there's not, check line side voltage on the thermostat and trace back from there. (Edit: or just start by testing the line and load sides of the thermostat) An amp test on either hot leg (as posted above) will tell you if the heater is powered and working (which would make me think maybe an intermittent therm problem.) If one leg is out the heater won't work at all, but you may find 120V from ground to either hot wire. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 19:41
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Elviscat posted:I would bet the ground wire in outlet #3 is not connected to ground, you can verify this with a multimeter if you'd like, there should be continuity between neutral and ground, and 120V between hot and ground. Thanks for the info. I did pick up one of those testers from Home Depot and confirmed that outlet #3 isn't actually grounded for some reason. Having an electrician visit Wednesday to see what can be done.
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Jan 26, 2021 01:19
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My basement utility area has unfinished walls so the dryer and other outlets are metal surface mount boxes fed with romex. I am going to frame out some walls about a foot away from the current foundation walls and want to move the outlets to a new, nearby wall and use non-surface boxes in the drywall attached to the new framing studs. My plan was to remove the outlets from the current boxes and run new non-romex wires from these boxes to the new locations. I'd be wirenutting the new wires to the old and then using a metal screwdown plate to close the old box. At the end the old boxes would be completely hidden behind the new drywall without any access. Is this acceptable? Anything I should be concerned about? Of course I will check that the new wires are the same gauge as the old ( guessing 10 for the 30amp dryer and 12 for the standard plugs ).
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Jan 26, 2021 22:21
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fankey posted:My basement utility area has unfinished walls so the dryer and other outlets are metal surface mount boxes fed with romex. I am going to frame out some walls about a foot away from the current foundation walls and want to move the outlets to a new, nearby wall and use non-surface boxes in the drywall attached to the new framing studs. My plan was to remove the outlets from the current boxes and run new non-romex wires from these boxes to the new locations. I'd be wirenutting the new wires to the old and then using a metal screwdown plate to close the old box. At the end the old boxes would be completely hidden behind the new drywall without any access. Is this acceptable? Anything I should be concerned about? Of course I will check that the new wires are the same gauge as the old ( guessing 10 for the 30amp dryer and 12 for the standard plugs ). Unacceptable, any splices made have to be accessible, they cannot be hidden under drywall. It's still going to be a laundry room, is there any reason you can't just move the old boxes to be flush with the drywall and use blank covers on them? When you say "non-romex wire" what specifically are you planning to use? The rest of your plan sounds fine.
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Jan 26, 2021 22:34
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Elviscat posted:Unacceptable, any splices made have to be accessible, they cannot be hidden under drywall. That makes sense. In this particular case it's probably possible to move the current boxes to an exposed wall surface to make them accessible. I'm curious - what would I have to do if that wasn't possible - complete new runs from the breaker box? My wire terminology was wrong - they are currently AC since they are exposed. I would like to run NM from the old boxes to the new behind the new wall.
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Jan 27, 2021 00:36
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fankey posted:That makes sense. In this particular case it's probably possible to move the current boxes to an exposed wall surface to make them accessible. I'm curious - what would I have to do if that wasn't possible - complete new runs from the breaker box? There is one and only one approved in-wall splice. But that's romex to romex so no....you can't use that in this application. So new runs or......you terminate the runs to an accessible and appropriate junction box (in this case just outside of your new space I suppose) and extend with new wire from there.
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Jan 27, 2021 00:52
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fankey posted:That makes sense. In this particular case it's probably possible to move the current boxes to an exposed wall surface to make them accessible. I'm curious - what would I have to do if that wasn't possible - complete new runs from the breaker box? Yeah, new runs or live with blank coverplates on your wall. NM cable should be fine for extending the run.
