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GFCI question: is "failing only under load" a real thing? I have a GFCI "spa panel" running a 6kw outdoor sauna. It's been working fine for years, but now trips as soon as the heating elements get power. I checked for shorts, moisture, and other problems and didn't see any. The heating elements don't have continuity to ground. I only checked one of 2 for resistance but it was fine. (couldn't see how internal break in a heating element would short to ground or overload the breaker?). The control panel uses 120v for controls, and uses big relays to engage the 220v power for the heater. With the heating element disconnected, the relays seem to activate OK, without tripping the breaker. Interestingly, the control panel runs a 40w light without tripping the breaker - the light circuit is 120 and only pulls from one pole on the 220v breaker. My next step is finding a non-GFI breaker to see what happens, but I'm wondering if "only trip on load" is really a failure mode since that's what it's supposed to do if there really is a problem... jailbait#3 fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 02:18
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jailbait#3 posted:GFCI question: is "failing only under load" a real thing? I have a GFCI "spa panel" running a 6kw outdoor sauna. It's been working fine for years, but now trips as soon as the heating elements get power. I checked for shorts, moisture, and other problems and didn't see any. The heating elements don't have continuity to ground. I only checked one of 2 for resistance but it was fine. (couldn't see how internal break in a heating element would short to ground or overload the breaker?). If it powers up but trips when the heating elements are engaged, every troubleshooting bone in my body says it's the heating elements not the breaker. GFI elements fail, but I've only seem them fail in the "trip immediately even with no load" state. Get those heater resistance, the breaker may be tripping on an instantaneous over current if one of those is faulted line-line internally. Check any other connections or anything downstream of those relays you can.
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Feb 24, 2021 03:21
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Elviscat posted:If it powers up but trips when the heating elements are engaged, every troubleshooting bone in my body says it's the heating elements not the breaker. They also fail in the wonderful "Don't ever trip" mode, but yeah, I'd be very suspicious of the heating elements. It could be a very small current leakage path, but something is causing the GFCI to fire.
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Feb 24, 2021 16:41
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sharkytm posted:They also fail in the wonderful "Don't ever trip" mode, but yeah, I'd be very suspicious of the heating elements. It could be a very small current leakage path, but something is causing the GFCI to fire. Thanks for the feedback. The second element passed the ohm-meter tester, so I threw in an ordinary breaker. No problem! If there is a leak to ground, I can't find it with my multimeter. I'm leaning toward crappy breaker, since the old GFI one was an Eaton BR type, used outdoors, and abused as an on-off switch. I'll replace the whole panel with something better and a proper switch when it warms up in the spring but this gets the sauna back in service.
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Feb 25, 2021 17:39
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jailbait#3 posted:Thanks for the feedback. The second element passed the ohm-meter tester, so I threw in an ordinary breaker. No problem!  DO NOT USE YOUR SAUNA WITHOUT GFI PROTECTION
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Feb 25, 2021 18:14
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Elviscat posted:
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Feb 25, 2021 18:58
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that's asking for trouble 
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Feb 25, 2021 19:02
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Elviscat posted:
Or at least make sure your life insurance is paid up.
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Feb 25, 2021 19:38
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jailbait#3 posted:Thanks for the feedback. The second element passed the ohm-meter tester, so I threw in an ordinary breaker. No problem! holy gently caress dude, don't. If you can't find the ground fault, it will find you. Replace the breaker with a GFCI at least. If that fixes the problem, then hooray it was a bad breaker. If not? Then you have a real fault somewhere that you need to fix. jfc you'd be better off taking a bath with your toaster.
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Feb 25, 2021 19:39
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DaveSauce posted:holy gently caress dude, don't. OK OK, I'll try to find another GFI breaker. FWIW, NEC doesn't require it (or say much about saunas). Some manufacturers specifically say DON'T use GFI (https://almostheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/KIP-Heater-Manual-Final-2020.pdf)
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Feb 25, 2021 20:24
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jailbait#3 posted:Some manufacturers specifically say DON'T use GFI (https://almostheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/KIP-Heater-Manual-Final-2020.pdf) Some manufacturers also aren't UL listed. (Or at least don't make it apparent anywhere.) I'm fairly certain any sauna would count as a wet room which would require any and all electrical inside it to be GFCI protected.
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Feb 25, 2021 20:31
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Well first, for some reason I misinterpreted sauna as hot tub in my head, so that makes this a bit less obvious. But that said: jailbait#3 posted:OK OK, I'll try to find another GFI breaker. FWIW, NEC doesn't require it (or say much about saunas). If it was working before, and isn't now, something changed. Either there is a ground fault somewhere, or the GFCI needs to be replaced. Some electrical equipment doesn't play well with GFCIs, but it would have never worked if that were the case. More importantly: does YOUR heater manufacturer say don't use a GFCI? A quick google shows that some DO specify that you use a GFCI, so I wouldn't take one manufacturer's recommendation as gospel. Personally I wouldn't risk it. Seems pretty obvious to me that anything in a sauna should be on GFCI, and since it used to work fine then you have no real reason not to keep it on a GFCI.