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Jan 27, 2021 01:12
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So thanks to this thread I now have a natural gas line going to my backyard and an outdoor generator hookup box.    Thanks so much to this thread for letting me know about tri-mode generators! The electrician was $3,000 but that's because I had to upgrade my entire panel from 100 amp to 200 amp to accommodate the extra breakers needed (my 100 amp was maxed out). The plumber only charged me $650 for the outdoor pipe which I thought was a steal (no clue if it is or not). I love the way it's set up because the opening to the gas pipe is in the backyard (behind the fence, which is locked mostly because we let our pet cats in the yard all day) even though the electric hookup is on the other side of the fence. This way I can have the generator in my backyard instead of the side of the house and I don't have to worry about someone stealing it at 3AM. I do have one really strange question though. Am I being OCD or is this a really sloppy caulking job?  I genuinely can't tell if it's my legit OCD or not so it's an honest question. Is this something only a crazy person like me would notice/care about or does that genuinely look like poo poo to anyone else? If it's the latter, how can I clean it up? One of those bathroom shower border strips to go around it or something? angryrobots posted:"Balancing" in your case refers to distributing the 120v circuits between the two available legs of power in such a way that the load is even or close to it on the two legs. Some of this is common sense, some is testing based. It doesn't have to be perfect - mostly when wiring the panel you can just make sure that you don't put way more 120v circuits on the same leg. Thank you! I was finally able to get a pic of the inside of the panel yesterday.   I take it this means the electrician didn't really do a good job balancing the load? It looks like a majority is on one "leg" (I am so sorry if I am using the wrong terms; I am a moron with this stuff which is why I hired someone). Also does everything else in the panel look OK? The electrician came highly recommended but there were a few things that worry me: 1) he had to come back because he forgot to reconnect the doorbell, 2) he had to come back AGAIN because when it rained out there was a puddle under the electrical box; apparently he forgot to put caulk outside the house where the pipe connects, and 3) he put the front cover on wrong; the transfer switch safety mechanism was BEHIND the cover so I couldn't access it until he came back and re-did the front cover. Does it look like an OK job was done/anything worrisome in my photos that I should be concerned with?
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Feb 1, 2021 20:11
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Chumbawumba4ever97 posted:
The breakers are mostly on one side, but side of the panel doesn't matter much, since every other slot is on the opposite leg. Your 240 Volt breakers are double-wide, since they need both legs and neighboring slots are on different legs. It might be hard to see now, but the bus bars are sort of like interlocking teeth.
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Feb 1, 2021 20:31
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That caulking is indeed sloppy, but he's an electrician, not a caulker. The panel's fine, it's balanced as stated before, it's pretty sloppy and not excellent work, but looks mostly technically correct, a lot of jurisdictions would require more AFCIs. Nice that you got everything figured out and upgraded, $3000 is a great price for a service upgrade.
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Feb 1, 2021 21:31
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How reasonable, and likely that it's legal, is it to install your own 220v line? It would run through an existing underground pathway to my garage.
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Feb 1, 2021 23:56
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The Wonder Weapon posted:How reasonable, and likely that it's legal, is it to install your own 220v line? It would run through an existing underground pathway to my garage. It's usually pretty reasonable, it's legal in all 50 states as long as you're the homeowner AFAIK. Gonna need a lot more info, by underground pathway you mean conduit? How old is it? What material is it? Is it the correct size for the wires you want to run through it? What do you want to power? Etc etc etc. For example if you live somewhere with severe frost heave (NE) and the conduit's more than a couple years old I guarantee you it's separated underground and you'll never get a new wire through there. If you live in California and it's brand new it should be easy as pie.
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Feb 2, 2021 00:15
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Elviscat posted:The panel's fine, it's balanced as stated before, it's pretty sloppy and not excellent work, but looks mostly technically correct, a lot of jurisdictions would require more AFCIs. If the panel is in the same location, probably snuck under needing to install AFCI/GFCI breakers due to it just being a change not an extension. Based on the number of wire nuts in that panel, it doesn't look like any new runs were done. Depending on your opinion of AFCIs, that may be a good thing. Certainly is a lower-cost thing, considering 2020 NEC would require those expensive GFCIs for the 240 circuits.
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Feb 2, 2021 00:16
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B-Nasty posted:If the panel is in the same location, probably snuck under needing to install AFCI/GFCI breakers due to it just being a change not an extension. Based on the number of wire nuts in that panel, it doesn't look like any new runs were done. Yeah that's what I figured, but if your electrician Is sneaking around codes that would be bad. I don't give a poo poo about AFCIs, and if I lived somewhere they weren't required I wouldn't think twice about installing a panel without a single one.
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Feb 2, 2021 00:50
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Elviscat posted:It's usually pretty reasonable, it's legal in all 50 states as long as you're the homeowner AFAIK. I don't know anything about the electric run to my garage, to be honest. I presume there's some tube installed underground that the actual romex runs through. I was hoping I'd be able to feed a new line through that existing passageway. I live in Western NY, with a frost line of roughly three feet, for what that's worth.
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Feb 2, 2021 00:50
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The Wonder Weapon posted:I don't know anything about the electric run to my garage, to be honest. I presume there's some tube installed underground that the actual romex runs through. I was hoping I'd be able to feed a new line through that existing passageway. I live in Western NY, with a frost line of roughly three feet, for what that's worth. That's not a great thing to presume. If there is you should be able to find the end of it on both sides. Chances are better than average that what you have going on there is a run of direct burial between buildings. Because that's how this usually goes down.
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Feb 2, 2021 01:19
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Motronic posted:That's not a great thing to presume. If there is you should be able to find the end of it on both sides. Well that's annoying. Why not do something of a French drain style, so that you have a tube you can add to later if you desire? For a residential project it's not like it would need to add much cost, since the runs are so short.
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Feb 2, 2021 02:25
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The Wonder Weapon posted:Well that's annoying. Why not do something of a French drain style, so that you have a tube you can add to later if you desire? For a residential project it's not like it would need to add much cost, since the runs are so short. A conduit is nothing like a french drain and the reason it's not done is because most people hire the lowest bidder to get a job done and doing anything other than direct burial requires more work and more materials. This is why you should at the very least know what the hell you're asking for when contracting a job out.
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Feb 2, 2021 02:30
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Thanks a bunch for the replies. The reason I have a few AFCIs is there's a room in our house that only has two prong outlets. So that's where he put AFCIs.  Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 02:30
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The Wonder Weapon posted:Well that's annoying. Why not do something of a French drain style, so that you have a tube you can add to later if you desire? For a residential project it's not like it would need to add much cost, since the runs are so short. Can you find the ends of the run? If you put some effort in exploring and stuff we can probably help you out. It does seem that you're kind of unsure about what to do in general, so hiring a professional would be a good move too, of course.
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Feb 2, 2021 03:44
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The Wonder Weapon posted:Well that's annoying. Why not do something of a French drain style, so that you have a tube you can add to later if you desire? For a residential project it's not like it would need to add much cost, since the runs are so short. That's a good idea in theory... The problem is that anything underground will crack in time, then fill in with silt and roots. Also, turning corners can be a pain. The thicker the cables, the harder they are to work with.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:05
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The Wonder Weapon posted:Well that's annoying. Why not do something of a French drain style, so that you have a tube you can add to later if you desire? For a residential project it's not like it would need to add much cost, since the runs are so short. The term you're looking for is "buried conduit." Check the wire where it comes out of the garage panel and see how it goes into the ground. If there's a pipe there, then MAYBE you have conduit the whole way. If not, then it's direct burial all the way back. Depending on snow cover, it's pretty easy to get a survey to find out where the buried power lines are; this is typically a no-cost service of the "call before you dig" people in your area.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:02
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:The term you're looking for is "buried conduit." Check the wire where it comes out of the garage panel and see how it goes into the ground. If there's a pipe there, then MAYBE you have conduit the whole way. If not, then it's direct burial all the way back. Depending on snow cover, it's pretty easy to get a survey to find out where the buried power lines are; this is typically a no-cost service of the "call before you dig" people in your area. The "call before you dig" services typically only locate utility owned services, not the private stuff on your property.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:42
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Elviscat posted:The "call before you dig" services typically only locate utility owned services, not the private stuff on your property. Yeah, around here you're paying one of the big electrical contractors to come out with their fancy rear end high voltage fox and hound kit if you want anything like "where's the line from my house panel to the outbuilding". The gear is astoundingly expensive, but then can set the toner up on anything in your garage and walk the yard to find location and depth with the "hound" part of the the kit.
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Feb 2, 2021 21:52
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The guys local to me charge about $150/hour to do magnetic resonance locating (what you're describing) or $200/hr for ground penetrating radar. If it's a short run to the garage a shovel is more economical, and then you can put your new cable/conduit in when you're done!
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Feb 2, 2021 22:32
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