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Feb 25, 2021 20:45
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DaveSauce posted:
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Feb 25, 2021 21:24
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: edit: apparently, saunas are special and there isn't a requirement for a GFCI in the NEC. I'd still put one in.
sharkytm fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Feb 26, 2021 |
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Feb 26, 2021 13:14
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I was definitely thinking about a tub of hot water not a hot steamy room. I would still gfci it because gfci everything.
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Feb 26, 2021 17:45
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So I’ve done a fair bit of electrical work, and I’m confident I could run a proper receptacle for the TV I want to wall mount, but someone please play devils advocate and talk me out of this.
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Mar 2, 2021 18:48
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MrYenko posted:So I’ve done a fair bit of electrical work, and I’m confident I could run a proper receptacle for the TV I want to wall mount, but someone please play devils advocate and talk me out of this. It's the right way of doing it actually... I'd just suggest the two gang one instead. Edit: Mine came with just some 14-2 romex, not a weird "power connector"
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Mar 2, 2021 18:51
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MrYenko posted:So I’ve done a fair bit of electrical work, and I’m confident I could run a proper receptacle for the TV I want to wall mount, but someone please play devils advocate and talk me out of this. I'm not a fan of the "shoved cable in a wall" look. I always go with the receptacles that have the actual plugs on the plate. It's a little more expensive but it looks way more professional.
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Mar 2, 2021 18:51
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MrYenko posted:So I’ve done a fair bit of electrical work, and I’m confident I could run a proper receptacle for the TV I want to wall mount, but someone please play devils advocate and talk me out of this. I'd use the one Device Null linked, nowhere does that thing talk about being UL listed, meaning that in-wall connector isn't code compliant like they claim. I mean, I'd just wire a regular receptacle in with seperate LV rings for the cables, but that thing looks fine I guess.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:34
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Elviscat posted:I mean, I'd just wire a regular receptacle in with seperate LV rings for the cables If you're cutting in old-work boxes anyway, you might as well just run it as a new circuit. I guess the big advantage to the product shown is that your source receptacle can be over from the stud bay where your vertical run is. This usually isn't really a problem, because receps tend to be in the center of a wall, which would be the best TV mount position anyway.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:06
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B-Nasty posted:If you're cutting in old-work boxes anyway, you might as well just run it as a new circuit. I guess the big advantage to the product shown is that your source receptacle can be over from the stud bay where your vertical run is. This usually isn't really a problem, because receps tend to be in the center of a wall, which would be the best TV mount position anyway. Like an entirely new circuit from the panel? Why would you do that for a single load as small as a TV? I think the idea is this thing plugs into your surge protector in your entertainment center, and then provides a super neat tucked in look behind the TV.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:11
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Elviscat posted:Like an entirely new circuit from the panel? Why would you do that for a single load as small as a TV? I meant extending an existing branch from a nearby receptacle, not a new home run.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:43
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B-Nasty posted:I meant extending an existing branch from a nearby receptacle, not a new home run. Oh yeah, that's my thought too.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:42
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Blew the fuse on the furnace reset switch and can't find a 15a S-type fuse anywhere, only SL. Google says they're not interchangeable but it seems weird that I can't find an S if this is a common use. I should not put an SL in this thing, right? Fake edit: I considered a wheat penny but I'm not that far gone yet
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Mar 4, 2021 16:57
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BonerGhost posted:Blew the fuse on the furnace reset switch and can't find a 15a S-type fuse anywhere, only SL. Google says they're not interchangeable but it seems weird that I can't find an S if this is a common use. Where does Google say they're not interchangeable? SL fuses are just a slow blow version of type S fuses, meant for motor loads, which a furnace would be. My local Lowes says they have 2 2 packs of 15A type S fuses in stock either way, and like 15 type SLs. I'm very concerned that your furnace blew a 15A fuse though, I suspect you might have a bigger problem there.
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Mar 4, 2021 17:24
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Elviscat posted:Where does Google say they're not interchangeable? I'm also very concerned about blowing that fuse. Previously there was a regular breaker on that circuit, which I recall being a 20a but must have been a 15a. I was switching a few things around on the panel last night and put it on a 20a DF breaker because that's what I had to hand and it was late and I was tired. Flipped breaker on this morning after checking I hadn't crossed hot and neutral, power went to the reset switch but no further, and when I flipped the reset switch the magic smoke came out. Thing is, I'm pretty sure the reset switch is wired correctly because it was working just fine before I swapped the breaker last night. Anyway a bunch of blogs really impressed that s-type is for heavier duty stuff, and that's what was in there before. The max amps on the plate for the furnace is only about 11.1 E: every place nearby that said they had S-type did not, for some reason. Which strikes me as odd but supply issues these days 
BonerGhost fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 18:38
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I wouldn't worry about the fuse type, if inrush current from the motor blows it, oh well, but it won't because they're all slow-blow/motor rated these days. I'd focus on troubleshooting that switch/your furnace before replacing that fuse though, you just switched out the breaker and didn't touch the switch, correct? And not because the breaker was tripping? Do you have a multimeter with a non-contact current sensor? Good thing the fuses usually come in 2 packs.
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Mar 4, 2021 18:45
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Finally made my trek up into the attic crawlspace to untangle this gordian knot I found replacing my bathroom vent fan (don't worry, it's cellulose insulation and I work coveralls and a respirator anyway): I'd actually been up there before; I had run a junction that allows me one single outlet at the entrance of the crawlspace to power any lighting/tools you might need to do work up there. It's not a space you can store stuff in or move around it (maybe 3 and a half feet tall at most) but this I hadn't found until I'd replaced the bathroom vent fan. Now it's all safe: 
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Mar 5, 2021 01:23
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Just a li'l ol' flying splice. Looks nice now, though you should staple everything within 12" of the box. Those newer NM cables could use some stapling too.
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Mar 5, 2021 02:10
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Update to my generator post. Interlock arrived in the mail, install was fairy painless. The 50AMP weather tight outlet and plug also arrived, but those will have to wait until I find some 6/3 w/ground back in stock. I removed the generator whip and capped the opening until I finish up the outlet install.  
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Mar 5, 2021 05:40
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Elviscat posted:Just a li'l ol' flying splice. The scale is a bit off but they are stapled at ~12 inches and the newer ones are stapled at every joist they can be; I'd have to cut up blocking to add more points to secure that.
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Mar 5, 2021 16:19
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I got a $6300 quote to run cat6 through my new(built in 1999) house for 7 drops so I will be probably frequenting this thread because that seems insane to me. Lots of good info to read through.
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Mar 5, 2021 18:50
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KidDynamite posted:I got a $6300 quote to run cat6 through my new(built in 1999) house for 7 drops so I will be probably frequenting this thread because that seems insane to me. Lots of good info to read through. Yeah, that's a "gently caress off" price lol.
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Mar 5, 2021 19:15
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KidDynamite posted:I got a $6300 quote to run cat6 through my new(built in 1999) house for 7 drops so I will be probably frequenting this thread because that seems insane to me. Lots of good info to read through. You're in luck. The rules for running low voltage cables is MUCH more lax than mains voltage ones. That being said, that all depends on how your house was built. Basement, crawlspace or slab? How many stories? 1999 shouldn't have any surprises beyond fire blocks. Well, maybe fiberglass insulation too since it's extremely itchy. Wear your PPE when dealing with that stuff: goggles, dust mask, gloves and long sleeves/pants. If you're doing it now and you need to crawl around in your attic, then you're in luck. It's the time of year to do that during the day. During the summer, I've had to do attic work at 4 in the morning and I was still sweating. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 19:18
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Protip if you do get some incidental fiberglass on you, you can usually get it off with some duct tape. Doesn't work for lungs and eyeballs though
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Mar 6, 2021 08:26
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Speak for yourself. My Carhartt jacket is impregnated with fiberglass, and now I'm immune, like one of those monks with the hairshirts. Don't breathe it though.
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Mar 6, 2021 08:34
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I'm going to swap out our gas cooktop with an induction one. I'm reviewing the installation instructions, and there are two sets of wiring instructions depending on local code (I'm in Georgia, which follows NEC):first posted:Where local codes permit connecting the appliance-grounding conductor to the neutral (white) wire (see figure 3) second posted:If cooktop is used in a new branch circuit installation (1996 NEC), mobile home, recreational vehicle, or where local codes DO NOT permit grounding to the neutral (white) wire (see figure 4) How do I know which set of instructions to follow? I've tried looking at the code via the NFPA website, but I don't have the background knowledge to understand what I'm reading.
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Mar 6, 2021 19:00
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You're going to follow the second set of instructions for new installations, as most likely you're going to have to run a new circuit.
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Mar 6, 2021 19:28
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hooah posted:I'm going to swap out our gas cooktop with an induction one. I'm reviewing the installation instructions, and there are two sets of wiring instructions depending on local code (I'm in Georgia, which follows NEC): Are you running a new circuit for the cooktop? If you are you have to run a new wire with a grounding conductor. That code exception, bonding the grounding conductor to the neutral is intended for old installations where a 3 wire ungrounded cable was run, and it would be cost prohibitive to replace, "grandfathering" basically. A lot of cooktops and ranges use straight 240V (line-line) connections for the heating elements and a tiny amount of 120V (line-neutral) for some electronics/controls, so bonding the case to the neutral (which is at ground potential) is "safe enough" for retro installs, but since there's a small chance that the neutral can become energized in certain fault conditions, it's not safe enough for modern installations, and a seperate, dedicated grounding conductor is required. I hope that helps, I can go in more detail if need
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Mar 6, 2021 19:32
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I don't think I'll need a new circuit, luckily. There's already a junction box there, and the breaker box has a 240-volt 30-amp circuit dedicated to the cook top. Our house was built two years ago, so whatever the recent code is is what would apply.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:05
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